Favorite crazy Evangelion theories

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:23 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:You just said it. Rei collected their souls for Instrumentality with Lilith's power. Shinji had nothing to do with that. Rei let him decide what she was going to do but she did all the legwork herself.


Yes, that. Thank you!

View Original PostReichu wrote:It doesn't happen. Asuka isn't disemboweled and Asuka isn't eaten. That would be her mom the Eva. Hence, it's a dumb conclusion.


She wasn't disemboweled, but she might have been eaten. That's not an entirely dumb conclusion, given that we see an MPE spitting out Unit 02's head.

"Asuka had her guts ripped out! She got eaten! She got strangled twice! Feel sorry for her!"
"Uhh, only one of those things actually happened..."


Er, she symbolically had her guts ripped out and kinda was eaten, and she really was strangled twice. She actually does deserve your sympathy at that point.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby EvangelionGodMode » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:24 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:You just said it. Rei collected their souls for Instrumentality with Lilith's power. Shinji had nothing to do with that. Rei let him decide what she was going to do but she did all the legwork herself.


So im right, Rei brought everyone into instrumentality, and with the power bestowed within him by lilith he ends instrumentality and brings Asuka back bc he wanted to, not because she had the will to come back.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:27 pm

View Original PostEvangelionGodMode wrote:So im right, Rei brought everyone into instrumentality, and with the power bestowed within him by liltih he ends instrumentality and brings Asuka back bc he wanted to, not because she had the will to come back.


How the hell do you get that? Why are you completely and totally ignoring what Rei and Kaworu said?

You are not right. You are totally and completely wrong. Just give it up already and move on.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby EvangelionGodMode » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:33 pm

Rei and Kaworu just said that anybody has the ability to return from the sea of LCL, which is lilith's egg. How can Asuka return from the lcl if her soul had left her body before instrumentality happend. Answer is the theory that Shinji brought Asuka back bc was gifted godlike powers from lilith and he desired her to and choose her to be with him so he wasn't alone.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:38 pm

View Original PostEvangelionGodMode wrote:What i don't understand is how Misato and Asuka both were in instrumentality if Shinji wasn't a god and didn't bring them back on his own free choice

Rei collected the souls of the recently dead. Misato and Asuka were not special.

And nobody's souls left their body before HIP, except Shinji's.

More conclusions I think are dumb.

  • Seeds of Life actually have both fruits. The fusion of Adam and Lilith is forbidden for no real good reason. Lilith wants an S2 engine in NGE2 because hers broke or got lost or something.
  • EoE should never have been made. Original ending was perfect the way it was!
  • DC episodes and EoE are terrible retconned piles of shit.
  • "Berserk" doesn't mean "out of control". It means "audibly grunting".
  • Yui never actually controls Eva-01. The Eva has a mind of its own that is neither Yui nor Shinji.
  • Kaworu is a clone of Kiel or Gendo or any other character that wasn't there for the contact experiment.
  • Sadamoto's best work is done alone.
  • Being found in a bathtub caused Asuka to slip into a coma.
  • The giant tits on Kaworu's angel statue are only there because titties are awesome. There is no deeper reason.
Last edited by Reichu on Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby EvangelionGodMode » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:40 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Rei collected the souls of the recently dead. Misato and Asuka were not special.

More conclusions I think are dumb.

  • Seeds of Life actually have both fruits. The fusion of Adam and Lilith is forbidden for no real good reason. Lilith wants an S2 engine in NGE2 because hers broke or got lost or something.
  • EoE should never have been made. Original ending was perfect the way it was!
  • DC episodes and EoE are terrible retconned piles of shit.
  • "Berserk" doesn't mean "out of control". It means "audibly grunting".
  • Yui never actually controls Eva-01. The Eva has a mind of its own that is neither Yui nor Shinji.
  • Kaworu is a clone of Kiel or Gendo or any other character that wasn't there for the contact experiment.
  • Sadamoto's best work is done alone.
  • Being found in a bathtub caused Asuka to slip into a coma.
  • The giant tits on Kaworu's angel statue are only there because titties are awesome. There is no deeper reason.


That makes more sense if that is true the thing about Rei collecting the recently dead souls.
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:56 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:[*]The Eva has a mind of its own that is neither Yui nor Shinji.


That was true in the manga, wasn't it? I remember a man-sized Unit 01 trying to get jiggy with Shinji.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:09 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:That was true in the manga, wasn't it? I remember a man-sized Unit 01 trying to get jiggy with Shinji.

It might have been. I'm not sure if it was ever really explained/justified enough to say what the hell was going on there one way or another. I was referring specifically to anime canon, any which way. Odd notions of the Eva having its own mind were around long before the relevant parts of the manga, and, naturally, they're still around.

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Postby Chuckman » Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:10 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:It doesn't happen. Asuka isn't disemboweled and Asuka isn't eaten. That would be her mom the Eva. Hence, it's a dumb conclusion.

I'm not sure many people actually believe it happened to Asuka, versus her fans resorting to hyperbole in a misguided attempt to appeal to the emotions of others. Dumb in its own way.

"Asuka had her guts ripped out! She got eaten! She got strangled twice! Feel sorry for her!"
"Uhh, only one of those things actually happened..."

(Obviously Shinji didn't actually strangle her the first time it was shown, since Asuka was lying dead in pieces somewhere and Shinji was a puddle in his mom's spine. It was a visual metaphor. METAPHOR!)


Evas transfer the sensations to the pilot and at high synchronzation, sympathetic injuries appear. Asuka experienced being disembowled, torn apart, and eaten, so for all intents and purposes those things happened to her.

Saying that she was disembowled rather than experience disembowlment is really just verbal shorthand.

Also the Eva does have a mind of its own that isn't Yui or Shinji, unless you think Yui preferred to dismember and eat the quivering flesh of her enemies.

Maybe she did, that's hot.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:13 am

If you watch that scene with Asuka closely, true, she may not have been disemboweled... but there's one hell of a lot of blood coming out of that eye socket, and whether or not her arm was truly split in half I believe is open for debate.

I will certainly support the notion that Asuka experienced everything that happened to her while she was inside that Evangelion. It is not something that can be disputed, as we know from the show's canon that the pilots are synchronized with what their Evangelions experience with a suitable level of synch. So, whether or not she actually had her guts torn out is moot-- she was made to feel it as if it was reality. Since I don't think anybody is arguing against that what is perceived in the brain is what matters to the individual, it seems safe to declare that for all intents and purposes that what happened to Asuka's Evangelion, to Asuka, happened to her.

With regard to her eye, there is concrete evidence that it was affected IRL-- check for gushing blood. When it comes to her arm, I've heard as many arguments that it was just symbolized or that we were seeing what it felt like to Asuka (both valid) or that she was at such a high level of synch at that point that her arm really was rent in two. Regardless of what you support, there's no getting around that Asuka felt it.

@BlueBasilisk: Shinji has no power himself in instrumentality. Rei is the gunner-- Shinji simply gets to tell her where to aim. Shinji has absolutely no power to call his own. People return because they want to return, as is explicitly stated. There is no evidence whatsoever to support the claim that Shinji had power to do much of anything on his own, much less bring somebody back from instrumentality on his own.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:20 am

Yeah, I know Asuka felt stuff. But most of that stuff still didn't actually happen to her. Gets annoying, seeing Asuka given all the credit time and again, when (until the very end) she only received a single highly ambiguous injury. (Where's that blood supposed to be coming from? Eva-02 didn't get stabbed in the eye...) Almost nobody thinks about the poor Eva. That's Kyoko's body getting completely trashed. Asuka bleeds a bit and feels pain that isn't hers. Kyoko gets her skull pierced all the way through, her brains are falling out, her entire abdomen has been destroyed, and she's pretty roughed up everywhere else.

Asuka got off easy there.

Anyway, the verbal shorthand or whatever it's supposed to be is quite annoying. The pilots are not their Evas, and vice versa. Overidentification with their Evas is regarded in the show as a very bad thing. Doing it as a viewer makes you complicit. Heed the show's message of breaking free of childish dependencies!

It's also dumb in general to conflate a person with their bond beast. The dragonrider Lessa might feel her dragon getting fucked after its mating flight, but she is not herself getting fucked by the bronze. That's just... eeew. (She's probably getting fucked by the bronze's rider, though.) Those novels would be really confusing if their authors wrote the way Eva fans do...

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Also the Eva does have a mind of its own that isn't Yui or Shinji, unless you think Yui preferred to dismember and eat the quivering flesh of her enemies.

The Eva having a mind of its own independent of its soul has no basis in NGE's metaphysical rules, wherein the mind and soul are inextricably linked. We see soulless things, and they're effectively mindless. Since the Eva is Yui's body now -- it's the vessel her soul occupies -- the Eva's brain is thus her brain. Hence, the Eva's mind would arise from the interplay of Yui's soul with the Eva's flesh. Being in a different body explains why Yui might be prone to slightly different behavior -- albeit nothing totally beyond the bounds of what humans have shown themselves capable of.

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Postby BlueBasilisk » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:53 am

@Nuclear Lunchbox: That's what I was saying. Shinji's involvement was limited to a "Let's start/stop Instrumentality" choice. Everything else was Rei's doing.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:01 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:More conclusions I think are dumb.

  • Seeds of Life actually have both fruits. The fusion of Adam and Lilith is forbidden for no real good reason. Lilith wants an S2 engine in NGE2 because hers broke or got lost or something.


Yes, pay no attention to what Adam and Lilith actually do, they must be different because reasons.

  • "Berserk" doesn't mean "out of control". It means "audibly grunting".


  • In practice "Berserk" means "awake". That's the only way the term consistently makes sense.

  • The giant tits on Kaworu's angel statue are only there because titties are awesome. There is no deeper reason.


  • Sometimes an Angel statue is just an Angel statue.

    View Original PostReichu wrote:Asuka got off easy there.


    Oh, stop it. We see the blood pouring from her eye, and we see her arm cleft in twain. She didn't "get off easy there" by any means. Stop letting your hate for the character cloud your judgement!
    For my post-3I fic, go here.
    The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
    People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
    I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
    Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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    Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:05 am

    View Original PostReichu wrote:Yeah, I know Asuka felt stuff. But most of that stuff still didn't actually happen to her.

    If I hypnotize you into feeling like I stuck my finger up your pooper, the point is moot as to whether or not it happened to you-- while the reality may have been different from what happened inside your head, you know very well the sensations you experienced. But let's give a less mystical example (I am a hypnotist, but...) In episode one, Shinji synched with his Evangelion and felt his arm was being torn off. Presumably, if the visual cues are to be taken seriously, he also felt Sachiel's light spear go through his head. Did it happen to him in reality? No, it didn't... but that does not in any way discount that he felt the sensation of having his bloody arm ripped off.

    Let's break it down even more. When somebody slaps you across the face, you feel the slap because someone's hand came into contact with your face, which stimulates the nerves, there, which sends signals to your brain and lets you process that you were slapped in the face. When you're in an Evangelion, all you do is change the first step to what happens to your Evangelion. Eva gets punched in the face, your nerves are stimulated, and it tells your brain, "Heyo, I've been punched in the face! Feel pain!"

    Your argument's dismissal of the signals Asuka's brain is sending by saying, "Yeah, Asuka felt stuff" ignores that when your nerves send a signal to your brain, it doesn't matter if that thing happened in a reality you can observe or not. It's the answer to the Matrix question-- if you think you're eating a wonderful steak but you're only hooked up to a computer, to everybody else's point of view, you're a loon; to you, however, you're eating that steak and receiving all the sensations of doing so. When Neo gets kicked, he takes damage in the real world. Voila.

    Of course, what you've said also begs the question of whether or not Asuka's injuries were truly only in her mind. If you recall when Bardiel attacks Shinji while it is possessing Eva-03, there are marks around Shinji's neck and the skin is compressed. In addition to feeling what his Evangelion is feeling, very real things are happening to his body-- namely, he is actually being strangled. When the synchronization is cut, he slumps forward, and his body language implies that he is both neither feeling what the Eva is feeling, nor is it actually happening to his body. Even if obvious implications weren't enough, the show also notes that when the synchronization rate is lowered, the pilot will not feel what is happening to their Evangelion as much. By extension, enough synch and the things happen to them, eg. Shinji getting strangled inside the entry plug.

    View Original PostReichu wrote:Gets annoying, seeing Asuka given all the credit time and again, when (until the very end) she only received a single highly ambiguous injury. (Where's that blood supposed to be coming from? Eva-02 didn't get stabbed in the eye...)

    I think you're forgetting a lance...?

    View Original PostReichu wrote:Almost nobody thinks about the poor Eva. That's Kyoko's body getting completely trashed. Asuka bleeds a bit and feels pain that isn't hers. Kyoko gets her skull pierced all the way through, her brains are falling out, her entire abdomen has been destroyed, and she's pretty roughed up everywhere else.

    This is probably because we have no person to relate to, and it is also no excuse to discount what happened to Asuka. I don't see anybody discounting what happened to Eva-02. Just because we're not talking about Kyoko doesn't mean her problems don't exist, and it's a shame that your argument ignores Asuka in the same way that you claim us to be ignoring Kyoko.

    View Original PostReichu wrote:Asuka got off easy there.

    No.

    View Original PostReichu wrote:The pilots are not their Evas, and vice versa... It's also dumb in general to conflate a person with their bond beast.

    If Evangelion didn't tell us what happens when you synch up to an Eva, I'd be inclined to take this seriously. However, the show does tell us, and so I do not.

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    Postby Bagheera » Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:49 am

    View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:This is probably because we have no person to relate to, and it is also no excuse to discount what happened to Asuka. I don't see anybody discounting what happened to Eva-02. Just because we're not talking about Kyoko doesn't mean her problems don't exist, and it's a shame that your argument ignores Asuka in the same way that you claim us to be ignoring Kyoko.


    This is even more ironic, at least in my case, since I think about Kyoko a great deal (probably more than Reichu does).
    For my post-3I fic, go here.
    The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
    People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
    I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
    Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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    Postby Arcadia's legacy » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:05 am

    DAMN. iv'e been gone several hours and this place has already turned into a war zone
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    Postby Bagheera » Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:15 am

    View Original PostEvangelionGodMode wrote:Rei and Kaworu just said that anybody has the ability to return from the sea of LCL, which is lilith's egg. How can Asuka return from the lcl if her soul had left her body before instrumentality happend.


    Where do you get the notion that her soul left her body before Instrumentality happened? It didn't. Lilith tanged her body and collected her soul once Instrumentality began, same as everyone else. That's why she could participate in Instrumentality to begin with, and it's also why she could return of her own volition. Shinji had nothing to do with it.
    For my post-3I fic, go here.
    The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
    People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
    I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
    Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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    Postby EvangelionGodMode » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:19 am

    View Original PostBagheera wrote:Where do you get the notion that her soul left her body before Instrumentality happened? It didn't. Lilith tanged her body and collected her soul once Instrumentality began, same as everyone else. That's why she could participate in Instrumentality to begin with, and it's also why she could return of her own volition. Shinji had nothing to do with it.


    Bc when you die in real life, your soul leaves your body. But me and reichu have already concluded that lilith gathered up all of the recently dead souls.
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    Postby Iuvenal » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:36 am

    View Original PostEvangelionGodMode wrote:Bc when you die in real life, your soul leaves your body. But me and reichu have already concluded that lilith gathered up all of the recently dead souls.


    Ah, but we cannot tell with moral certainty that the body-soul union has been severed until the onset of corruption. The time between when Asuka looks like she buys it (I don't know whether she was still in synchronization during the MP Eva vulture scene - she had been impotently jerking at the control sticks beforehand, iirc - but the bridge bunnies did say that she looked dead) and the Great Flavor Blasting is a couple of minutes, tops. Not nearly enough time for rigor mortis or decomposition to kick in.
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    Postby Bagheera » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:56 am

    View Original PostIuvenal wrote:Ah, but we cannot tell with moral certainty that the body-soul union has been severed until the onset of corruption. The time between when Asuka looks like she buys it (I don't know whether she was still in synchronization during the MP Eva vulture scene - she had been impotently jerking at the control sticks beforehand, iirc - but the bridge bunnies did say that she looked dead) and the Great Flavor Blasting is a couple of minutes, tops. Not nearly enough time for rigor mortis or decomposition to kick in.


    Souls do not appear to leave their bodies at all in the Eva universe until the bodies actually decay and/or are consumed or otherwise destroyed by natural forces.

    And yes, Asuka was synced at that time, which is why she was clutching her belly when Unit 02 was disemboweled. She felt every second of it.
    For my post-3I fic, go here.
    The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
    People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
    I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
    Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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