Looking back, I wonder if Yui's death actually traumatized Shinji. Gendo abandoning him certainly did but what about the [url]wiki.evageeks.org/Contact_Experiment[/url]? I only ask because in Episode 15 he mentioned not remembering her face. But then there are all of the flashbacks he had in Episode 16, 20, EoE, and the connection he made between Rei and Yui in 24. Of course it's possible he simply repressed/forgot these memories and [url]wiki.evageeks.org/Leliel[/url] messing with his head "awakened" them for lack of a better word. However, that wouldn't explain the scene at the end of 20, where he hears Gendo and Yui decide on a name for him. Obviously, it would be impossible for him to hear, much less remember the conversation. Were Yui's memories somehow mixing with his in the LCL?

Shinji mentions that he does barely remember seeing the Eva, although much later. It's quite likely that he would have cried for a while and missed his mom, but being a young child would probably not have been traumatized in the way that an older child with better memories would. It's quite possible he didn't comprehend where his mother went. Gendo abandoning him would have been entirely comprehensible and therefore traumatic.

The conversation he hears comes from Yui's memory, probably because of Yui making contact with him and showing him how he got his name before she "gives birth" to him a second time.

I have another question about Episode 16. Just before Yui breaks out of Leliel, she appears in silhouette to Shinji while he holds something. Just what exactly is it supposed to be? Here's some pictures for reference:



The only other thread that brought this up was this one from last year: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/16040/Episode-16-questions/

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/9135/Shinjis-glowing-red-marble/
http://forum.evageeks.org/post/225451/So-what-is-the-significance-of-kid-Shinji-holding-a-core/

The original ANF thread seems to be missing from our archive, sadly.

Though, I do think that the significance of Shinji holding a red marble is to visually foreshadow all of the souls that GNR collects during Third Impact. Yes, it's a marble. But it might mean so much more in the context of the show.

According to the second thread Reichu linked to, EvaMonkey was the one who started the ANF thread.

I say it's an anal bead. You can imagine what it means in context.

Thematically, if Kid!Shinji is still the place holder for Leliel, it could be signifying the angel offering up its life to Yui (EVA-01).

Or if it is Shinji, his passive desire to die, and Yui passively acknowleding the fact. Y'know, whichevs'. "Mom, would you please kill me?" "Hmm? Oh, maybe later honey."


If the first is true, that means Shinji is pretty much Marvin... I wonder if Yui & company planned that...

My gut reaction is that it symbolizes Shinji offering his soul to his mother, which allows them to sync to an extent that she can go berserk and tear free of Leliel. But I'd have to see the ep again before I committed to that idea.

The idea of Leliel offering it's life to Yui does appeal to me a lot, to be honest. Leliel did seem significantly bro-level in it's mental contact compared to Arael and Armisael.

Inserting Shinji!Leliel right after Yui makes contact with Shinji!Shinji seems like way too much of a non sequitur for that to be what they were actually going for...

On one level, it's probably supposed to be a fuzzily remembered memory on Shinji's part. He's showing a marble to his mom, whose face is obscured because of his aforementioned inability to remember it. On the other -- the one that people are interested in -- I really don't know. It being a loose representation of "Shinji contacting Eva-01's soul" makes the most sense to me, but does still feel a little lacking.

Wasn't it theorized in ANF archive way back when that the marble = core (Eva-01) or Shinji's soul (tiny red dot ala EoE)?

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Wasn't it theorized in ANF archive way back when that the marble = core (Eva-01) or Shinji's soul (tiny red dot ala EoE)?

I remember the former speculation, which is why I mentioned it. Another one I recall is that the marble is "life energy" that Yui is giving Shinji so that he'll survive the endeavor, but I'm not sure I like that as much as an interpretation that represents a discovery or epiphany of some sort.

Reichu wrote:Inserting Shinji!Leliel right after Yui makes contact with Shinji!Shinji seems like way too much of a non sequitur for that to be what they were actually going for...

On one level, it's probably supposed to be a fuzzily remembered memory on Shinji's part. He's showing a marble to his mom, whose face is obscured because of his aforementioned inability to remember it. On the other -- the one that people are interested in -- I really don't know. It being a loose representation of "Shinji contacting Eva-01's soul" makes the most sense to me, but does still feel a little lacking.

It's entirely possible it's both, since Leliel is claiming Shinji's unconscious as it's own identity.

AuraTwilight wrote:It's entirely possible it's both, since Leliel is claiming Shinji's unconscious as it's own identity.

On what basis do you think Leliel is doing that, versus just using an aspect of Shinji's mind as a means of communicating with him? "A form you are comfortable with" and etc.

I mean, that's what I meant to say, sorry.

To me, the point of that brief scene is more that it's a vague childhood memory, possibly the counterpart to that one shadowy image of Yui bending forward that seems to be the only thing Shinji recalls, something like, "Oh mommy, look what I found!" and as such a scenario where Baby Shinji probably got positive reaffirmation and was just innocently happy about it without reading any more complicated stuff into it.

One big aspect of episode 16, in both the introspection scenes and the actual plot, is an examination of the weird and complex relationship with positive reaffirmation, on the one hand he really desperatelywants it, on the other hand he can't help but worry about wether it's real, wether it's really for him, and that as any trait that stands out, it might make people dislike him.

Shinji also remembers Yui as any four year old would see their mom, basically this angelic, calming sweet housewife, and this is kind of where it truly begins to dawn on him that there's a connection between her and the horrible monster and cause of all his hardships that he perceives Unit One as. Hence the reference in the title to the psychological mechanism of "splitting" in the title, seeing someone as all good or all bad at any given moment an not quite connecting their good and bad traits into a whole.
Normal for a 3/4 year old, but while he tries hard to get a differentiated view of, and understand Gendo at this point in the story, Yui simply isn't there for Shinji to have this teenage rebellion process toward her, or so he thinks.

Finding another piece of a shared happy memory is also a simple/straightforward act of recognition and reconnection. "Oh, hi son. IT's me, mom. Remember this?"

I don't think it's got anything to do with Leliel at this point because Shinji is mostly interacting with Yui in that sequence - note that he's wearing different clothes (possibly some nursery uniform?) than the manifestation of Leliel (in the oversized shirt from when Gendo sent him away)



As for the contact experiment in general, it's implied very strongly that it's not simply that Shinji was too young to retain anything, but that he's repressed whatever raw unprocessed recollection he's got of the event. (people start to permanently remember things at individually varying ages, for example mine go very far back into m tiny toddler days while one of my sisters hardly remembers anything from before the age of 6/7)
- after all he recalls a few things from before the incident (if not much more than a few blurry images of Yui and the vague sense that everything was better), and such a huge incident as losing your mom is bound to leave a mark.
We already get a glimpse on this in ep 16 :"...but mother was smiling!"... which doesn't match with what Shinji's been told later of Gendo flat-out murdering her and contributes to his highly ambigous feelings toward Gendo. In ep 21 we see that she was indeed spruting hopeful prophecies and generally acting like someone whose plans have come to fruition before she was absorbed.

But we get the most complete look into this (at least as far as Shinji's perspective is concerned) in ep 20, complete with a little flashback pic featuring Naoko and a "once more with clarity" rerun of the ep 1 confrontation where Shinji realizes that he'd seen EVA 01 before Gendo's "invitation letter".
And from his general agitated tone/expression here and the half-remembered, vague impression he reiterates ("It was the reason I ran away. That day I ran away from both father and mother"), it was a fairly horrifying event he couldn't make sense of, especially not as a little kid.

Besides, even if we don't remember our time as babies, the experiences we had at the time still shape us by influencing how the networks in our heads develop, what connections are formed and how they're weighted. So abuse or traumatic events suffered at, say, age 2 (where you're most definitely to taking away any "biographic" memories) can definitely affect someone especially if it results in a person they spent their whole lives bonding with being gone.

Of course, Gendo being completely emotionally unavailable after the incident and throwing his hands up soon after had a very similar if not worse effect, as there's a deliberate choice involved there while Yui's dissapearance was something everyone but Fuyutsuki thought to be a freak accident, and accidents (or murder) commonly come with the implication that the person would've staid if they could.

This is interesting, I don't even remember if the marble is actually red but its meaning was probably suggested somewhere in the episode. Like, it's a childhood memory that is triggered by turning into lcl (and merging with the core? Kind of forgot) and it's full of light and stuff while the marble-like angel takes Shinji away through shadows. I remember the feeling I had was of Shinji meeting something in the core and turning back on the idea of giving up on life. Berserk mode is supposed to have mother and son working together, it all looks like some hint on what's inside the core and its functions as a container, just like the angel with 01, through Shinji's triggered memory of a red marble. So yeah, "look mom here's your soul". I bet the actual lines are spread somewhere in some mirrored scene. I just don't know what's the answer Shinji gives to "are you ready?" since he felt like shit a couple of second before.

unz wrote:This is interesting, I don't even remember if the marble's is actually red but its meaning was probably suggested somewhere in the episode. Like, it's a childhood memory that is triggered by turning into lcl (and merging with the core? Kind of forgot) and it's full of light and stuff while the marble-like angel takes Shinji away through shadows. I remember the feeling I had was of Shinji meeting something in the core and turning back on the idea of giving up on life. Berserk mode is supposed to have mother and son working together, it's probably an hint on what's inside the core and its functions as a container, just like the angel, through Shinji's triggered memory of a red marble. So yeah, "look mom here's your soul". I bet the actual lines are spread somewhere in some mirrored scene. I just don't know what's the answer Shinji gives to "are you ready?" since he felt like shit a couple of second before.

Shinji didn't do that until Episode 20.

Will check it out