What Now in terms of Children 2 & 3...Post-3I thoughts!

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Postby Bryan » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:24 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Why?


Just because something happens once doesn't mean we should assume it would happen again. Especially when it only happens to an anime protagonist.


View Original PostBagheera wrote:because it's pretty clearly not what Rei described.


It clearly IS a possibility of what Rei described. As has already been pointed out, can =/= will

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Because it would undermine the rest of the story in a very big way


I suspect you have an interesting perspective that makes that the case. I really am curious as to what that is. However, whatever it is, I have heard others in which it wouldn't be very illogical. Basically, the type of perspective that goes something along the lines of Evangelion being similar to a Greek tragedy and Shinji being similar to Oedipus.

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:29 pm

^

So are you saying that humanity is THAT collectively weak that they'd rather spend eternity as some formless ooze without the awareness of self, with no possibility of moving forward in away way instead of reforming themselves and having the will to live and move on?
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Postby Ray » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:37 pm

I suspect you have an interesting perspective that makes that the case. I really am curious as to what that is. However, whatever it is, I have heard others in which it wouldn't be very illogical. Basically, the type of perspective that goes something along the lines of Evangelion being similar to a Greek tragedy and Shinji being similar to Oedipus.


Well . . . isn't that what Eva is? A Greek tragedy for a contemporary Japanese audience to shake people out of their complacency and bitterness?
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Postby Bryan » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:01 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:^

So are you saying that humanity is THAT collectively weak that they'd rather spend eternity as some formless ooze without the awareness of self, with no possibility of moving forward in away way instead of reforming themselves and having the will to live and move on?


Well, I wouldn't say anything so definitive. I just think NemZ makes some good points about how paradoxical the whole process is. It might be too hard for almost anyone to do such a thing. But if you're pushing for my opinion, I am pretty pessimistic and I do lean towards thinking people are pretty weak-willed. :(

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Postby xanderkh » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:08 pm

^

Well, as an optimist myself (aside from my school :lol: ), I would have to disagree with that last statement.

While it's true that Shinji and Asuka are two unique individuals, who have gone through events that nobody but themselves can understand, that doesn't mean that there are others who can and will be just as strong as they are.

Scientists, explorers, philosophers, and just ordinary people in general have a huge drive to live and improve themselves and humanity in general. Just look how far we've come in the past decade.

If humanity was that weak-willed from the start, we wouldn't have bothered to leave our caves and face the dangers of the world when we just began.

The human will is a force that is often underestimated, which Seele eventually found out the hard way.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:11 pm

View Original PostBryan wrote:It's a possibility we should consider.
When I saw EoE, I was desperately trying all the way through to make it conform in my mind with what we had been shown in the TV ending -- qualifying their descent to the mundane as a special damnation for the pilots, while the rest of humanity ascended like stardust.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:32 am

View Original PostBryan wrote:Just because something happens once doesn't mean we should assume it would happen again. Especially when it only happens to an anime protagonist.


Given the process Rei described, the example of Asuka performing exactly as she predicted, and the numbers involved I simply don't find that a compelling argument. It's like saying "Tinkerbell did it!" and then responding to disbelief with "Well, you can't prove she didn't do it!"

View Original PostBryan wrote:Well, I wouldn't say anything so definitive. I just think NemZ makes some good points about how paradoxical the whole process is. It might be too hard for almost anyone to do such a thing. But if you're pushing for my opinion, I am pretty pessimistic and I do lean towards thinking people are pretty weak-willed. :(


The only way NemZ's argument works is if no one can do it and Rei brought Asuka out to keep Shinji happy. But that doesn't make sense because it would suggest she doesn't know how her own powers work, which might fly for Rei but definitely wouldn't for Lilith. She's not gonna try to sell Shinji on a scenario with no meaningful chance of success.

And the notion that most people are too weak to do it, but that Asuka, of all people, can manage it, is laughable. Prodigy or no this is not someone with a particularly strong sense of will or self-identity. Claiming she's special is a fundamental misread of her character (heck, her whole arc was a rather brutal message that she was not special, that she didn't live up to the hype, and that she was ultimately the least important element in the entire show).
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Postby NemZ » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:31 am

Rei said it with a qualifier that indicates it's possible but they need to make some effort on their own. She had hope for humanity and they disappointed her yet again.

And thank you for pointing out how unlikely someone like Asuka is to muster up the necessary willpower to reembody through force of will, as that helps to further bolster the argument that she's only there because Rei gave her a nudge back into existence.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:44 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Rei said it with a qualifier that indicates it's possible but they need to make some effort on their own. She had hope for humanity and they disappointed her yet again.


Except the fact Asuka's right there indicates she was spot on and anyone who cares to can come back as they like.

And thank you for pointing out how unlikely someone like Asuka is to muster up the necessary willpower to reembody through force of will, as that helps to further bolster the argument that she's only there because Rei gave her a nudge back into existence.


No, quite the opposite. It indicates she's not a special case at all, and that nobody needs assistance. Rather, it suggests that things are proceeding exactly as Rei described. Note I never said she couldn't do it -- I said she wasn't special, not that she was incapable.
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Postby pwhodges » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:39 am

I really don't think the whole caboodle was thrown together to give the message: "Humanity is doomed to a future of nothingness, and you are especially doomed to lingering isolation if you think you can change that". What was the point of any of it if that's how you're meant to take the ending?
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:45 am

More like "Don't be a depressive screw-up, otherwise your world will go to hell all around you." cautionary tale.
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:01 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:More like "Don't be a depressive screw-up, otherwise your world will go to hell all around you." cautionary tale.


If that was the goal there'd be no point to making the ending ambiguous -- we'd get Last B instead of what we did get.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Bryan » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:24 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Given the process Rei described, the example of Asuka performing exactly as she predicted, and the numbers involved I simply don't find that a compelling argument. It's like saying "Tinkerbell did it!" and then responding to disbelief with "Well, you can't prove she didn't do it!"



The only way NemZ's argument works is if no one can do it and Rei brought Asuka out to keep Shinji happy. But that doesn't make sense because it would suggest she doesn't know how her own powers work, which might fly for Rei but definitely wouldn't for Lilith. She's not gonna try to sell Shinji on a scenario with no meaningful chance of success.

And the notion that most people are too weak to do it, but that Asuka, of all people, can manage it, is laughable. Prodigy or no this is not someone with a particularly strong sense of will or self-identity. Claiming she's special is a fundamental misread of her character (heck, her whole arc was a rather brutal message that she was not special, that she didn't live up to the hype, and that she was ultimately the least important element in the entire show).


What I see as the most extraordinary claim here is that we should extrapolate what happened to Asuka to the rest of the world. There's tons of things that make her different from everyone else in the entire world, most but not all being her relationship to Shinji and the godly entity guiding instrumentality, that may have played a factor.

NemZ pointed out 2 different things. Firstly, that the process Rei describes sounds paradoxical and that she herself only said that it can happen, not that it will. That's not an argument, those are basically incontrovertible facts. The next question is how many people will actually do that. You take it as a given that the number will at least be bigger than 1. Of course I accept it might be, but why is it a given? Is it JUST because of Rei/Lilith's words? Now that's what I don't find compelling. As I said, she may have not wanted to further dim Shinji's hopes by throwing out probabilities. She also may have thought Asuka would be enough for him. And it's not like she was begging Shinji to do it with words like "If you wish once more for the existence of others, the barriers of the heart will separate everyone once more... And the fear of other people will begin again.".

The second thing he pointed out was his agreement with you that Asuka isn't special and that therefore she must have got a free ride from Rei. I don't agree with either of you on that though. We're not talking about the suicidal Asuka here. We're talking about the one who just reconciled things with her mother and pulled off the most impressive battle from an eva we've ever seen despite the improbability of success. That seems pretty special to me.

View Original PostBagheera wrote: If that was the goal there'd be no point to making the ending ambiguous -- we'd get Last B instead of what we did get.


Either way, things have become pretty hellish. The only question is how hellish.

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:50 am

View Original PostBryan wrote:That seems pretty special to me.

One in several billion special? How could you even know? (Alternatively: Do you really think that little of the whole of the rest of humanity?)
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Postby Jäeger » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:52 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:If that was the goal there'd be no point to making the ending ambiguous -- we'd get Last B instead of what we did get.


And that's a thing a lot of people dont't seem/want to understand...sadly a lot of times because "she is a b****, man!!!!"

I agree on Asuka's comeback because his will to live but.....why there??? She could have emerged anywhere in the world, but we find her by Shinji's side and in a very symbolic position (Anno's purpousal, of course she didn`t use make to be that way, she arrived by foot). To be there (talking about geography, not coming back from lcl) was Rei's work, helping her to be there??
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:58 am

^
I guess it can be seen kind of symbolic.


God gives Adam Eve while Adam's asleep and then Adam wakes up and strangles Eve to see if she's real.

I remember reading that in the bible.
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Postby Bryan » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:13 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:One in several billion special? How could you even know? (Alternatively: Do you really think that little of the whole of the rest of humanity?)


Maybe. Maybe not. I really don't know. It's kind of like imagining life on other planets. With all the billions of stars in the billions of galaxies I could imagine maybe there are billions of intelligent civilizations, but I wouldn't say there's definitely more than one.

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:24 am

Not comparable. We know that those billions of other people are there, and we know well enough that the capabilities of most of them fall within a reasonable range.
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Postby Bryan » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:01 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Not comparable. We know that those billions of other people are there, and we know well enough that the capabilities of most of them fall within a reasonable range.


We know that about the stars too. That's not really an argument for Asuka being the only one, just that it's easier to think about a situation as possibly special even if you don't think it is the more unknown factors you can introduce into it. The unknown factor in this situation which NemZ pointed out is how you actually do it. I see that as too huge of an unknown factor and Asuka is not nearly ordinary enough to draw any conclusions just from her.

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Postby Bagheera » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:02 am

View Original PostBryan wrote:What I see as the most extraordinary claim here is that we should extrapolate what happened to Asuka to the rest of the world.


That's not extraordinary in the least. Yui specifically says that all beings have the power to return to human form. There's nothing ambiguous about this statement: all beings have the power, period. All the have to do is be able to "imagine themselves in their own heart," whatever the hell that means. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think Asuka alone has this ability, particularly since Yui just said every living thing has it.

NemZ pointed out 2 different things. Firstly, that the process Rei describes sounds paradoxical and that she herself only said that it can happen, not that it will.


No. She said that when AT Fields returned people would feel pain. There was no qualifier there -- if she ended Instrumentality, people would feel pain again. You can't feel pain if you're a soup of LCL, so that means people would have to re-embody before they could hurt one another again. And lo, Asuka comes back and she and Shinji hurt one another, just as Rei said they would. There is nothing remotely paradoxical about this.

The next question is how many people will actually do that. You take it as a given that the number- will at least be bigger than 1. Of course I accept it might be, but why is it a given?


Because Yui said so.

Look, here's the basic problem with your argument: it isn't a natural reading of what's presented on the screen. Rei and Kaworu tell us what will happen, Yui gives her inspirational little speech, the Black Moon is destroyed and the souls of the world released, Asuka comes back, Shinji and Asuka hurt one another exactly as Rei said they would. The natural reading is that this is indicative of what's going on around the world (since we saw all the souls released and Yui specifically said every living thing had the power to come back). You're the one who's claiming that Asuka's the only one who's chosen to exercise this power, and you'll need a pretty compelling argument to get anyone to take said claim seriously. So far you haven't provided one.

Either way, things have become pretty hellish. The only question is how hellish.


We don't actually know that, and it's beside the point anyway.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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