EoE and the DC: Retcon or Not? [split]

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:35 pm

View Original Postcody727kirby wrote:I think the theory that DC scenes were not included in the OA due to time and money constraints is further evidenced by the fact that all of the added scenes are only in the last leg of the series, right around the time when cost-cutting methods were clearly used during production.

The DC scenes don't seem like they would come from left field at all...


FTR cost cutting wasn't an issue. It was more of a time crunch than anything, combined with other studios (Tatsunoko in particular) failing to make good on their promises.

But yes, otherwise agreed. I think the DC material is an expansion of the story that was already there rather than an alteration in any meaningful sense.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:53 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I think the DC material is an expansion of the story that was already there


Especially when you consider 1 of the scenes in DC 21' was going to be in OA 21 originally... (I think it was the scene when Fuyutsuki bumps into Yui at the lab?)
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:34 pm

Anno's attitude towards the additional NGE scenes seems to be consistent with his other projects I that way. Even the added scenes in the first two NTE movies have that same "intentionally part of the first release" feel to them. Without them, Misato would have never told Shinji that NERV was built to fight the Angels, which given the context of the rest of the film is clearly something that the audience was meant to know that Shinji had known from the start of the movie.

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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:25 pm

I disagree, for reasons stated in the prior 12 pages. I don't feel like rehashing it all right now.
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:32 pm

In a certain other topic I came across a link to the text of the "Platinum booklets" and my jaw dropped when I read this part:

Description of Episode 25 wrote:Gendo says, “All souls will become one and find eternal peace”. His Instrumentality Project must have been for all human souls to be combined as one and to compensate each other for what they have been deprived of. In the story that follows from Episode 25 “Air” to Episode 26 “A Pure Heart For You”, he was not able to execute the scenario he had drawn up. It may be that it was in Episode Twenty-Five and Episode Twenty-Six that his wish actually came true.

:bigeyes: I know it says "may be", but this is the only time I've seen official material say anything about whether the physical events underpinning the action differ between EoTV and EoE, much less state so outright that they did.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:14 pm

I don't know what to make of the fact that episode 25 is described as "Air". If the booklet's wrong about that how can it be right about the rest?
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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:27 pm

It's correct as is, Bags. That passage is comparing the two endings but just doesn't mark them in the way we're used to. Essentially it's saying what I've been saying for a long damn time... that in EoE (the episodes so named) Gendo fails, but in EoTV (the ones that are only listed by number in the final sentence) Gendo wins.

Nice to have another source that matches up with the RCB had to say on the matter though, Monk.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:53 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:It's correct as is, Bags.


No, it isn't. Ep 25 is not Air, no matter how you slice it. Calling it such is wrong, pure and simple.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Vegeta 20XX » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:33 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, it isn't. Ep 25 is not Air, no matter how you slice it. Calling it such is wrong, pure and simple.


Hence why we tend to add an apostrophe or "dash" - you're right, Episode 25 is NOT Air, but Episode 25' is, which I presume was being referred to originally.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:49 pm

That was my point, yeah. Hence why the text writes the two mentions differently.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:14 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:FTR cost cutting wasn't an issue. It was more of a time crunch than anything, combined with other studios (Tatsunoko in particular) failing to make good on their promises.

But yes, otherwise agreed. I think the DC material is an expansion of the story that was already there rather than an alteration in any meaningful sense.

Its for this reason that I would almost question of the DC and EoE should be lumped into the same category of episodes. DC 21 - 24 are obviously extended episodes that end more or less the same way no matter which version you watched. Sure, some extra things happened before the ending of the DC Episodes, but the endings were pretty much the same.

EoE, on the other hand, takes the “Congratulations!” from a crowd of characters to a smiling Shinji in Ep 26 and turns it into a “How disgusting” muttered by Asuka to a whimpering boy. It ended differently, even if one were to argue if the difference was only in tone.

The same thing goes with the episode titles. In DC of Eps 21 - 24, the titles remain exactly the same despite all of the expansions made to the episodes in question. (Episode 23 is called “Tears/Rei III” regardless of whether you’re watching the OA or the DC.) But when it comes to EoTV vs EoE, EoTV calls Ep 25 “At World’s End/Do You Love Me?” but the EoE version is called it “Air/Love is Destructive.” And when it comes to Ep 26, EoTV calls it “The Beast That Shouted ‘Love’ at the Heart of the World/Take Care of Yourself,” while EoE calls it “Yours Sincerely/One More Final.” Unlike the OA vs the DC versions of the TV series, EoE give its contents entirely new episode titles. This suggests more than just an expansion of ideas, but rather an alternate narrative of some sort. What if, rather than Shinji starting off by asking “Do You Love Me?” he began by realizing that “Love is Destructive”? What if by the end, instead of someone telling him to “Take Care of [Him]self,” he only has to endure “One More Final”?

In other words, I’m not entirely sure that the DC episodes were produced specifically to “lead into” EoE, and not lead into EoTV. Rather, the DC Episodes are simply just a completion of the episodes that were originally produced. EoE, on the other hand, was produced as a slight alteration of the EoTV ending, even if only in tone, if not also in different narrative events.

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Especially when you consider 1 of the scenes in DC 21' was going to be in OA 21 originally... (I think it was the scene when Fuyutsuki bumps into Yui at the lab?)

We also know from storyboards and animatics that the events of Ep 25’ “Air” were originally supposed to be in EoTV anyway. But...

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Ep 25 is not Air, no matter how you slice it. Calling it such is wrong, pure and simple.

I agree with this. After all, if Ep 25 was going to be “Air,” then it would have been called “Air,” just like how the DC versions of the episodes share the exact same name with the OA versions of the episodes.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:49 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:What if by the end, instead of someone telling him to “Take Care of [Him]self,” he only has to endure “One More Final”?

It's "One More Final: I Need You", contrasted with "Finale: Take Care of Yourself". (Quite complementary, really.)
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:02 am

Thanks for the clarification. Whereas it is indeed quite complementary, it becomes so by being the equal and opposite counterpart to EoTV. Desiring love vs finding love destructive. Being independent vs needing someone. EoTV explores one, EoE seems to explore the other. It’s as though by providing it’s own alternate/counter narrative, the series as a whole only seems to reenforces the its overall message.

The DC edits, on the other hand, don’t seem to do that. In title, they remain the same. In content, they only seem to explore more of what was already hinted at or otherwise presented in the rest of the TV series. Asuka being interested in a kiss from Shinji in Episode 15 (which remained unaltered) becomes build-up to Asuka’s extended mental break-down in the DC of Episode 22. DC is more of the same, but intensified. EoE is a counter narrative, thus proving EoTV’s point.

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:25 am

View Original PostVegeta 20XX wrote:Hence why we tend to add an apostrophe or "dash" - you're right, Episode 25 is NOT Air, but Episode 25' is, which I presume was being referred to originally.


I can see that. But nomenclature aside, I don't see what the booklet's getting at; how do they get the notion that Gendo's Instrumentality would somehow be different from Seele's? All souls become one in both versions, so it seems silly to say Gendo failed in one version but succeeded in another.
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Postby zlink64 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:33 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote: EoE is a counter narrative, thus proving EoTV’s point.

Could you explain this a bit more please. It sounds interesting to me and I wanna see what you see/understand better.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:40 am

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:Could you explain this a bit more please. It sounds interesting to me and I wanna see what you see/understand better.

I believe that, to a certain extent, EoE provides a counter narrative to EoTV’s ending, suggesting that is one doesn’t come to terms with himself like Shinji does in EoTV, then you’ll end up questioning the good of your existence like Shinji does in EoE.

In EoTV’s Ep 26, Shinji goes on about how he can understand himself, and therefore love himself. He concludes that he is himself, and that it’s okay for him to be himself. He even proudly and happily declares that he wants to be himself, and that he wants to “be here,” (wherever “here” is) and that it’s okay for him to be here.

In EoE, his words are a bit different. Despite telling Rei and Kaworu that he wants to escape Instrumentality because his “feelings were at that time were real,” he tells Yui that he still doesn’t know where his happiness lies, and even begins to question whether or not it’s good to be “here” (wherever “here” is) and whether or not it was good to be born. This is in direct contrast to realizing that it’s good to be himself in the place where he is in EoTV.

Seeing as how EoE was produced and released after EoTV, it’s as though Anno were saying “If you don’t do this, then this other thing will happen.” If Shinji can’t be at terms with himself and with being “here,” (EoTV’s ending) then he’ll still be stuck questioning the reason for his existence like he’s always been doing. (EoE’s ending.) I think people get too caught up on whether or not Gendo wins in one ending while Seele wins in another ending, especially since Rei and Yui truly hold all of the cards in both scenarios. What really matters is whether Shinji was able to come to terms with himself and his existence “here” or not. This had been a running theme since Episode 1, with Shinji asking his father why he wants hims to be “here.” In the end it doesn’t matter to the story-teller (Anno) if Gendo wins or Seele wins. If it did matter that much, we would have clearer answers about it in EoTV. What matters is how Shinji was able to cope with “being here,” and why being able to cope with that is so important. EoTV presents the positives with being able to cope with that, while EoE provides the negatives of not being able to cope with that.

In that same sense, people also get too caught up on whether or not Shinji escaped or broke Instrumentality in EoTV. The question of “being here,” has nothing to do with physical location (in or out of Instrumentality) but rather with the whole concept of existence. When Shinji realizes it’s “okay to be here” in EoTV, he’s not referring to Instrumentality (though he still might have accepted Instrumentality in EoTV, whether he did or not isn’t that important) but rather to his existence anywhere. Likewise when he admits in EoE that he’ll always question whether it’s “good to be here,” he’s referring to his existence anywhere. I think this is one of the reasons why Shinji physical location in both EoTV and EoE during the exact moment he references “being here” rather inconclusive. In EoTV, he’s in a symbolic auditorium when he references “being here.” In EoE, he’s taking with Yui in the Sea of LCL when he references “begin here.” Neither are conclusively Instrumentality or reality, but rather some place in-between. It has nothing with being in a physical location, but rather just with the state of being in general.
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Postby cody727kirby » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:55 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:In a certain other topic I came across a link to the text of the "Platinum booklets" and my jaw dropped when I read this part:
Description of Episode 25 wrote:

Gendo says, “All souls will become one and find eternal peace”. His Instrumentality Project must have been for all human souls to be combined as one and to compensate each other for what they have been deprived of. In the story that follows from Episode 25 “Air” to Episode 26 “A Pure Heart For You”, he was not able to execute the scenario he had drawn up. It may be that it was in Episode Twenty-Five and Episode Twenty-Six that his wish actually came true.

:bigeyes: I know it says "may be", but this is the only time I've seen official material say anything about whether the physical events underpinning the action differ between EoTV and EoE, much less state so outright that they did.

Really interesting, Monk, thanks for the link. I think the "may be" is important to note, as you said. On the other side of the coin, there is the paragraph before.

Description of Episode 25:
"However, there is actually a bare-bones explanation of the story within the show. That being… Gendo uses Rei to execute the Human Instrumentality Project and the complementation of man begins. Seeing the remakes, Episode 25 “Air” and Episode 26 “A Pure Heart For You”, may in fact make the content of Episode Twenty-Five easier to understand. The depictions of Misato and Ritsuko being shot to death, Unit-02 hugging its knees in the lake, and Asuka likewise hugging her knees within Unit-02 all correspond to Episode 25."

IMO Gendo did at least start/execute Instrumentality in both endings. However, I don't see any quote that says that Gendo's plans actually succeeded in EoTV.

Episode 25:
Shinji: What is this?

Misato: The Human Instrumentality Project that your father was working on.

Shinji: This is?

Misato: It appears to be part of it.

Asuka: Because the truth eludes even us.

That leaves a lot of wiggle room plot-wise, especially while keeping in mind Anno had Episode 25' already in mind at the time, which is supported by his quote in 2013.
For the TV series, we certainly ran out of time. We had no time for episode 25, so we remade it for the theatrical edition. The final episode, episode 26, was going to be that way originally.


EDIT: I just read FreakyFilmFan4ever's post before this one. Interesting read, my post completely proves your point on the plot focus :lol: However, I think the fact that, in EoTV, Shinji's realization of self acceptance is so quick (around a minute long) is indicative of the lack of production time for the episode. This last scene in particular feels very "rushed", especially given the complex emotions involved with accepting one's self and the ugly/beautiful world he/she resides in, which is more effectively illustrated in EoE. Entirely subjective, but just my two cents.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:05 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I can see that. But nomenclature aside, I don't see what the booklet's getting at; how do they get the notion that Gendo's Instrumentality would somehow be different from Seele's? All souls become one in both versions, so it seems silly to say Gendo failed in one version but succeeded in another.


Yes, and thus we can clearly assume they are not the same event and instrumentality can come in different 'flavors'. To be brief:

    EoTV
  • people seem to still be themselves within the larger union
  • both Misato and Gendo are reunited with their lost loves
  • Gendo seems to be a figure of authority
  • ends with congratulations and fanfare in a smiling group in a pleasant fantastical landscape

    EoE
  • individuals don't seem to persist at all, just ground up into raw soul-stuff
  • Gendo is rejected and Kaji is nowhere to be seen
  • it's all on Shinji to decide
  • ends with attempted murder, isolation and a cold rejection in a very real world gone wrong

Freaky wrote:I believe that, to a certain extent, EoE provides a counter narrative to EoTV’s ending, suggesting that is one doesn’t come to terms with himself like Shinji does in EoTV, then you’ll end up questioning the good of your existence like Shinji does in EoE.


Yes, absolutely this.

In that same sense, people also get too caught up on whether or not Shinji escaped or broke Instrumentality in EoTV.


I attribute this to the difference between what the story is saying to the characters vs. what it is saying to the audience. These issues don't at all impact the latter, which is what you're focusing on.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:43 am

View Original Postcody727kirby wrote:That leaves a lot of wiggle room plot-wise, especially while keeping in mind Anno had Episode 25' already in mind at the time, which is supported by his quote in 2013.


Yes, this. Since 25' was always supposed to be there, and 26 was likewise always supposed to be there, I think the notion that we're looking at different "flavors" of Instrumentality is nonsensical.

NemZ: Many of your bullet points don't really hold. People are themselves in P3II in EoE, Misato and Kaji are reunited in P3II in EoE, Gendo and Yui aren't really reunited anywhere, and Shinji's making an important decision in both endings. The two aren't as different as you're making them out to be.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:59 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:NemZ: Many of your bullet points don't really hold. People are themselves in P3II in EoE, Misato and Kaji are reunited in P3II in EoE, Gendo and Yui aren't really reunited anywhere, and Shinji's making an important decision in both endings. The two aren't as different as you're making them out to be.


I meant ACTUAL instrumentality, not just the opening event. P3II is before the blender is turned on, and that Kaji is just a memory, not an interactive speaking presence.

Gendo and Yui sure seem to be standing together at the end of EoE, and the old bastard is even smiling.

Shinji's decisions in EoTV impact only himself, not the whole damn world.
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