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Ray
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Postby Ray » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:01 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Maybe he should do something, but something other than getting in the robot...

(see below)


Rest assured, he will have to get back into the robot at some point. . . how that plays out is entirely in Anno's hands.

I repeat, I don't see a happy ending for him after everything he's suffered and made others suffer. He tried to make the situation better and be forgiven, it only succeeded in making a bad situation worse. If they didn't have a decent reason to hate him before they sure do now.

Final will be really depressing, I have no doubt about that.
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:12 pm

Well yes, I do expect Anno will put him back into Unit-01 - I don't see him using my solution to avoiding it. But there's plenty of scope for surprises - like, we don't actually have a single clue how Anno's going to wrap this up!
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:22 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:like, we don't actually have a single clue how Anno's going to wrap this up!

Exciting, isn't it? :D
Last edited by ElMariachi on Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby LightDragonman » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:27 am

I find it more worrisome than exciting, if only because it has the potential to go all LOST/Mass Effect 3/ Matrix Revolutions on us.
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Postby pwhodges » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:38 am

Just stick with "potential", and let the anticipation grow!
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Postby robersora » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:40 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Final will be really depressing, I have no doubt about that.


I really don't think so. Given Anno's mental state in EoE and Q, I doubt, he will go back to that mental state once more. But we'll see.
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Postby unitM » Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:53 pm

This fucked up ending idea just popped into my head.

So we know Shinji fucked up, he might have not done it on purpose but regardless, accountability is accountability. He's responsible for the death(or worse?) of millions(?) of innocent people. Kaworu hammers this in and talks about redemption and how no sin is forgivable.

Well what if Shinji's sin's aren't forgiven?

What if he's the one nailed to the cross for Gendou's sinning in FINAL? Gendou ends up in heaven with his wife... Shinji burns in hell. I doubt Gendou is planning to use Shinji as a stepping stone to get his entire way - I doubt Gendou really doesn't have Shinji's best interest in mind, and maybe he's aiming for a family of 3 in instrumentality limbo.

But what if he calls it wrong? What if Shinji accidentally gets tossed off the cliff?

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:03 pm

WILLE aren't stupid, they know that SEELE and Gendo are the mastermind behind all those impacts (hell, Kaji already knew that Shinji triggering N3I for Rei was part of Gendo's plan while said Impact was happening!), so yes maybe Shinji will get a sentence for his participation in N3I and N4I, but I really doubt that he'll take everything for Gendo and SEELE's actions.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby unitM » Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:32 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:WILLE aren't stupid, they know that SEELE and Gendo are the mastermind behind all those impacts (hell, Kaji already knew that Shinji triggering N3I for Rei was part of Gendo's plan while said Impact was happening!), so yes maybe Shinji will get a sentence for his participation in N3I and N4I, but I really doubt that he'll take everything for Gendo and SEELE's actions.
I understand that. But here's the thing: I'm not talking about WILLE.

I don't know about you, but I can see Gendo getting his way. Gendo and SEELE are different entities now. That was hard established in Q. SEELE in fact appears to be a different entity than humanity altogether. But Gendo and SEELE both have competing goals, which take the trip down instrumentality.

On the way down to Lilith in Q, Kaworu promised Shinji that if they pulled the Spears, things would reset back to a better time. When Kaworu showed Shinji the outside world, Kaworu also expressed inspired sympathy towards Shinji's situation. Though he couldn't quite tell Shinji that what happened wasn't his fault, he also felt free enough to leave the audience with messages related to redemption and vindication.

But then Kaworu died.

So what I'm saying is this. Imagine if you will, instrumentality to begins, but this time, it's not entirely in the hands of Shinji to control. Gendo thinks he plays a part in it but he loses power somewhere. The force that determines the outcome of instrumentality now could be Adam, Lilith, or perhaps another angel altogether. Because it's instrumentality, there is a lot of room for spiritual entities. What's important though, is that Gendo loses his control over things.

What if, whatever entity involved in figuring out the mechanics of instrumentality, decides to promote Gendo and Yui above Shinji, while Shinji gets thrown into hell? Basically the ultimate powerlessness just as your species is ascending. Think the image of everyone going to heaven at the same time on earth but Shinji gets left behind. But since his sins are so impressive, he gets booted further down. Kaworu gave not only Shinji but the viewers hope that Shinji can still make it. But Kaworu's plans were off the mark and Kaworu was further executed.

What if Shinji is doomed?

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:50 pm

I doubt that Eva is going to end with a doomed Shinji. My guess is that while it's going to be hard, Shinji's going to get to a point where he can be happy, or at the very least not sad. Everybody finds love, in the end...

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:00 am

I doubt that Anno will make four films to end with a lesson of unfairness.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Postby Sorrow » Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:30 am

Though it could be interesting, were he to.
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Postby Dataprime » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:46 am

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote: Everybody finds love, in the end...

I see what you did..

I genuinely love how good Evangelion hurts
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:02 pm

Anno didn't made a downer ending when he was at the peak of his depression (he even wrote the script for it, codenamed "LastB"), so I don't see him making one now that he's better, even if he had a minor breakdown after finishing Q, since his wife and old buddy Miyazaki helped him.

Besides making a bleak and hopeless ending after littering the three previous movies with references and symbolism about hope and the efforts to make it real (yes, even in Q) wouldn't make any sense.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby mechashiva » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:16 pm

I understand Eva sort of enabling your emotional and mental states, even though I'm fairly new to the series. (I watched it for the first time a year ago, I think)

Both times I was going through major depressive states. The first time I was on hormone medication for my hair thinning and frequent migraines but the medication ended making me feel listless and depressed. I'd get dropped off at school and just go on the library computers or go into the stairwell where it was nice and warm to read or stare out the window and eat my lunch (one bag of chips, if that) This was around Finals so not coming in class wasn't a good idea but I just felt too blah to bother going and I had to retake my Public Speaking course. The second time was to re-watch the series to take my mind off the rut that is my life and I latched on for dear life in a combination of "A thing that's not related to my life!/This thing IS my life/This is WAY more interesting than anything going on in my life! I just want to talk about it for hours and hours and hours!"

I mean, I'm saying all this like its in hindsight and the bloom of obsession is off the rose at this point but I wouldn't have an account here if Evangelion didn't dovetail so neatly with my state of mind and wanting to analyze and dissect the show. I am detached enough from it to not let it dictate my life or anything but it hooked me so suddenly, I'm having trouble managing it in my day-to-day life without losing focus on the Important Things. (If I had it, I could show how over the past few months its gotten more intense because my Statistics notebook doodles go from elephants to doodles of Shinji and Rei)

(uhhh did I have a point to this post? :bigeyes: )

I guess the point is even though Evangelion has kind of taken over my life, its not the ONLY thing in my life. Evangelion didn't really make me less depressed but it make me realize I'm not as stuck as I think I am. I can't let other people fix my life and make it less hard or keep escaping from it. I have to do it, even if its difficult and terrifying.

Being an adult sucks. :facepalm:
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Postby Ray » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:45 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:(yes, even in Q)


(Muffled laugh)
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Postby Dataprime » Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:36 pm

View Original Postmechashiva wrote:Being an adult sucks.

We try so hard to grow up and be adults, when we finally do grow up
we want to be kids again.

I genuinely love how good Evangelion hurts
- Suicidahlia

She's so cute. Like crazy cute. Like "She's giving me the diabetus" cute. - Gendo'sPapa

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:34 pm

I reckon I muffed being an adult. Kid stuff still comes more naturally to me.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:38 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Besides making a bleak and hopeless ending after littering the three previous movies with references and symbolism about hope and the efforts to make it real (yes, even in Q) wouldn't make any sense.

Also, what would that say about the message Evangelion sends? Working through unimaginable hardship only to end with a smack in the face wouldn't say anything good. I don't remember where I heard or read this, but there's a quote along the lines of, "If you don't have a happy ending, your story just isn't over yet." Sure, I can imagine some situations where this doesn't apply (genocide, victim of extreme violence, etc. etc.) but Anno has the option to give Shinji either ending. I don't see him consigning Shinji to the dustbin. Maybe the ending he gives us will be ambiguous as to Shinji's happiness, but I do believe Shinji will get an ending that will give him the power to move forward.

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Postby Ray » Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:10 pm

Yeah, but just giving a character 'the power to move forward' isn't the same as them actually moving forward. I don't think I need to repeat how I'm tired of all the nebulous stuff and just want an Iron-Clad no strings attached happy ending for Shinji. But given how much Anno just loves making the kid (and by extension his audience) suffer for seemingly pointless reasons, I highly doubt we will get even that. Anno never takes the easy way out in terms of storytelling. For better or worse.

As for 'feeling depressed'? After 3.0 I was in a slump of anger, bitterness, and depression I hadn't experienced since high school, eventually I got it out of my system and moved on. I guess on one hand its a good thing I had enough sympathy and empathy for Shinji that I felt the way I did when 3.0 hit me like a cinematic gut-punch. On the other hand, should I really feel this way about a character who isn't real and I know for a fact not to be real? I mean it can't be healthy.

Shinji's suffered so much, and has literally nothing to show for it. So why should I care? I mean, even Luke Skywalker at the end of Empire had something to show for it.

I can't let other people fix my life and make it less hard or keep escaping from it. I have to do it, even if its difficult and terrifying.


But here is the thing. Shinji did try to 'fix his life' with and without the aid of others and he's failed every time.

I mean, what have we learned after Three films?

That pretty much everything and anything Shinji wants can only result in bad things for everyone including himself. That hope is built up only to be crushed by circumstances beyond his control. That free will is an illusion, and anything Shinji (and by extension the audience self insert ) could want will only result in pain and suffering for others, even if its something like friendship and a tiny bit of acceptance and dignity.

Everything he's done in the first two movies was made irrelevant by circumstances both within and beyond his control. His interactions and the bonds he formed with the other characters, amounted to nothing and have been made all but worthless by a time skip where the others had to put priority on Mankind's survival and not whatever friendship/potential romance they might have had if it hadn't happened. Turning them from kind characters who empathized with him into borderline fascists who can't afford empathy due to the apocalyptic stakes they're playing for. (That is assuming they don't outright hate him for being responsible for them suffering in an apocalyptic world with a lack of closure for over a decade.) The only two people who ever cared for him unconditionally are dead, one of them directly because of his actions. He's either a Pariah for the destruction of the world and millions of deaths at worst, and/or an easily manipulated fool condemned by the setting and other characters to be seen as nothing but a 'selfish brat' who's benign but ignorant actions entail nothing but destruction and serving his fathers evil plan.

I mean seriously. Look at his options:
Stay out of the Robot: The Angels Win, mankind dies off and/or he's labelled a coward for not piloting for the good of the greater whole.

Get in the Robot: Gendo wins, The Eva Awakens, and his friends all but turn their back on him for the part he played in it.

Stay out of the robot: Never be forgiven by said friends and be damned forever as a pariah for the planets (or at least Japans) destruction.

Get in the Robot: Cause another Armageddon, kill the only friend he had left, and destroy what little if any credibility he had left with his old friends.

Over simplification? Definitely. But I don't see any third option in any of these extreme circumstances.

No matter what he does, or what he could have chosen with the options he was given. He always ends up to blame for something.
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People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman


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