Aura: I don't actually think the "canonical" function of the Kaworu-Kaji parallelism has anything to do with my Dr. Katsuragi head-canon, if that's the impression you received. (The disclaimers and clarifications! They do nothing!) Serious analysis of the matter would probably be better served in a different thread, in my opinion. I personally don't have much to say about it right now, as I'd need to revisit the show and gather my thoughts. Well, maybe sometime when I'm not deep in fanfic-writing mode.

Since this thread is, supposedly, dealing more in what-ifs than in actualities, I think it's perfectly fair to bring up the Kaworu-Kaji thing as hypothetical support. Had the writers chosen to make a familial relation between Misato and Kaworu a plot/character point, the linkage between Kaji (Dr. Katsuragi's proxy) and Kaworu (in this scenario, Dr. Katsuragi's progeny) would readily provide support, in addition to everything else it is doing. Things work on multiple layers in NGE, after all.

Out of curiosity, why aren't you applying this same level of scrutiny to your Gendo fancy?

Because I blatantly and openly admit that it's an 'impossible headcanon' and didn't notice you make the same concession.

The Katsuragi theory makes sense, but I like with the random donor one. The Katsuragi theory fits well, but the actual stuff concerning the donor is mostly a big blank space where a lot of things can fit. The random donor theory just adds to the realism of the process and the evangelion universe in my opinion. It’s a good theory though and much more pleasant to swallow than the Gendo theory.

It depends on what you consider Kaworu’s creation method too. If he is to Seele what Rei is to Gendo and Nerv, then the donor could have been absorbed the same way as Yui Ikari, which would discredit any theory that the donor is someone from the show. The soul transference theory for the Rei clones is a good explanation in my mind for how Seele actually came to have Kaworu in the first place.

The Gendo donor theory is just too abhorrent for me to consider. Nothing good comes from any association with Gendo. No character can be left unscathed, just look at Yui. Even friendly pretty bo…… OH GOD NO!
Kaworu referred to Gendo as father in Rebuild. This could actually happen in Rebuild. Then there will be a whole lot of new psychological discussions and theories about Shinji’s attraction to Kaworu and a whole new concurrency debate regarding Gendo being the donor for Kaworu.

Despite not knowing who the donor is, should we assume that Kaworu's "birth' came about in a similar fashion to Rei's? By this I mean:

There was a soul-switching (think Freaky Friday) and Kaworu's body was molded out of the tang of whomever touched Adam similar to how Lilith transferred her soul into Yui's tang whilst Yui's soul went into the "double-cross" form of Lilith to create Rei I.

If so, that has horrifying implications for the soul that suddenly found itself trapped in Adam's giant body prior to exploding...(that poor soul)

Also, if this theory holds up, then we can logically deduce that Dr. K definitely was not the donor since he was walking around helping Misato get out.

Hence we have anonymity on the part of the donor and that aligns with the symbolic anonymity regarding the "faceless-ness" of God.

SawItAtAge10 wrote:There was a soul-switching (think Freaky Friday) and Kaworu's body was molded out of the tang of whomever touched Adam similar to how Lilith transferred her soul into Yui's tang whilst Yui's soul went into the "double-cross" form of Lilith to create Rei I.

I don't think there was soul switching in either case. In the case of Rei Yui's soul clearly went straight to Unit 01, and Rei (somehow) got Lilith's soul (or most of it) later. In the case of Kaworu we're told outright in the CI that Adam's soul "flew off somewhere" when Adam exploded, and that it was (somehow) later retrieved and put into Kaworu. The donor just got tanged like everyone else (or absorbed by Adam, whichever).

Bagheera wrote:I don't think there was soul switching in either case. In the case of Rei Yui's soul clearly went straight to Unit 01, and Rei (somehow) got Lilith's soul (or most of it) later. In the case of Kaworu we're told outright in the CI that Adam's soul "flew off somewhere" when Adam exploded, and that it was (somehow) later retrieved and put into Kaworu. The donor just got tanged like everyone else (or absorbed by Adam, whichever).

I forgot about the "soul flew off somewhere" bit in regards to Kaworu...thanks for the reminder.

However, I did say the "double-cross" version of Lilith in regards to Yui and Rei. Meaning, there had to be certain order of events regarding how the souls and forms of the Evas ended up being where they were prior to Ep. 1

1. Contact experiment with Eva 1 (the top end of Double-Cross version of Lilith)
2. Yui disappears into the portion that would become Eva 01 (her soul remains there)
3. Yui's tang provides the genetic make up for Rei I's form whilst Lilith's soul transfers into it.
4. Eva 01 is torn from Lilith thus making them into separate things: Lilith hanging on the cross and Eva Unit 01.
5. Rei I is killed by Naoko and her soul is split between Eva 00 and Rei II.

I think some of these steps might be interchangeable, however it stands to reason that Yui went into the portion of Lilith that would become Unit 01 simultaneous to Lilith entering into its interpretation of Yui's form (Rei), hence a soul switching.

Now, obviously, the other steps would be required to get the Unit 01, Rei II, and Unit 00 that we know and love for most of the duration of the series...

In regards to Kaworu, it could be that the soul DID fly off somewhere AFTER entering Adam's interpretation of a human via the donor's tang (from the CE), as a result of the explosion/2nd Impact.

Then, after being retrieved and placed within a clone body (in the sense that Rei II and III are clones of Rei I/Yui) could have emerged as the Kaworu of ep. 24. That would mean that the Kaworu we know is like Kaworu II or possibly III. Kind of adds another parallel between Rei and Kaworu in the sense of his line "You are the same as I am."

Plus, there's a correlation with the whole "How interesting we've both taken on the form of the Lilin".

This could be interpreted as "We [as angels] have the ability to turn into whatever living being we tang...what a crazy coincidence that we both ended turning human" Of course, that's not much of a coincidence as much as it's an observation given the nature of all of the purposeful human involvement in the 2nd Impact and the CE's.

Not "as angels", but "as seeds", surely.

pwhodges wrote:Not "as angels", but "as seeds", surely.

Well yes, to be more specific...I was just using the word "angel" here a placeholder to indicate the nature of their "meta-biologies".

SawItAtAge10 wrote:1. Contact experiment with Eva 1 (the top end of Double-Cross version of Lilith)
2. Yui disappears into the portion that would become Eva 01 (her soul remains there)
3. Yui's tang provides the genetic make up for Rei I's form whilst Lilith's soul transfers into it.
4. Eva 01 is torn from Lilith thus making them into separate things: Lilith hanging on the cross and Eva Unit 01.
5. Rei I is killed by Naoko and her soul is split between Eva 00 and Rei II.

Note there's no reason to assume Yui's remains were used to create Rei before Unit 01 and Lilith split. It could happen months or even years later; we don't even know how Lilith's soul got into Rei to begin with, so there's no way to establish that part of the timeline.

I think some of these steps might be interchangeable, however it stands to reason that Yui went into the portion of Lilith that would become Unit 01 simultaneous to Lilith entering into its interpretation of Yui's form (Rei), hence a soul switching.

No, I completely disagree. Unit 01 had a separate core, and that's what Yui entered. Lilith's core (and soul) had no connection to or interaction with that process at all as far as I can tell.

In regards to Kaworu, it could be that the soul DID fly off somewhere AFTER entering Adam's interpretation of a human via the donor's tang (from the CE), as a result of the explosion/2nd Impact.

Then, after being retrieved and placed within a clone body (in the sense that Rei II and III are clones of Rei I/Yui) could have emerged as the Kaworu of ep. 24. That would mean that the Kaworu we know is like Kaworu II or possibly III. Kind of adds another parallel between Rei and Kaworu in the sense of his line "You are the same as I am."

That seems unnecessarily baroque to me. Of course it's possible, but why is it necessary? Let's keep things as simple as we can.

SawItAtAge10 wrote:Well yes, to be more specific...I was just using the word "angel" here a placeholder to indicate the nature of their "meta-biologies".

The Angels are Adam's progeny (Misato calls humanity the 18th Angel, though I'm not sure how reliable that info is; regardless, Seeds and Angels are different beasts).

Bagheera wrote:Note there's no reason to assume Yui's remains were used to create Rei before Unit 01 and Lilith split. It could happen months or even years later; we don't even know how Lilith's soul got into Rei to begin with, so there's no way to establish that part of the timeline.

This is true...the main thing is the end result: Rei I coming about from Yui's CE with the Eva 01 portion of Lilith.

In essence, Rei I and Eva 01 are the complete inverse of eachother:

Rei I = Lilith within "Yui-body" Eva 01 = Yui within "Lilith-body"

Bagheera wrote:No, I completely disagree. Unit 01 had a separate core, and that's what Yui entered. Lilith's core (and soul) had no connection to or interaction with that process at all as far as I can tell.

How do we know they had no interaction? It seems that Lilith (as Rei I anyway) is very interested in interacting with other souls as soon as she meets them...

Just look at ep. 14, the way that part of Rei/Lilith reacts to Shinji's presence in Eva 00.
Also, who's to say the core wasn't something manufactured as way to separate the two halves of Lilith?

Although I am a bit sketchy on what exactly a core is...

Bagheera wrote:That seems unnecessarily baroque to me. Of course it's possible, but why is it necessary? Let's keep things as simple as we can.

Complex, yes. But it is an explanation that puts everything in its place as seen (2nd Impact flashbacks) and described (the CI materials).

Otherwise...we're back at square one with what we know:

1. Someone inserted human DNA into Adam (what that entails, we don't know)
2. Adam awoke, exploded/caused 2nd Impact (or are these "separate" in the sense that it happened in a series of steps?)
3. Dr. Katsuragi is seen carrying Misato to safety after 2nd Impact started or before at least, the big explosion... (not sure of the specifics, but he certainly couldn't have been adsorbed into Adam or tanged)
4. The soul "few off somewhere" and later reappeared whole within Kaworu
5. Adam's body eventually restored itself to a fetal form (as seen in ep. 8)
6. Kaworu can sync easily with Eva 02
7. Kaworu can take full control of Eva 02 (since Kyoko was hiding)
8. Kaworu dummy plugs are inserted into the MPE's

We can conclude that Adam got his new human house from someone either:

During/the initiation of the impact via a CE or

After the soul flew off at an undisclosed time during the 15 years leading up to Kaworu's arrival.
(Although, they did say he was born on the same day as 2nd Impact)

Bagheera wrote:The Angels are Adam's progeny (Misato calls humanity the 18th Angel, though I'm not sure how reliable that info is; regardless, Seeds and Angels are different beasts)

I think the "18th Angel" comment was meant to be more symbolic than anything. It her was way of confirming what Ritsuko said before about the components being different but the arrangement being the same in regards to human and angel DNA. Plus, the distinction of human/angle gets further blurred with Rei and Kaworu in general (and the Evas by extension).

It's all a matter of the theme of "Man's greatest enemy is himself" -- one giant metaphor for human interaction and this strange tendency towards wanting to destroy each other. This is evidenced further by blatantly seeing humans kill each other in EoE and the "big battle" of the movie being Eva on Eva rather than Eva on Angel.

Plus, I kind feel like the MPE's are what Kaworu's "Tarbis" from would've looked like had he arrived in Tokyo 3 in the conventional manner that the other angels did when making their attacks. This is exemplified by the fact that the last three Angels:

Arael (as a pair of wings), Armisael (as a halo) , and Kaworu himself (as a humanoid body) present the collective image of a "classic angel". The MPE's are, in a sense, the final synthesized version of this.

Anyway, I've always felt that the Seeds/FAR were more or less the "Angels that make Angels".

In that regard, there's very little difference between Angels and Human (aside from appearance and powers)., i.e. "fundamentally the same creature" unable to coexist together.

What I'd like to know is, how does one classify GNR/K seeing as it is the ultimate andorgyne fusion of Adam and Lilith/Angel and Human?

SawItAtAge10 wrote:How do we know they had no interaction?

We don't know that, but we're not given any reason to think they did.

Also, who's to say the core wasn't something manufactured as way to separate the two halves of Lilith?

Eh? Both Seeds and all Angels have cores. If Lilith is being cloned/copied it's reasonable to assume her core was copied, too.

Complex, yes. But it is an explanation that puts everything in its place as seen (2nd Impact flashbacks) and described (the CI materials).

I don't think Lilith/Yui interaction is needed to explain things, though. Everything's addressed without that.

After the soul flew off at an undisclosed time during the 15 years leading up to Kaworu's arrival.
(Although, they did say he was born on the same day as 2nd Impact)

Yes. At the very least that would mean his body was created then (though the gods alone know how). When his soul met up with it is a separate issue.

Bagheera wrote:We don't know that, but we're not given any reason to think they did.

I assumed that Rei I (who know represents a fragment of Lilith's soul) and the way she interacted with Shinji in ep. 14 would've have at least been the clues that could lead to audience to draw this conclusion in the same way that there is only a somewhat vague trail of breadcrumbs leading to one assuming Rei is a "clone" of Yui in the first place.

Bagheera wrote:? Both Seeds and all Angels have cores. If Lilith is being cloned/copied it's reasonable to assume her core was copied, too.

I'm still a bit fuzzy on what a core is/does...For the sake of argument, can you define this a bit for me?

Bagheera wrote: don't think Lilith/Yui interaction is needed to explain things, though. Everything's addressed without that.

I just meant that it can be used as frame of reference in regards to Adam/2I, such as the way Shinji inside of Eva 01 in ep. 20 is a frame of reference for how Yui got inside it (as revealed in ep. 21). Incidentally, I feel like, Yui could've (if some egregious reason she chose to) have "switched places" with Shinji and inserted herself into his reconstructed body and abandoned his soul in Eva 01..I guess a variable would be whether he chose to do that as well...It would make excellent fanfcition fodder anyway!

Bagheera wrote:. At the very least that would mean his body was created then (though the gods alone know how). When his soul met up with it is a separate issue.

Here's a "crazed" theory. Perhaps, the bodily dissolving/replication DID happen with Dr. K and the one we see carrying Misato ins't "the real" Dr. K" but in fact a soul-swapped version created by Adam just prior to the explosion and it sacrificing itself was the first symbolic signs of the messiah-complex Kaworu would undertake (hence the cross imagery). Perhaps, before it became unstable, the real Dr. K was trapped inside of Adam's body but was unable to control it. Meanwhile, "Adam" (i.e. his soul) saw Dr. K's memories/experiences when they were temporarily unified as one, and has decided to take sympathy on the humans thus, its priority becomes a rescue mission of the one closest to the being it made contact with: Misato. From there, we can extrapolate that Dr. K is Kaworu's "father" in the sense that Yui is Rei's "mother" whilst Adam is Kaworu's other father/former incarnation and Lilith is Rei's other mother/former incarnation.

SawItAtAge10 wrote:I assumed that Rei I (who know represents a fragment of Lilith's soul) and the way she interacted with Shinji in ep. 14 would've have at least been the clues that could lead to audience to draw this conclusion in the same way that there is only a somewhat vague trail of breadcrumbs leading to one assuming Rei is a "clone" of Yui in the first place.

It's not really the same. There are numerous comparisons made between the two of them in the show (Naoko recognizes her, for instance), and we're told outright that Rei was made from Yui's remains in the CI. The speculation there is the how, not the if.

I'm still a bit fuzzy on what a core is/does...For the sake of argument, can you define this a bit for me?

The core is where the Seed's/Angel's soul (and S2 organ, if applicable) are housed. It's also where the entry plugs go when the pilots synchronize with the Evas -- that's how they come into contact with the Eva's resident soul.

SawItAtAge10 wrote:Plus, I kind feel like the MPE's are what Kaworu's "Tarbis" from would've looked like had he arrived in Tokyo 3 in the conventional manner that the other angels did when making their attacks.

I prefer to think Kaworu's true 'angel' form would have looked like THIS.

Bagheera wrote:Note there's no reason to assume Yui's remains were used to create Rei before Unit 01 and Lilith split. It could happen months or even years later; we don't even know how Lilith's soul got into Rei to begin with, so there's no way to establish that part of the timeline.

I believe the little half-grown Rei's growing out of Lilith's remains are evidence that they tried to use "Yui's salvaged remains" as a seed to grow her out of Lilith the same way they caused 01 to bud off. I suspect this was done while they were still connected because the point was to get Yui out, not to capture Lilith. Considering Fuyu's "The product of my despair" line I believe he's the one who came up with this plan.

Kaworu (and every eva except 01) was likely created from the same process using one of the other embryo samples.

Also? We don't see any evidence that Lilith has a core. Same for Rei and Kaworu, for that matter.

Bagheera wrote:It's not really the same. There are numerous comparisons made between the two of them in the show (Naoko recognizes her, for instance), and we're told outright that Rei was made from Yui's remains in the CI. The speculation there is the how, not the if.

In regards to Rei, I was merely drawing attention to the fact her oddness leant enough clues to draw attention long before any conclusions are made about her. In that same way the strangeness of what's happening inside Eva 01 in ep. 14 draws attention in such a way as to provoke the asking of questions...In that vein they are similar. However, the pay-off comes in completely different way. This scenario was Shinji's first communication with Rei's soul as opposed to Rei herself. This doesn't occur again until everyone is inside the sea of LCL (yes I'm purposely negating pre-3I here simply because we have yet to give that event a clear definition).

The key here is the LCL, the ability to deflate into this liquid, release your soul, and then rebuild your body again is seen in ep. 20 (thus he' already gone through the process we see near the end of the film and what the rest of humanity (besides Shinji and Asuka) have to do if they want to come back. That event, of course, was spoken of comparatively speaking to Yui's situation with Eva 01. Thus it stands to reason that if the "resurrection" from LCL in EoE (which involves communication with Lilith/Rei) is analogous to both Ep. 20's "resurrection" and Ep. 21's flashback of "non-ressurection" then it stands to reason that the CE literally involved "contact"/communication of some kind with Lilith's soul in its pre-Rei form on the part of Yui.

Bagheera wrote:I core is where the Seed's/Angel's soul (and S2 organ, if applicable) are housed. It's also where the entry plugs go when the pilots synchronize with the Evas -- that's how they come into contact with the Eva's resident soul.

So, the "red thing" on the Angel's body? I also assumed that was kind of the "egg sack" that the Angel was "pregnant" with when making their attacks..In that regard, I always thought that upon defeating humans/ the Angels would use that to make a new species/race that looked like them.

(Which is kind of adorable when think about it-- I mean consider the thought of a baby Sachiel or baby Zeruel with its little toilet paper arms? )


In regards to the creation of Eva 01's core, it would've had to been put in place while Eva 01 was still attached to "differentiate" it as being "separate" from its "mother" form. Or maybe (as suggested by the presence of what appears to be an entry-plug at Antarctica as well as the "pylons" attached to Adam's body), perhaps in the case of Adam and Lilith, the CE's were merely Gehirn & Co. trying to mechanize and control/manipulate the Seeds directly..So maybe the absorption and everything that followed (including 2I) were truly accidents...but that doesn't seem likely given how much Gendo (in Antarctica) and Yui ( as a test subject) seemed to know...

Thus, it stands the CE of Lilith to create Eva 01 (and eventually Rei I) seems to have necessitated to the insertion of mechanized core in order for Yui to have initialized contact in the first place...Perhaps what occurred in Yui's soul being entrapped and her "flesh" becoming Lilith's new temporary home was a matter of synchronicity between the two souls (within two cores) in one body (the double-cross Lilith).

Now, I have mentioned the '"double cross" a lot in regards to the earliest known form of Lilith. But that symbol is known as the Cross of Lorraine.It is typically used to symbolize a thing (such as cross) and its inversion coming together as one, sort of a "union of opposites" like light/dark or good/evil coming together to become new thing where the different arts become indiscernible. I assume that without the mask (on Lilith) and the armor on Eva 01 (which I consider to be Lilith's "shadow") they would look effectively, like mirror images of each other. The "new" synthesized thing emerged was Rei herself. She incorporates the duality of human/angel relations by having a Seed soul within a human body (kind of like the way Jesus described as God inside of a human body). In that same way, Kaworu does basically the same thing and even discovers "Adam's dark shadow" in the form of the first true "Eva" (in the sense that it's an Adamic body harboring a human soul within) of the series: Unit 02.

I prefer to think Kaworu's true 'angel' form would have looked like

That angel is the coolest looking made up one. But I would have prefered the fem-Kaworu wearing nothing but a shirt, to be his final form.

I believe the little half-grown Rei's growing out of Lilith's remains are evidence that they tried to use "Yui's salvaged remains" as a seed to grow her out of Lilith the same way they caused 01 to bud off. I suspect this was done while they were still connected because the point was to get Yui out, not to capture Lilith. Considering Fuyu's "The product of my despair" line I believe he's the one who came up with this plan.

That's one of the things I think is kind of genius about eva, not showing spelling stuff out for you makes things seem more realistic and draws people into it. It's almost like a detective story. Lately I've been wondering if this was done on purpose or if it was just accidental. I wonder if anno only had a vague idea of how it happened too.

NemZ wrote:I prefer to think Kaworu's true 'angel' form would have looked like THIS.

Kaworu's "true" Angel form is Adam.

Also? We don't see any evidence that Lilith has a core. Same for Rei and Kaworu, for that matter.

And yet we know she has to have one, since Unit 01 does.

Bagheera wrote:And yet we know she has to have one, since Unit 01 does.

Is that necessarily so, though?

pwhodges wrote:Is that necessarily so, though?

Strictly speaking, no. But given that Lilith's a Seed, and that the only other Seed we know has one, and that unit 01 is a copy of her, it would be a fairly natural assumption.

Rei floated right up to Lilith's solar plexus, which gaped wide open to swallow Rei up. Nothing there but marshmallowy goodness. I just assume Lilith doesn't have a traditional core (i.e., big red ball) for the same reason she has such a weird physique and constitution compared to her ostensible clone. Fanwank something.