Shoujo Kakumei Asuka wrote:First off on a tangent, nihilism is just a position rejecting the idea of meaning in life. Although they're typically portrayed that way, not all nihilists have to necessarily have a negative outlook on life.

I am a nihilist and an optimist.

Shoujo Kakumei Asuka wrote:isn't the consensus now that Shinji somehow "willed" the world to die at the end of 2.0?

I am not part of that consensus.

Shoujo Kakumei Asuka wrote:Second, I honestly don't think forgiveness from Wille is very realistic, even if I think it's what's going to happen in 3.0 + 1.0. If I truly believed someone was responsible for the death of most life on Earth, I would kill them, no question. I think most people would. I will continue to insist on this.

You can insist upon it all you like, but the fact it's a minority viewpoint suggests that's not a very tenable position.

Additionally, isn't the consensus now that Shinji somehow "willed" the world to die at the end of 2.0?

No.

Rei IV wrote:I never understood the "Shinji should just kill himself" crowd.

I'm pretty sure I don't agree, but the reasoning I think others have. the "Shinji Should just kill himself' crowd is this.

When I personally see Shinji suffering the way he did, being rejected by the only people he could ever call friends, possibly killing Touji and Kensuke? Being made responsible for the worst thing any human being could ever be responsible for? Twice over?

What kind of life can he honestly expect to have after this? He's practically a terminal patient at this point, and the disease is being responsible for is the part his played in wiping out the human race. A whole generation has gone by, people were born and raised in this world he created, raised knowing Shinji Ikari screwed them over. Even if he is freed due to a legal loophole or 'attenuating circumstances' as most people put it. How long is he going to be around before he's shot and killed by Joe Cho survivor of third impact, who lost his family because of his actions?

Best case scenario i see is indefinite protective custody. How is that going to help him recover mentally and psychologically if he's restricted from meeting new people and having a normal life because everyone wants the son of the worlds greatest monster, the one responsible for their problems dead? If he is responsible in the way many people seem to believe he is, then

If you knew your loved one was going to be in pain for the rest of his life, unable to do anything normal people take for granted, because of the disease or injury. Instead of stretching out their suffering further over years and years knowing there's no miracle cure or medical treatment that is ever going to make things better, wouldn't it be more merciful to simply put the suffering person out of their misery?

I don't think Shinji should kill himself. But really, I don't see him living anything but a haunted miserable existence after what he pulled in 3.0.

On top of that another reason people say Shinji would be better off dead is: If Misato had pulled the trigger for the collar and killed Shinji, or if he had killed himself following him finding out what he did to the world. Would Gendo have his awakened Eva and be on the winning side of the war?

Again, that's why I hate the twist Anno pulled in 3.0. nobody deserves to be put in a position where everything literally would be better off if he/she were dead. But Anno always puts him in a position where he would have literally been better off just killing himself. No Shinji no Impact. No awakened Eva.

WHY? WHAT IS THE POINT!? To say how the audience should stop caring for Shinji because he's never going to get a happy ending?

Q ended on a more positive note than EOE, IMHO.

Agreed but lets be honest, pretty much anything is more positive that EOE's ending.

Ray wrote:Agreed but lets be honest, pretty much anything is more positive that EOE's ending.

True for Last B. Not true for actual ending. Not even close.

Ray wrote:When I personally see Shinji suffering the way he did, being rejected by the only people he could ever call friends, possibly killing Touji and Kensuke? Being made responsible for the worst thing any human being could ever be responsible for? Twice over?

This is the issue I see-in reality no one has ever been responsible for a mistake of this magnitude. I feel like the analogy fails because of this-you will make mistakes, you will have to confront them. Life is typically not some fluffy paradise. However, beyond a certain point, people do make mistakes that irrevocably ruin their lives. Shinji's situation isn't that relevant since most people won't experience one that remotely approaches it in scale (I thankfully haven't). A mass murderer is not granted redemption, but death row. Likely the same will happen to Shinji. Again, I suppose the main problem is that I don't see how what Shinji did at the end of 2.0 could have led to Third Impact. But if we are to assume he IS responsible to some degree, giving him a second chance still doesn't seem realistic. There is the opinion some people on here have suggested, that he was manipulated into it and WILLE knows this, but I feel like their actions do not support this viewpoint heavily. If 4.0 supports this middle ground, than I'll be pleasantly surprised.

And I suppose that's it really. The new fan perception of Shinji is what has honestly gotten to me rather than the movies themselves. I feel like Eva may be rebooted after this without Shinji (but with the other characters) to make it more popular, and if that happens I won't have a part in it. Shinji is what made the show for me.

Also, people will always disagree about Eva. What I wrote is just my opinion. For one, many prominent posters still think that EOE was simply a bad end, without much hopefulness in it. This lack of a "right" perception is even more true when 4.0 hasn't aired.

I see myself as Shinji too. I think the only things separating us are loving parents and a (probably bad) sense of humor. However, I don't feel the same way about 3.0 because I'm almost certain that the next film is going to be about Shinji coming to terms with what he's done.. or rather, starting to almost maybe consider possibly coming to terms with what he's done. Something along those lines.

I forgot to quote the last post, and now I can't because of the forum's double post prevention, even though I would've edited the quote code into this post. Anyway, I don't see EoE as a bad end. I think it follows the same arc as EoTV, but does so more realistically and less cartoonishly optimistically.

Wait, I want to quote this post too.

"Finally, I think part of the reason Shinji's so unpopular is because he DOESN'T resonate with otaku. He can't sell merchandise easily, and doesn't have the easy appeal characters like Kaworu and Asuka have (while shallower than in the original franchise, they still aren't stereotypical shallow anime characters. Otaku ARE more comfortable with them than with Shinji, however). Most otaku don't see themselves to be Shinji, even if Anno wants them to, and would just prefer him to disappear from the series. I wouldn't find it to be that unrealistic that Evangelion may reboot as an otaku-pandering series, just without Shinji."

Wait, what? How could Shinji not resonate with otaku? He's the main character. The show is successful. For a show to be successful, I imagine the main character would have to be well-liked. (I know I wouldn't give a crap about Eva if it didn't resonate with me, but I'm not sure I'm the show's main demographic.)

OP has said a lot of things I want to respond to, but my reply-first-and-edit-later approach is making this really difficult.

In response to Ray and Shoujo's last posts, Shinji's having-messed-up-and-wanting-forgiveness is, indeed, astronomical in scale. However, so was Shinji's fate in EoE. It was supposed to be a "life goes on, deal with it" sort of thing (at least, that's how I interpreted it), so instead of giving him a happy ending, they give him a huge new challenge to face. And the huge new challenge is that he's alone on a desolated planet with someone who probably hates him. Exaggerating the "depression/social anxiety doesn't just end" message to this level isn't any different to me than exaggerating "making a big mistake and people won't forgive you for it" to this level. Eva's done this kind of hyperbolic stuff before.

@Shoujo Kakumei Asuka :

I feel you frustration, I was hoping Shinji finally do something good. But as long as Anno has anything to do Evangelion, It just will not happen. Anno’s a Shinji hater, the ‘Original Shinji Hater’. What you said about Shinji being written out of eva, is definitely possible. To my understanding the main character was originally meant to be Female (proto-Asuka) in Evangelion, and that they had to argue with Anno who relented and made a male MC (Shinji).


Believing that Shinji will be redeemed in the Final is foolish, Anno was perfectly content to leave it with EoE-Shinji. This reaction and hatred of Rebuild-Shinji is definitely what Anno wanted, it’s intentional. It also frustrating that the thing rebuild-Shinji is hated for by the characters is what the fanbase use to hate Gendo for. Really the only people that are defending Shinji are the people on sites like this.

And they’ve been defending him since Evangelion begun.

Series-Shinji: Wimpy, whiny, Yaoi bottom boy.
EoE-Shinji: Wretched, useless and ended the world.
Rebuild-Shinji: Stupid, impact starter that’s better off dead.


I like Shinji and think he’s one of the most touching anime characters I’ve seen, but I think that was unintentional and accidental on Anno’s part. I also think Shinji is the reason for evangelions success, one of the main reasons people keep coming back to eva is to finally see Shinji do something besides sucking. But you need to realize that Anno doesn’t like Shinji, he never did. He probably was forced on him from the start. It’s an amazing and ironic fluke that most of Anno’s artistic cred comes from his association to a character he doesn’t like and probably didn’t want in evangelion from the start.


You need to take a step back from Evangelion and abandon all hope for Shinji character. The only way Shinji’s ever going to be absolved is by spreading the word that Gendo is Anno’s self-insert.

[Just FYI, the organization is called Wille (Vill-eh), not to be mistaken with Steamboat Willie's name. Also, Shinji condemning humanity in EoE was considerably more passive and inadvertent than anything that happened in the new films. But, hey, fans have been clamoring for a less passive Shinji, so now they have one. Everything they ever dreamed, eh?]

Shinji condemning humanity in EoE was easy to miss and inadvertent. You were able to argue if he even was at fault or if it was Gendo, Seele, Unit 01 and Rei/Lilith who should be blamed. That is why in Q the whole movie is about "Shinji you suck! Look what you did, not once but twice. Three times if you count EoE." Rebuild Shinji isn't meant to be seen as less passive or take charge he's meant to be seen as bratty and dumb.

That maybe true, but you showing such empathy and compassion for Shinji's plight, despite his transgressions shows that there is hope for all of us.

Which, I think, is a message that Anno is trying to help us realize.

I would’ve written something stating why I think you are deluded and way too optimistic. But frankly, I’m concerned and a little creeped out with how cultist that whole post sounded.

Hmm; another message from Lalaland, I see.

Believing that Shinji will be redeemed in the Final is foolish

I wouldn't go that far. . .

I mean, I do want to believe Shinji will get out of this with a somewhat optimistic ending. But then the part of me that was emotionally DESTROYED by 3.0 admonishes me for it.

I guess I'm just worried about getting burned again, more than anything else.

Edit:
Have you ever had an experience, with a work of fiction where you can't even look at a picture of one of the character without becoming depressed?

That's my current relationship with Shinji as a character right now.

pwhodges wrote:Hmm; another message from Lalaland, I see.

And about as relevant.

I'd rather be a "deluded optimist" then preach whatever warped opinion you're spouting. You can't call yourself a Shinji fan and claim Shinji exists solely to be hated, that's not how it works. I have yet to see you say ANYTHING good about Shinji where he did benefit from the show, which he did.

But talking to you is like talking to a very shrill howler monkey, you can't hear everyone else's arguments over your own loud soap-boxing.

Anno doesn't like Shinji mainly because many of Shinji's shortcomings are also Anno's own. He doesn't hate the character per se, just what he sees of himself in the character.

I do consider myself a Shinji fan, his character is touching.

But really the show, EoE and Rebuild has done nothing but bash the guy.
It's gotten to the point that calling soemone "Shinji" or "just like Shinji", is an insult.



Just don't get your hopes up for final. Q left a lot of otakus going "This sucks and you suck Anno."
The boy could be in for another pounding.

The only way Shinji’s ever going to be absolved is by spreading the word that Gendo is Anno’s self-insert.

"Anno: That might be it. Perhaps Gendo is [a representation of] society itself."

Well nope, I shall not spread words who contradicts Anno's hypothetical idea.
My own opinion about the representations inside the show were that 1) Anno is Shinji, 2) Gendo is his Father, 3) Yui is his mother and so on..
Shinji being a representation of HardCore Otaku .. really ? So that's the symbolism behind Evangelion ?

To get back on topic, OP, you don't need to feel deperessed because the majority of the fandom hate his behavior, the all point of Evangelion is : "Accept your freakin' self", it's not "Stop being a whiny boy".

Shinji in 3.0 isn't stupid. He is lost as hell and consequently do stupid things. Anno wants to put Shinji in unfamiliar situation, so he can accentuate his loneliness. 3.0 is kinda the paroxysm of that, since he don't recognize the world he's in.

Relating to, or even bottom-line equating oneself to Shinji seems to be a strong recurrence among Eva fans - and among those that dislike him, avoiding or ignoring their similarities like the goddamn plague. I'm not going to lie, as any decently long Evangelion marathon will remind me, that I - as do many of you - possess an uncomfortably large number of traits - mentality, personality, behavioral, or otherwise - with the Third Child(ren).

Probably the only significant departure most of us would take from Shinji (myself included) would be dealing with suddenly being thrust into the epicenter of Third Impact and the HIP; I doubt any of us would have made it all the way through, faltering or otherwise dooming humankind in the process somehow, regardless of interpretation.