Of course he does! He just hopes he finishes Q first.
Flaws in NGE?
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Of course he does! He just hopes he finishes Q first.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.
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I'm sorry, did you want to watch Gurren Lagann? I think you wanted to watch Gurren Lagann. That forum's elsewhere.
"I am shocked, SHOCKED, that a regular on an Evangelion forum would be a self-hating mess." - Tarnsman, paraphrased
"Jesus Christ, why are we even still talking about this shit?" - The Eva Monkey, summing up Evageeks in a sentence
Avatar: The Frozen Flame ~ Where Angels Lose Their Way
"Jesus Christ, why are we even still talking about this shit?" - The Eva Monkey, summing up Evageeks in a sentence
Avatar: The Frozen Flame ~ Where Angels Lose Their Way
Back on the topic of episode 11's relativity
I never really liked that episode to be honest but the whole abortion imagery is probably there for some obscure reason (one of many Anno only knows the answer to) you could say is some messed up way that Asuka would rather have been aborted introducing the whole concept of Asuka shitty childhood or it could just back up the "Angels are children" theory. Another thing about episode 7 is (and I could be extremely wrong) that they never show who sabotaged (oh god I'm blanking) Jet-Alone(?) or who at last minute shut it down or in ep 11 when it is never revealed who cut the power source, Gendo did say that it was a human that did it, not an angel.
I never really liked that episode to be honest but the whole abortion imagery is probably there for some obscure reason (one of many Anno only knows the answer to) you could say is some messed up way that Asuka would rather have been aborted introducing the whole concept of Asuka shitty childhood or it could just back up the "Angels are children" theory. Another thing about episode 7 is (and I could be extremely wrong) that they never show who sabotaged (oh god I'm blanking) Jet-Alone(?) or who at last minute shut it down or in ep 11 when it is never revealed who cut the power source, Gendo did say that it was a human that did it, not an angel.
True Blood!
Polker11 wrote:Back on the topic of episode 11's relativity
I never really liked that episode to be honest but the whole abortion imagery is probably there for some obscure reason (one of many Anno only knows the answer to) you could say is some messed up way that Asuka would rather have been aborted introducing the whole concept of Asuka shitty childhood or it could just back up the "Angels are children" theory. Another thing about episode 7 is (and I could be extremely wrong) that they never show who sabotaged (oh god I'm blanking) Jet-Alone(?) or who at last minute shut it down or in ep 11 when it is never revealed who cut the power source, Gendo did say that it was a human that did it, not an angel.
Ritsuko both sabotaged Jet Alone and shut it down; the whole thing was a setup to make the robot look bad.
Kaji cut the power in Ep 11.
Also, you seem to be mixing up 10 and 11.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.
I just realized this:
The LCL is liquid right? So, when Rei was being raped by Armisael, and started crying, wouldn't that mean that her teardrops would float in the LCL?
The LCL is liquid right? So, when Rei was being raped by Armisael, and started crying, wouldn't that mean that her teardrops would float in the LCL?
Avatar: The Old Master.
The Moats of Quotes
"Life is becoming more and more indistinguishable from Onion articles." ~Monk Ed
"Oh my gods, that is awesome. I am inclined to forgive both Grant and the dub in general for that." ~Bagheera
"I don't try to engage in intelligent conversation here anymore."~Chee
"Look, if loving a clone of your mom is wrong, I don't wanna be right." ~Chuckman
|Why angels fight.|What Bagheera is talking about.|
The Moats of Quotes
"Life is becoming more and more indistinguishable from Onion articles." ~Monk Ed
"Oh my gods, that is awesome. I am inclined to forgive both Grant and the dub in general for that." ~Bagheera
"I don't try to engage in intelligent conversation here anymore."~Chee
"Look, if loving a clone of your mom is wrong, I don't wanna be right." ~Chuckman
|Why angels fight.|What Bagheera is talking about.|
- AshPhoenix
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Not if LCL is less dense than salt water (i.e., tears). Either way, you're right, though. The tears shouldn't have fallen that fast, even if LCL is less dense than tears. I guess it's just an anime physics thing.
Ritsuko: It can't be...an Angel devoured an Eva? That's impossible!
Maya: That's strange. The target's identification signal is turning into Zerogouki's!
~Once again proving...you are what you eat.~
(After adding something sexual to a perfectly normal post) "Fixed." --Apparently everybody on this forum.
It is unnerving to be proven wrong, particularly when you are really right and the person who is really wrong is the one who is proving you wrong and proving himself, wrongly, right. Right?
Maya: That's strange. The target's identification signal is turning into Zerogouki's!
~Once again proving...you are what you eat.~
(After adding something sexual to a perfectly normal post) "Fixed." --Apparently everybody on this forum.
It is unnerving to be proven wrong, particularly when you are really right and the person who is really wrong is the one who is proving you wrong and proving himself, wrongly, right. Right?
- SawItAtAge10
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Bagheera wrote:I admit that'd make for some decent fanfic. Messy, but I can see how it'd work.
I don't. IMO the problem here is that you're thinking of Kaworu as a human, and expecting him to bond with Shinji as such. But he isn't a human. He's an angel, and his bonding with Shinji isn't one of friendship -- it's an attack (whether or not he intends it to be such is a matter of debate, but there's no denying what it is). It's supposed to slip past Shinji's defenses like they're not even there, and the slow buildup you describe doesn't fit with what Kaworu is.
Kaworu isn't some good friend who betrays the hero. Rather, he's the final enemy that's meant to break him. When you look at the episode in that context I think it's a lot easier to take at face value.
This is an interesting position to take in the sense that almost every Angel's "character arc" is literally the span of one episode: they arrive, make an attack, and are destroyed in an Eva battle. The fact that Tarbis showed up as human in the form of Kaworu is part of the attack itself. Shinji's conversations with him are the attacks. The final attack is in line with every other angel's death: at the hands of an Eva (usually Unit 01).
Also, after Zereul (arguably the most aggressive up to that point), the Angels' tactics had shifted from physical brutality to psychological invasion. What's more invasive than human interaction?
In that sense, Shinji relinquishes part of his personal A.T. field through is communication with Kaworu who acts as sort of moth piece that vocalizes the motivations of the Angels themselves.
Thus, Kaworu kind of comes and goes just as much as an other angel in the series (with the exceptions of Lilith and Adam of course).
The fact that he comes as a human has many other foreshadowing/symbolic implications as well...
FROM EVANGELION:
"Acts of Man are greater than acts of God!"
"I'm saying that I love you."
NOT FROM EVANGELION:
"You are excrement. You can change yourself into gold."
"Acts of Man are greater than acts of God!"
"I'm saying that I love you."
NOT FROM EVANGELION:
"You are excrement. You can change yourself into gold."
- LordThaeon
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Objectively, the biggest weak spot of NGE is SEELE themselves.
The series consists of this organization making mostly idiotic and avoidable decisions that only hamper their plans and yet, they still end up "winning" and accomplishing their goal.
They only stand as antagonists because the plot wants them to succeed and their pathetic/selfish motivations are wrapped in pseudo-philosophy and unfounded self-righteousness.
Not to mention that the series itself (aka, no outside supplemental material) doesn't do a good job of clarifying the differences between Gendo's instrumentality and Seele's instrumentality and why they'd end up betraying each other except to decide who "controls" Third Impact. But again, if the result is apparently the same either way then what's the point? Why trust Gendo at all and not try to take him out at the earliest opportunity so that their version of Third Impact can proceed on the path of least resistance?
The series consists of this organization making mostly idiotic and avoidable decisions that only hamper their plans and yet, they still end up "winning" and accomplishing their goal.
They only stand as antagonists because the plot wants them to succeed and their pathetic/selfish motivations are wrapped in pseudo-philosophy and unfounded self-righteousness.
Not to mention that the series itself (aka, no outside supplemental material) doesn't do a good job of clarifying the differences between Gendo's instrumentality and Seele's instrumentality and why they'd end up betraying each other except to decide who "controls" Third Impact. But again, if the result is apparently the same either way then what's the point? Why trust Gendo at all and not try to take him out at the earliest opportunity so that their version of Third Impact can proceed on the path of least resistance?
- Shoujo Kakumei Asuka
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I agree with SEELE always winning even though their plans didn't seem that great. I honestly think that Eva was meant to mostly be about the characters, and that they almost didn't think many of the overall events were that important. That's why we're still piecing everything together 20 years after the fact. This is why SEELE was presented as something almost all-powerful within the series. They were presented as this ominous, oppressive force that further weighed down upon the already depressed and stressed-out characters within the show.
I felt like I was watching a dream I could never wake up from. Before I knew it, the dream was all over... - Spike Spiegel
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SPOILER: Show
SawItAtAge10 wrote:This is an interesting position to take in the sense that almost every Angel's "character arc" is literally the span of one episode: they arrive, make an attack, and are destroyed in an Eva battle. The fact that Tarbis showed up as human in the form of Kaworu is part of the attack itself. Shinji's conversations with him are the attacks. The final attack is in line with every other angel's death: at the hands of an Eva (usually Unit 01).
Also, after Zereul (arguably the most aggressive up to that point), the Angels' tactics had shifted from physical brutality to psychological invasion. What's more invasive than human interaction?
In that sense, Shinji relinquishes part of his personal A.T. field through is communication with Kaworu who acts as sort of moth piece that vocalizes the motivations of the Angels themselves.
Thus, Kaworu kind of comes and goes just as much as an other angel in the series (with the exceptions of Lilith and Adam of course).
The fact that he comes as a human has many other foreshadowing/symbolic implications as well...
The number of fans who see Kaworu and Shinji as the ideal/preferred relationship in the series is a testament to the effectiveness of the attack
"The will to lose one's will?"
"Absolutely. The will to make oneself completely free. Will is the wrong word, because in the end you could call it despair. Because it really comes out of an absolute feeling of it's impossible to do these things, so I might as well just do anything. And out of this anything, one sees what happens."--Francis Bacon
"Absolutely. The will to make oneself completely free. Will is the wrong word, because in the end you could call it despair. Because it really comes out of an absolute feeling of it's impossible to do these things, so I might as well just do anything. And out of this anything, one sees what happens."--Francis Bacon
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Shoujo Kakumei Asuka wrote:I agree with SEELE always winning even though their plans didn't seem that great. I honestly think that Eva was meant to mostly be about the characters, and that they almost didn't think many of the overall events were that important. That's why we're still piecing everything together 20 years after the fact. This is why SEELE was presented as something almost all-powerful within the series. They were presented as this ominous, oppressive force that further weighed down upon the already depressed and stressed-out characters within the show.
I really see Seele in the background, pretty much all the time, no matter how many lines Keel or the monoliths get in a given episode.
The heroes and villains of the series are ultimately people/humanity. The biggest antagonist of any character in the series is, in order,
1 - themselves
2 - their parents
3 - their partners
Seele is a narrative device that basically ensures this happens also at humanity level, since the Angels would never have happened unless humanity bothered sleeping Adam, which in turn wasn't really meant to be there because planet Earth had already its Seed of Life (or wait were the Angels the true successors from the White Moon? I guess it doesn't matter?).
Seele is there to show how humanity can be its own enemy, the debate between science and para-religious creeds (i.e. what Seele is) is the battlefield of this struggle, just like for other characters it is the parent-child relationships, the partner relationships or the way you think about yourself (Freudian psychology and what not).
EoTV totally makes (even more) sense once you think about it.
I reckon the flaw of Eva, if anything, is that the window dressing is almost too good and, to me personally, it has aged better than the character aspect of the story, which are not so easy to appreciate. As a viewer, you are either too close to some of the characters (to the point you can't gaze at the mirror for too long through the story) or you are so far from them that you'll find them pathetic, ridiculous ("crying Shinji" was NGE's worst flaw in the eyes of the casual viewer) and consequently focus on the obvious giants mechas vs giant monsters stuff, just to then be disappointed by the unclear narration and small technical fallacies...
LordThaeon wrote:Objectively, the biggest weak spot of NGE is SEELE themselves.
The series consists of this organization making mostly idiotic and avoidable decisions that only hamper their plans and yet, they still end up "winning" and accomplishing their goal.
They only stand as antagonists because the plot wants them to succeed and their pathetic/selfish motivations are wrapped in pseudo-philosophy and unfounded self-righteousness.
As others have said, the real reason SEELE is all-powerful is because their whole conspiracy isn't meant to be "the point" of the show...but if we want a Watsonian explanation, it's this:
SEELE can afford to be sloppy because they don't have any enemies. They're running the whole show; they rule the world and no one can oppose them for long. NGE takes place in a world where the "bad guys" of another show—perhaps a Cold War-era spy drama, or a Dan Brown-style thriller—have already won.
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