Theories: Who is Kaworu's Donor?

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Postby Ispellnogood » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:08 pm

And yet we know she has to have one, since Unit 01 does.



By "core" do you mean s2 organ?
Are S2 organ and core the same thing?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:15 pm

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:By "core" do you mean s2 organ?
Are S2 organ and core the same thing?

The core is the big red ball. Adam, the Evas, and most of Adam's children are observed to have one. It's where the soul lives.

The S2 engine is the double-helical organ that is possessed by Adam and her children. Some Evas were given (or acquired) one, as well. It is contained within the core, too.
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:09 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Kaworu's "true" Angel form is Adam.



And yet we know she has to have one, since Unit 01 does.


With Adam/Kaworu/Tarbis Well, I was merely suggesting that it might have been "Tarbis" if they were considered categorically different in the same way that an angel Sachiel was different from Adam.

About the core (as a location for where soul is placed) why would an organic body need one? Take humans for example...In NGE, the soul just sort of resides within the bodily form it belongs to, i.e. Shinji's soul is Shinji's body, Misato's soul is in Misato's body, etc.

With that in mind, is it possible the core in Eva 01 (and by extension all of the Evas) is little more than a kind of cybernetic construct (much like the Eva armor) implanted into the body of Lilith or the cloned bodies of Adam?

If this theory has any validity, then that would mean that the core placed in the upper half of Lilith might have been placed there after it was deemed impossible to reach Yui's soul (or reunite it with her tang for that matter) by any other mean than to create Unit 01 as a separate body from Lilith thus creating Rei I in the process. It could be then (Since Kaworu and Rei are houses for the Seeds) that Rei I IS Lilith's core and, by reasonable deduction, Kaworu is Adam's core (perhaps that's even where the real concern for the possibility of him "fusing with Eva 2" comes from in the sense that the core containing Kyoko's fragment might have been booted, out so to speak, thus enabling Kaworu to take complete control as it were his own body without the threat of losing his tang)...

In that sense, the Rei bodies and the Kaworu body(s) are more or less "organic" versions of what was mechanically implemented into the Evas...

Alternatively, could it also perhaps be (barring the theory above is made defunct) that the Moons are perhaps the cores of the Seeds and all of the power they are alleged to posses only gets reinvigorated once all of the souls are place back in it?

This could explain the "Angel Tree" and the whole bit about "Eva 00's core collapsing" in that the Angel's were really having a conflict with the Rei I fragment in the part of the Eva body where the soul is place (its core) so that they could reside in a body type akin to their own (as an Adam clone).

However, Rei I puts an end to it, converses with Rei II and she's convinced the best way to resolve the issue is to go boom, and the mini-GNR we see is Rei I and Rei II coming back together again.

The way Eva 00 is depicted as mother about to give birth kind of reinforces the idea of all (or at least most ) of Adam's children arriving as "pregnant mothers" fighting for dominance and initiating their own Impacts is their way of finally being able to give birth and making way for the human race to be transformed into little Sachiels, Zeruels, etc.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:46 pm

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:With that in mind, is it possible the core in Eva 01 (and by extension all of the Evas) is little more than a kind of cybernetic construct (much like the Eva armor) implanted into the body of Lilith or the cloned bodies of Adam?

The core of an Eva is the same as the core of Adam or her offspring. It's not cybernetic, though it's modified to interface with cybernetic additions.

If this theory has any validity, then that would mean that the core placed in the upper half of Lilith

No core was ever placed in the upper half of Lilith. One (or more, if you count the tiny core-like things that nobody has ever explained...) was evidently "installed" into Eva-01's chest while she was still connected to Lilith. A cylindrical cavity was later carved into the core (cf. episode 21 background dialogue), presumably to accommodate the entry plug that contained Yui for the CE.

This thread needs less Rei and Lilith and more Kaworu and Adam.
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:05 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:This thread needs less Rei and Lilith and more Kaworu and Adam.


Well, it's kind of hard to talk about one without the other...Especially since I was merely bring her/them up as an example that runs parallel to Kaworu...

With that in mind, I'll start from scratch...

It's explicitly stated that Kaworu was born on the same day as Second Impact, so it's not a stretch to say that he was born in Antarctica as a result of Second Impact/CE with Adam.

Therefore...we can reduce the number of candidates regarding his DNA donor (regardless of what that might entail for the time being) down to:

Dr. K
Gendo
An Unknown Person

Any thoughts on this?
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:19 pm

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:It's explicitly stated that Kaworu was born on the same day as Second Impact, so it's not a stretch to say that he was born in Antarctica as a result of Second Impact/CE with Adam.


Since Antarctica kinda blew up I'd say that actually is a bit of a stretch (though granted, no more of one than the embryo or Misato's survival). I do think it's quite possible he was cloned in Germany or something after Adam blew up.

Therefore...we can reduce the number of candidates regarding his DNA donor (regardless of what that might entail for the time being) down to:

Dr. K
Gendo
An Unknown Person

Any thoughts on this?


How does that reduce anything? You've just named the whole population of Earth! :lol:
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:46 pm

SawItAtAge10: If we're talking seriously, we can probably exclude anyone who wasn't capable of being physically present for the CE from the runnings. This bears repeating, I guess.

We can also probably exclude the possibility of Kaworu's body being created after Second Impact. (You don't seem to have a problem with this, but others do.) To claim otherwise is a severe violation of the law of conversation of information in fiction. (See here and elsewhere in that thread.) As a corollary, it also requires fabricating a redundant event into the story.
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Postby SawItAtAge10 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:03 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:SawItAtAge10: If we're talking seriously, we can probably exclude anyone who wasn't capable of being physically present for the CE from the runnings. This bears repeating, I guess.

We can also probably exclude the possibility of Kaworu's body being created after Second Impact. (You don't seem to have a problem with this, but others do.) To claim otherwise is a severe violation of the law of conversation of information in fiction. (See here and elsewhere in that thread.) As a corollary, it also requires fabricating a redundant event into the story.


So, if we (and I'm terribly sorry to do this again) make the comparison to Yui/Rei, which as previously stated, involves an "absorption/possibly soul trading" then we can ostensibly rule out:

Gendo (who left one day before 2I)

and

Dr. K who was seen helping Misato escape AFTER the DNA had been inserted into Adam.

Therefore, we're left with....

An Unknown Person (which I meant as an "unknown" working for the Dr. K research team. Hell it could be the guy heard complaining about the "No Smoking Signs" we hear in the audio of the 2I vid seen ep. 21 DC cut, yeah my vote is on THAT GUY).
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:22 pm

View Original PostSawItAtAge10 wrote:So, if we make the comparison to Yui/Rei, which as previously stated, involves an "absorption/possibly soul trading" then we can ostensibly rule out

The parallel shouldn't be made blindly. Does it actually work? Are the two CEs all that comparable?

OK, what do we know about Yui's? Drawing from various sources, its overt purpose was to have a live human subject (Yui) synchronize with Eva-01 and generate an artificial soul (an "imprint" of sorts). For the procedure, Yui wore a proto-plugsuit, called a "dive suit", along with an interface headset. We know that a cylindrical cavity was excavated in Eva-01's core for the CE, hence an entry plug was almost certainly used. Yui's getup along with the alterations to the core suggest that the synchronization with Eva-01 was both neuronal and nuclear (i.e. "relating to a core").

So why was Yui absorbed?

A) She wanted to be.
B) Synchronization with an Eva is capable of completely corroding one's ego boundary, causing the body to dissolve into LCL.
C) As confirmed via Kyoko, empty Eva cores are implied to have a "vacuum" sort of effect: they 'don't like' being empty, and will exert an ATF-corroding effect on any besouled vessel that gets too close.

Shinji's later dissolutions within Eva-01 are related to (B): a side effect of one's ATF being overwhelmed by proximity to another soul, or something like that.

Now, what do we know about the Adam CE? Not a whole lot, but what's there indicates (or at least strongly suggests):

1) The experiment involves a live human test subject making some kind of physical contact with Adam.
2) This, of course, puts Adam in contact with the test subject's genetic material. Since the test subject is designated the "donor", this appears to be the point.
3) Genes from the donor "dive" (yeah, that's really what it says) into Adam's body.
4) Later, these genes are said to "physically fuse". (This happens immediately after Adam's S2 engine goes wonky and makes her whole body glow.)
5) The result of this "fusion" would appear to be Tabris/Kaworu.

There don't seem to be any points of comparison with Yui's CE here, aside from:

A) live human test subject
B) "contact" with giant humanoid "god"
C) a facsimile of the test subject is (directly or indirectly) produced

Certainly, I don't think it can be taken for granted that the donor was absorbed by Adam. The conditions aren't comparable. Why would a wonky gene-diving experiment require the donor to compromise their ego boundary? In my opinion, several key questions about the Adam CE, its purpose, and its logistics need to be seriously addressed before assumptions like "the donor was totally absorbed dead" can be made. (I think I raised them earlier in the thread, too... to the usual absolute lack of interest. Sigh.)

Furthermore, if the donor were a casualty of the experiment, don't you think this would be reflected in the 21' flashback somewhere, somehow?
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:37 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Certainly, I don't think it can be taken for granted that the donor was absorbed by Adam.


I think it can. The donor was present for the CE, and the donor's genes fused with Adam. I don't see any other way to read it.

Furthermore, if the donor were a casualty of the experiment, don't you think this would be reflected in the 21' flashback somewhere, somehow?


Not unless it was a named character. Heck, we barely got anything on Yui, and she actually mattered!
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Postby Logoguy » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:44 am

I tend to think the donor was always Gendo. If you juxtapose Rei and Kaworu with Yui and Gendo, it seems the former are like the parents that Shinji always wanted, but never had. Also Kaworu's statement in ep 24 indicates that he's related to Gendo somehow; though that could've just been hyperbole.

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Postby nostalgic_beer » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:51 am

I tend to think the donor was always Gendo.


View Original PostIspellnogood wrote: Kaworu referred to Gendo as father in Rebuild. This could actually happen in Rebuild. Then there will be a whole lot of new psychological discussions and theories about Shinji’s attraction to Kaworu and a whole new concurrency debate regarding Gendo being the donor for Kaworu.


I thought about that, but this answer gave me more confusion, and since I'm don't have all that knowledge about Japanese culture...

I get the impression that it's not meant to indicate that Gendo is his father so much that he thinks he's close to Shinji. In Japanese, it's common for a friend to call his friend's father "otou-san". It's a level of familiarity, kind of like honorifics and calling an older friend "onee-san" or "onii-san" (honorifics may vary). Whether that familiarity actually exists between Gendo and Kaworu is debatable, which could mean that Kaworu was being tongue-and-cheek about it (implying a familiarity when clearly none exists).

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Postby Vegeta 20XX » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:44 pm

The idea of Dr. K being the donor stands out as the most likely one to me for various reasons mentioned in this thread (far too many to name examples), but if we allow that, it draws a parallel between Shinji and Misato regarding the SoLs; Rei being both Lilith's vessel and a clone of Shinji's mother while Kaworu holds Adam's soul and Misato's father's genetic basis. Note that Misato seems the most alarmed about Kaworu's flawless sync test with Unit 02, and appears the most determined to figure out what isn't right about this boy; the possibility of Kaworu appearing alien yet familiar - and certainly dangerous - to Misato doesn't seem out of the league of possibility here, given that she seems rather unnerved by the Fifth Child far more than a single sync test would conceivably arouse suspicion.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:01 pm

View Original PostVegeta 20XX wrote:The idea of Dr. K being the donor stands out as the most likely one to me for various reasons mentioned in this thread (far too many to name examples), but if we allow that, it draws a parallel between Shinji and Misato regarding the SoLs; Rei being both Lilith's vessel and a clone of Shinji's mother while Kaworu holds Adam's soul and Misato's father's genetic basis. Note that Misato seems the most alarmed about Kaworu's flawless sync test with Unit 02, and appears the most determined to figure out what isn't right about this boy; the possibility of Kaworu appearing alien yet familiar - and certainly dangerous - to Misato doesn't seem out of the league of possibility here, given that she seems rather unnerved by the Fifth Child far more than a single sync test would conceivably arouse suspicion.


I think his appearance and demeanor would explain that rather handily. Also, I never got the impression he was at all familiar to her. That's part of why I think the Dr. K angle is far-fetched.
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Postby Vegeta 20XX » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:16 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I think his appearance and demeanor would explain that rather handily. Also, I never got the impression he was at all familiar to her. That's part of why I think the Dr. K angle is far-fetched.


It's something that can only be inferred if the unknown variable is assumed - i.e., if Kaworu's donor WAS Dr. K, such an idea would be plausible, but only if, since it's never detailed elsewhere.
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Postby zlink64 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:58 pm

Just out of curiosity have there been any like video games or extended merchandise that have like hinted or given an answer?
hmmm
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Postby SEELE » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:35 am

I think Kaworus donor is either Keel or Fuyutsuki. Because he has some facial traits of the young Keel and the young Fuyutsuki. Also his chin is spiky and only some characters (like Rei) has this prominent chin. Dr. K and Kaji are disqualified because from the first we don't see any photos and Kaji looks a lot like a shaved and mature version of Gendo/Shinji mixture. Also Kaworu and Rei seem to suffer from albinism or such thing. While most of the red tones missing (Yui had a rosy tone - Rei a real white-ish tone) (Kozo has a light brown tone - Kaworu has a greyish tone) the colour of the hair matches the colour (of both Kaworu and Rei) if you take out the red-colour. Yui has a prominent dark-brown and if you take out the complementary red/magenta you have basically Rei's hair-colour. So the donor for Kaworu must be someone with a light/brighter hair. And Dr. K looks like Kaji so he must have had dark-brown or a purple tone. Keel could be also the donor because his younger self has also a dark-blonde tone.
Also the relation between Kozo and Yui is similiar to the relation of Kaworu and Shinji. One of them holds unrequited sentiments for the other - both were destinated to meet each other. Kaworu and Kozo always make suggestions. And given the circumstances between Rei and Shinji - i think the donor is not just some random guy.

Also a side note: Remember how Kaworu called Gendo/Fuyutsuki 'the King of the Lilin' as the first Angel?
Maybe this is all a big clusterfuck and wincest thingy.
Just out of curiosity have there been any like video games or extended merchandise that have like hinted or given an answer?

No? :huh:
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