What Now in terms of Children 2 & 3...Post-3I thoughts!

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:55 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Ehh... not entirely. They said people could, not that they would. And by the end they haven't, so it's an open question.


Two have, so I really don't think it is. If Asuka can do it why not anyone else?
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:05 pm

^ Well, they can, but that doesn’t mean that they will. I can do a lot of things tomorrow, but I probably will narrow it down to making a few follow-up phone-calls for video clients and re-watching Frozen as we get 6”-10” of snow in the state of NC.

Though, the simple fact that they can retake their physical form does mean that Shinji and Asuka don’t have to repopulate, so the context of the Garden of Eden still isn’t applicable here. (And even if no one else decides to show up and Asuka and Shinji do have to repopulate, I doubt that means that they will.)
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:26 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:^ Well, they can, but that doesn’t mean that they will. I can do a lot of things tomorrow, but I probably will narrow it down to making a few follow-up phone-calls for video clients and re-watching Frozen as we get 6”-10” of snow in the state of NC.

Though, the simple fact that they can retake their physical form does mean that Shinji and Asuka don’t have to repopulate, so the context of the Garden of Eden still isn’t applicable here. (And even if no one else decides to show up and Asuka and Shinji do have to repopulate, I doubt that means that they will.)


At least 3 billion souls in Instrumentality, and Asuka's the only one who bothers to come back? Really?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:35 pm

Also, ground zero of Third Impact isn't the only place on Earth where people might return, being as souls spread back across the planet...

Any symbolism that is present is superficial at best.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:01 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:At least 3 billion souls in Instrumentality, and Asuka's the only one who bothers to come back? Really?

Depends on how happy 3 billion people are inside Instrumentality. Granted, a fair amount might come to the same conclusion Shinji did and GTFO.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:37 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Depends on how happy 3 billion people are inside Instrumentality.

A.T. Fields returned when Shinji decided that Instrumentality sucked. The entire process ended during that climactic sequence where we saw Lilith die, the Black Moon get destroyed, and the disembodied souls of humanity get redistributed across Earth.

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Postby NemZ » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:12 am

Instrumentality ended, yes. Whether ATFs came back, however, is an unknown. Seems to me you need an "I" to project that field, and we have no verification that the multitudes have regained sense of self. Shinji wasn't in it properly so he doesn't count, and Rei's bookend appearance seems to signal that she was involved in facilitating Asuka's return.

That's assuming souls need to stay in LCL contact to maintain linkage. After an experience like that what's to stop them from just staying blended up and disjointed that way?
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Postby Jäeger » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:32 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:As often as Eva spits out Biblical imagery as much as possible, it also distances itself from Biblical contexts as much as possible. The Adam and Eve imagery is arguably there, but the context certainly isn't. This means that that Shinji and Asuka don't NEED to (re)populate the planet; only that it looks like they could if they wanted to.


That's my point : the biblical imagery is the first couple on earth, not the "we'll have to repopulate this place" motto. It's symbolism, like the whole scene.
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Postby pwhodges » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:46 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Rei's bookend appearance seems to signal that she was involved in facilitating Asuka's return. [...] what's to stop them from just staying blended up and disjointed that way?

Rei collected all the souls (without so much as a 'by your leave'); she could as easily facilitate the return of any or all of them.
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Postby Jäeger » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:57 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote: Shinji wasn't in it properly so he doesn't count, and Rei's bookend appearance seems to signal that she was involved in facilitating Asuka's return.



Wow, that's what I thought the first time I watched the movie. I was worried believing I was the only one.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:24 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Instrumentality ended, yes. Whether ATFs came back, however, is an unknown.


"Is it okay for the AT Field to cause you and others pain again?"

Seems to make it pretty clear that they come back.

Seems to me you need an "I" to project that field, and we have no verification that the multitudes have regained sense of self. Shinji wasn't in it properly so he doesn't count, and Rei's bookend appearance seems to signal that she was involved in facilitating Asuka's return.


Except Rei just explained how coming back works, and her explanation didn't involve anyone getting any help.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Jäeger » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:55 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:"Is it okay for the AT Field to cause you and others pain again?"

Seems to make it pretty clear that they come back.



Except Rei just explained how coming back works, and her explanation didn't involve anyone getting any help.


That's what I thought the second time I watched the movie :lol: don't forget that at first that ending would show us Asuka coming back from LCL
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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:54 pm

View Original PostJäeger wrote:That's my point : the biblical imagery is the first couple on earth, not the "we'll have to repopulate this place" motto. It's symbolism, like the whole scene.

The extent of the Biblical imagery seems to be suggesting a repeat of the exile from paradise. Instrumentality was supposed to be the return to Eden, but Shinji opted for going back to the world of hardship instead.

It's worth noting, perhaps, that the show's OP includes a very condensed and entirely visual version of the expulsion from Paradise. The cosmic spark creates a red universe (which suspiciously resembles the "LCL Sea"). A twelve-winged angel appears, and with it the transition to a blue universe, where life emerges from the ocean, cuing the title. In EoE, a 12-winged being (Lilith) first draws humanity back into the "red universe", and then another one (Yui) expels them from it, leaving them to, in a repeat of the opening, emerge from the oceans of the cruel physical world once more.

If you need visuals for that to make any sense, go here and scroll down a bit.

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Postby NemZ » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:28 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Rei collected all the souls (without so much as a 'by your leave'); she could as easily facilitate the return of any or all of them.


Of course she CAN... and she did, in the case of Asuka because nobody else seemed to be willing to do so and the baka was going crazy alone. But did she do so elsewhere? Did others come back on their own as she says they could? I have no idea.

Bagheera wrote:"Is it okay for the AT Field to cause you and others pain again?"
Seems to make it pretty clear that they come back.


It makes it clear it's possible, not a certainty. She's duly informing him of the potential risks of his choice.

Except Rei just explained how coming back works, and her explanation didn't involve anyone getting any help.


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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:24 pm

The actual confirmation that A.T. Fields return wasn't Kaworu's "are you SURE?" line, but the earlier one from Rei, "If you wish once more for the existence of others, the barriers of the heart will separate everyone once more." If you were paying attention in episode 24, "barrier of the heart" (perhaps more fluently, "mental barrier") means "A.T. Field". And we know that Shinji wishes for the return of others, therefore... A.T. Fields.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:in the case of Asuka because nobody else seemed to be willing to do so

...in that one tiny corner of the planet, which is such a shit-heap from having a planetoid excavated from the vicinity and a giant corpse fall on it, who in their right mind would WANT to return there?...

How can you imagine yourself in your own heart if there is no self to do this imagining?

Return of A.T. Field, return of self. Simple.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:32 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:It makes it clear it's possible, not a certainty. She's duly informing him of the potential risks of his choice.


Having an AT Field is not the same thing as having a physical body. AT Fields did come back. That was the consequence of Shinji's decision, and what Rei and Kaworu were explaining there. Actually using that AT Field to make a body is a separate matter, and the part that is uncertain.

Yes, and as I've argued elsewhere I'm not sure that's actually true. How can you imagine yourself in your own heart if there is no self to do this imagining?


You're arguing with what Rei actually said, man. It doesn't matter how; she said people can do it, so they can. I mean, look: Rei says this can happen. Asuka proceeds to do it. And here you're saying "no, Asuka didn't actually do anything, Rei was wrong, and she forced Asuka to come back because Shinji was lonely." What the hell, man? Why not just take the text at face value and assume Asuka did exactly what Rei said people can do? She already gave us a perfectly good explanation of what's happening, so why invent something else out of whole cloth to explain it?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Bryan » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:35 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:At least 3 billion souls in Instrumentality, and Asuka's the only one who bothers to come back? Really?


It's a possibility we should consider. It might take a very unique kind of individual and Asuka is definitely one of the most unique people on the planet after everything she went though. Heck, she was already pretty damn unique before it started if we believe she has a college education at her age.

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Postby pwhodges » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:48 pm

I know Shinji decided that it was OK to feel pain again; but for Rei to end instrumentality at his request if it was likely that almost no one else would come back would have been outright cruelty. She wouldn't have offered that, and Anno wouldn't have written it.
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Postby Bryan » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:00 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I know Shinji decided that it was OK to feel pain again; but for Rei to end instrumentality at his request if it was likely that almost no one else would come back would have been outright cruelty. She wouldn't have offered that, and Anno wouldn't have written it.


Rei didn't know what would happen and may not have found it useful to throw probabilities at his face regardless of what they were. She knew what was theoretically possible and that's all the info she gave him/us. As for Anno, he left it up to interpretation and we have to deal with that, but I am curious as to why you think he wouldn't have written it that way. Because surely nobody could be that depressing?

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Postby Bagheera » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:08 pm

View Original PostBryan wrote:It's a possibility we should consider.


Why?

View Original PostBryan wrote:As for Anno, he left it up to interpretation and we have to deal with that, but I am curious as to why you think he wouldn't have written it that way. Because surely nobody could be that depressing?


Because it would undermine the rest of the story in a very big way, and because it's pretty clearly not what Rei described.

Also because it's silly.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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