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Postby Ray » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:20 pm

View Original Post::KL7:: wrote:Princess Mononoke is probably the most boring ghibli film I've seen, runner up goes to Tales from EarthSea.


Don't agree with you about Mononoke. But I agree. . . why is it so hard to get a good Earthsea movie/tv show made?

Sword Art Online is Awesome.


Well . . . I like it too.

FMA has no appeal to me whatsoever.


Care to elaborate on why? Is it the characters? The overall dark nature of the plot? The splitting of continuities between Brotherhood and the first TV Series?
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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:27 pm

View Original Post::KL7:: wrote:Watched 1 OVA of Utena and have no interest in watching anything else Utena related ever again.

There are no Utena OVAs...
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
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Postby ::KL7:: » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:45 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:There are no Utena OVAs...
oops. I guess it was the film adolescence of Utena...

Ray I just couldnt get into the story or characters.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:25 pm

View Original Post::KL7:: wrote:Watched 1 OVA of Utena and have no interest in watching anything else Utena related ever again.


Why would you watch the movie without having seen the series first? The movie's there so fans of the series can laugh and squee about how the characters are portrayed in wildly different ways and doing truly absurd things. It has absolutely no merit whatsoever when taken on its own. It would be like watching EoE without having seen NGE, assuming EoE didn't have an actual plot to it.
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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:20 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It would be like watching EoE without having seen NGE, assuming EoE didn't have an actual plot to it.

Well, that is pretty much how I got drawn in the the world of Evangelion myself.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:41 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Well, that is pretty much how I got drawn in the the world of Evangelion myself.


Right, but EoE has the plot, see? The Utena movie has Utena turning into a car. It's weirdness makes EoE look like amateur hour.
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Postby NemZ » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:53 am

A lesbian convertible powered by shipping, no less. It was pretty rad.
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Postby Enki v.2 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:33 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:I felt this to be one of the few times the anime was better than the manga it adapted. The original manga was a disappointing mess compared with Appleseed; Human-Error Processor felt like a warmed-over Appleseed side story and Man-Machine Interface suffered from being post-Kobe earthquake.

I disagree, basically because I consider Appleseed to be way too straightforward (along with Orion & most of Shirow's other stuff). Shirow was firmly in the wheelhouse of guns-robots-science-and-hot-girls, and then produced the GitS manga that sort of accidentally was a lot deeper and more interesting (and on top of that, also kind of hid the semi-fascistic tendencies in the rest of his work). He built a world where robotics and AI had made international politics more complex in a variety of interesting ways, and then gave us a main character who embodied those complexities and a set of stories that explore them. Appleseed, on the other hand, was a series of stories that had been told better in other manga and that didn't have nearly as much justification for all the wanking over robots and scantily clad women.

I agree that the GitS manga was thematically and stylistically incoherent. However, I feel like it's justified and adds to the world-building -- that it's a positive rather than a negative -- because I see GitS as a story about the complexity of the world and how new technologies have strange interactions with existing social and cultural constructs when they are layered on top of them. (Compare to Shirow's other stuff, which doesn't take place on earth or takes place so far into the future that you can't really connect it to current trends.) GitS isn't about cyborgs -- it's about what happens when the UN gets cyborgs, and what happens when south american terrorist groups and yakuza and police forces and rotary clubs get cyborgs. It's about layering the future on top of the past. And, when you layer the future on top of the past, you get a mish-mash of nonsense that's as funny as a three dollar bill and as serious as cancer.

My problem with the movies, and to a lesser extent SAC, is that they make everything thematically and stylistically coherent. Kusanagi no longer gets flustered; Bateau is no longer accused of being a pervy old man -- after all, despite being grey-legal superhuman mercenaries working for a secret part of the Japanese government with a license to kill and little oversight, they're the good guys and no longer get to have flaws of the silly kind. All their flaws must be serious and weighty. Kusanagi is no longer openly bisexual -- in fact, we never see her show any kind of sexuality (and in the film she's basically entirely sexually and emotionally frigid because Oshii had very different ideas about what cyborgization does to human beings).

Shirow often adds to the complexity in the manga by science-wanking all over the place and adding copious footnotes about manufacturing processes, water displacement by submarines, the mechanics of visual rendering in cyborg eyes... His footnotes add a great deal of missing detail to an already very detailed story, and the show doesn't make any attempt to reintroduce that the way that (say) Monogatari did. If Shirow worked with Shaft to produce a new adaptation of GitS, it would probably be better because we'd at least have footnotes. Instead, we get the pared-down minimalist dialogue of somebody trying too hard to be Neuromancer-era William Gibson. Which doesn't fit with the material, because it leaves no room for exploring and worldbuilding.

Travelling hopefully can be better than arriving (I'm looking at you, Z Gundam). And episodic/short-arc shows measure on a different scale (I'm thinking things as diverse as Mushishi and Zettai Karen Children here).


Yeah. Let me revise my statement a little bit: basically any show is good if you're marathonning it, while you're marathonning it. When I say 26+ episodes, I really sort of mean per season -- if there are clear season breaks along arc lines, wherein you can reasonably call something a sequel season, then it doesn't count. I have a big problem with long-running shows because they are often very amusing while I'm watching them, and two days after I stop watching them I realize they were utter crap. If I stick to 26 episode increments, that particular problem is mitigated -- 26 episodes is a little more than half a day of marathonning. Furthermore, I feel like people have a hard time planning beyond 26 episodes -- once you get too much futher you tend to end up with absurd plot constructions. Even Cowboy Bebop, which was absurdly episodic, wasn't able to extend itself later on -- the movie is absolute crap compared to even the worst single episode.

Long manga can be turned into short shows, because long manga often have exactly the same problems as long shows (needlessly convoluted filler arcs, stupid decisions that are retconned later), and when they are being adapted the worst decisions can be removed -- usually resulting in a shorter show.

When you create a show and you produce it in 1-season chunks with a year or two inbetween, arc-aligned, you have just enough time to come up with a good plan about how to construct each season so it'll be satisfying. (As the number of seasons grows it becomes more difficult to do this, since the complexity of every element grows. Anthology shows like American Horror Story and True Detective prevent themselves from becoming Buffy, and maybe more anime should do this if they want to avoid becoming Bleach.) If you try to make new episodes continuously, particularly if the show isn't particularly episodic, the result is very fast degradation.

With regard to Durarara x2: the original did focus on some characters that were uninteresting to a lot of people, and the new show focused on more interesting characters, sure. And the new show has interesting bits. But the first one, despite being quite complex, fit together really well as a unified whole; they did an excellent job with telling a story in pieces and making the viewer assemble them. I'm not convinced that the new season will link together nearly as well, and if everything doesn't link together, the addition of new pieces just comes off as gratuitous. (That said, when I complained about it yesterday morning, I had just watched the second-to-most-recent episode, which basically came off as an anti-drug PSA. A yakuza enforcer with a huge body count who has plucked out his own eye claims that he hates 'drugs', without specifying what kind or indicating that he distinguishes between addictive and non-addictive, and hints obliquely to an event in his past involving 'drugs', and then we see an event with no drugs involved which we're supposed to believe is related; and then, we proceed to completely screw up the continuity by changing the context of important established events. For a show that traffics in complexity, nuance, manipulation, and casual gore, having an otherwise intelligent and sympathetic character have a comically un-nuanced position breaks suspension of disbelief.)

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Postby Squigsquasher » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 am

In my humble opinion, we could do with some more original Mahou Shoujo anime that isn't grimdark and depressing like Madoka and YuYuYu (which I'm sad to say I haven't seen yet). I mean, don't get me wrong, I love GRIMDARK to bits, but a light and fluffy humorous Mahou Shoujo series aimed at longtime Mahou Shoujo fans (that isn't Pretty Cure) would be great.

There is a distinct lack of shading in modern anime and it makes me sick. I would love to see a return of the days of 5 tone shading and hand drawn everything.

Miyazaki, as much of a genius as he is, is a delusional old grump who needs to get out more and stop grumbling about those pesky kids.

Finally, Mon-Mon needs to get off his arse and do something. Seriously, his art is godlike.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:01 pm

View Original PostEnki v.2 wrote:it's about what happens when the UN gets cyborgs, and what happens when south american terrorist groups and yakuza and police forces and rotary clubs get cyborgs.
Sounds like a description of Appleseed (certainly after the first couple of parts) to me more than it does of GitS.

in fact, we never see her show any kind of sexuality
There's one brief incident in her apartment that alludes to her online hobbies.

Yeah. Let me revise my statement a little bit: basically any show is good if you're marathonning it, while you're marathonning it.
I was basing my reaction on taking series an episode or two at a time, as I normally watch things -- more like the as-aired rate, in sum. For iyashikei series, like Mushishi or Aria, even one episode a night for days at a time is pushing it.

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:In my humble opinion, we could do with some more original Mahou Shoujo anime that isn't grimdark and depressing like Madoka and YuYuYu
Mahou Shoujo has always had an undercurrent of little girls suffering; Edgebutcher didn't invent the concept.

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Postby ::KL7:: » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:38 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Why would you watch the movie without having seen the series first? The movie's there so fans of the series can laugh and squee about how the characters are portrayed in wildly different ways and doing truly absurd things. It has absolutely no merit whatsoever when taken on its own. It would be like watching EoE without having seen NGE, assuming EoE didn't have an actual plot to it.


I had only heard of Utena from this forum where someone sited similarities to Eva. I thought I'd give it a try and the local video rental store happened to have The Utena movie i mentioned above. When i rented it i thought it'd be what 1.11 is to the first few episodes of Eva.(A mistake on my part). However, when the movie was over I had no desire to find out anymore about what i just watched. You're right, the weirdness made EoE look like amateur hour, but usually thats something that would draw me in to find out more about it, sort of how I stalked this forum and wiki for months before joining after watching 2.22.

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Postby Enki v.2 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:56 pm

I see the point, though. Every magical girl show wants to be the evangelion of magical girl shows. If evangelion killed off the traditional mech show completely, I think there'd be a similar backlash (from what I can tell, there *was* a dip in traditional mech shows after eva and everybody was pissed).

With regard to GitS vs Appleseed -- what I see as a lack of realism in Appleseed is again just sort of a shallowness. Basically, any time you see a representation of a conspiracy that has more than two members and functions, that's a lack of verisimilitude -- and the more powerful and long-running that conspiracy is, the less realistic it is. Reality favors small-scale opportunistic corruption at lower echelons of power moreso than large-scale planned corruption at higher echelons of power because, generally speaking, the marginal utility of political power decreases the more you have of it and the likelihood of betrayal increases the higher the stakes are. (This is also a problem with Evangelion, except that SEELE was a suicide cult -- and cults are pretty good at selecting for wealthy and politically powerful members, because such people, insomuch as they are self-made, often feel socially cut off from their family and the groups that they belonged to before they became wealthy and powerful.) Where Appleseed deals with a handful of big government conspiracies in a utopian community (going from memory here because while I read the manga and watched both the OVA and the movie, I did all those things years apart and years ago), GitS deals with small-scale conspiracies and superempowered individuals, and deals mostly with people with clear-cut and believable motives (usually in the range between greed and misplaced altruism). It deals with how people -- even powerful people -- can be petty and can do damage by drastically misunderstanding the limits of the technologies they are using. And, while Section 9 are 'good guys', the manga at least makes it pretty clear that it's sort of incidental that they happen to be on the side of the public; it sidesteps the whole arm-our-policemen-with-nuclear-tanks angle by having this whole thing with the digital divide and also putting in the spotlight the ways in which minor forms of governmental corruption try to subvert section 9 itself.

I should also note that Arise does better than SAC (and particularly SAC Second Gig) in all the things I complained about. To the extent that I have to wonder if some of it wasn't basically just soft censorship, trying to market it to a younger audience for TV.

More controversial opinions:
- Adolescence of Utena is better than Utena proper, because it gets straight to the point. Nevertheless, nearly everybody who watched it missed the point.
- CLAMP should have stayed as a doujin collective, because they can't do plot. Their high-profile stuff -- X, Chobits -- is pretty but mindless.
- The best far-future sci-fi anime in existence is Kiddy Grade. Eureka 7 makes a distant second.
- Maburaho is best understood as a dystopia ruled by eugenics.
- Love Hina did more mental and emotional damage to otaku-kind than any grimdark show, by glorifying casual physical and verbal abuse while codifying a new and easier to replicate form of tsundere-hood.
- The only major difference between Fate/Zero and Mirai Nikki is that Mirai Nikki is more honest about exactly how screwed up someone already has to be in order to fight and kill for godlike powers, or even seriously consider doing so. Nobody in Mirai Nikki is a functional human being, while the dysfunction in Fate/Zero is mostly misleadingly subtle; just as Evangelion pointed out that the standard mech premise couldn't work without everybody involved being massively emotionally damaged, Mirai Nikki pointed out that only sociopaths and the extremely delusional would compete to the death for access to a miracle machine. Fate/Zero would have been more realistic if every character fell into the spectrum between Caster and the former Executor.

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Postby Alaska Slim » Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:00 am

View Original PostEnki v.2 wrote:- The best far-future sci-fi anime in existence is Kiddy Grade. Eureka 7 makes a distant second.

While I didn't hate everything it had to offer, I just couldn't reconcile the show trying to have a serious dialogue on issues such as terrorism and state-sponsored attoricty, while also including cartoonish defacement of the moon in the name of lead's everlasting love. :facepalm:

These things do not mix. Tone was beaten to death with a shovel and had its corpse buried beneath the pile bunkers.

just as Evangelion pointed out that the standard mech premise couldn't work without everybody involved being massively emotionally damaged,

But Gundam already did that. Evangelion went a step further, to completely denied otaku an idol they would want to relate to, and instead, gave them someone who better embodied the qualities they shared, and realistically depicted the result.
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Postby Enki v.2 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:49 am

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:While I didn't hate everything it had to offer, I just couldn't reconcile the show trying to have a serious dialogue on issues such as terrorism and state-sponsored attoricty, while also including cartoonish defacement of the moon in the name of lead's everlasting love. :facepalm:

These things do not mix. Tone was beaten to death with a shovel and had its corpse buried beneath the pile bunkers.

Both Kiddy Grade and Eureka 7 have problems keeping a consistent tone. However, I would argue that this is an element of verisimilitude: the universe has no consistent tone. Other benefits include being able to insert comic relief into extremely serious situations.

Eureka 7's tone problems initially bothered me, since it has major tone whiplash. However, it's also from the point of view of a child -- it's a loss-of-innocence narrative -- and this feeds back into the whole media-control thing. Our main characters are literally terrorists, military deserters, and traitors against the government, and by being hip and publishing a glossy counterculture magazine they gain widespread support; that said, what they're fighting for is revealed to be something the audience, in general, ends up supporting. I think Eureka 7 could have handled both tone and pacing better, which is why it's lower in my list. However, I still feel like, in terms of being an interesting piece of speculative fiction (regardless of execution) it's pretty high up.

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Postby GAP » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:27 am

Both Kiddy Grade and Eureka 7 have problems keeping a consistent tone. However, I would argue that this is an element of verisimilitude: the universe has no consistent tone. Other benefits include being able to insert comic relief into extremely serious situations.

Eureka 7's tone problems initially bothered me, since it has major tone whiplash. However, it's also from the point of view of a child -- it's a loss-of-innocence narrative -- and this feeds back into the whole media-control thing. Our main characters are literally terrorists, military deserters, and traitors against the government, and by being hip and publishing a glossy counterculture magazine they gain widespread support; that said, what they're fighting for is revealed to be something the audience, in general, ends up supporting. I think Eureka 7 could have handled both tone and pacing better, which is why it's lower in my list. However, I still feel like, in terms of being an interesting piece of speculative fiction (regardless of execution) it's pretty high up.



Speaking of Eureka 7, I honestly found it kind of boring and it was a little too preachy.
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Postby NemZ » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:30 pm

Split out some stuff for being too dang eva-centric to belong in this thread.

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/17669/Eva-vs-Gundam-as-commentaries-on-war-audiences/
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:32 pm

What I remember most about Eureka 7 is it's one of the few series I actually stuck with BECAUSE people told me it gets better.

It did.... about 10 episodes from the end. I remember those last 10 episodes were pretty great.

Those first 40 odd episodes though were super BLAND.

Also the first FullMetal Alchemist series is a hell of a lot better then the second one. I don't give a shit about how faithful one is to the manga or not. One tells a captivating story with compelling themes in an interesting way. The other just tells a decent story well.

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Postby Dataprime » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:40 am

I think Akira is a piece of dog crap
Never understood why people like it so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah the animation is pure
eye candy, but the story itself it pretty damn terrible, the characters are stupid and the music is 'meh'

Although - I do like the bike chance scene at the beginning of the film.

I genuinely love how good Evangelion hurts
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Postby chee » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:39 pm

I watched some of Kill la Kill once.



It was okay I guess.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:03 pm

A lot of it really does rely on personal preference, I'll give you that. (I'm firmly in the camp that KLK was awesome, so I don't really belong in the "controversial opinions" camp when it comes to that!)


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