Mind Rape and Eva Eyes

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Mind Rape and Eva Eyes

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Postby Gilgamesh » Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:54 pm

This may be a stupid question, but I must ask it. While Asuka's Eva is writhing in agony we notice that when the word "Mother" flashes on the screen the Eva's second set of eyes opens suddenly.

Can anything be inferred from this? I'm thinking that it has something to do with the soul of Asuka's mother and that it is connected with what Kaoru said in episode 24 about the soul of Unit 02 hiding itself. Perhaps Asuka's mother becomes aware of how much her daughter has suffered because of her decision to try to synchronize with the Eva and regretted ever doing that. Or am I looking at it wrong?

By the way, I haven't seen the director's cut of episode 22 yet and I won't until all of the Platinum Collection is released next year, so if anything in there answers my question, then I just haven't seen it.

*Sigh* I remember reading this really great interpretation of Asuka's mind rape scene on another anime forum and at the time I didn't really remember everything that happened in Eva so I really wanted to see it again to understand it better. So I borrowed a bootleg copy of it from a friend (relax, don't worry, I'm buying the Platinum Collection as it comes out, Anno will get his money) and found the symbolic scenes showing the destruction of Asuka's defense mechanisms to be missing. At first I thought the guy who made that post must have been crazy or something but now I realize that it was in the Director's Cut.

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Postby Dark FireStar » Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:06 pm

you make a good point on how the "soul" of her mother hiding herself thats a gooood point.
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Postby Shin-seiki » Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:19 pm

I think it's fair to say that the Mind Rape was just as traumatic an experience for Kyouko-sama as it was for Asuka; both are shell-shocked afterwards, and Kyouko reacts by withdrawing deep within herself.
In #25', it Kyouko that 'snaps out of it' first, and reaches out to Asuka...

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Postby Asuka Langley » Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:37 am

Shin-seiki wrote:I think it's fair to say that the Mind Rape was just as traumatic an experience for Kyouko-sama as it was for Asuka; both are shell-shocked afterwards, and Kyouko reacts by withdrawing deep within herself.
In #25', it Kyouko that 'snaps out of it' first, and reaches out to Asuka...

Nice explanation.
I was just going to suggest something like that, myself.
The Eva and the Pilot are both connected, so whatever happens to one, happens to the other.

I suppose there must have been, at least, something happening to Kyoko.
We'll see whachu' got.

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Postby Asterix » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:59 pm

Well if they're connected, maybe the soul inside the eva can see the pilots thoughts and stuff? Cause if Kyoko is "seeing" what Asuka is "seeing", then for the first time (presumably) Kyoko would be seeing what her going loopy after the activation experiment did to Asuka. Since she was in the braindead state (I guess soulless, when it comes down to it), she probably would have never had an understanding of what her losing it did to Asuka mentally. If she's now seeing/understanding Asuka's reaction to it all for the first time, through Asuka's memories, perhaps she, as the eva's soul, was freaked out enough to send her into hiding..
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Postby advent_child » Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:18 pm

Asuka Langley wrote:The Eva and the Pilot are both connected, so whatever happens to one, happens to the other.

I suppose there must have been, at least, something happening to Kyoko.

Yeah i agree with you Asuka...this sounds to be a very good thought..

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Postby Asuka Langley » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:41 pm

Well, it could be that.
Or it could simply be the fact that her mother was the most painful subject for her to recall.
Even words that had to do with maternity flashed on the screen as well.

But since she was still connected with her Eva at the time that she saw the "mother" issue, it sent her over the edge, making her Eva simply do what she was doing.

Asuka was mentally struggling, so her control over Unit-02 wasn't exactly proper.
It was more or less instinctual to try and relieve the pain. (writhing, grabbing her head, etc.)
We'll see whachu' got.

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Postby the_seventh_child » Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:09 am

Asuka Langley wrote:Well, it could be that.
Or it could simply be the fact that her mother was the most painful subject for her to recall.
Even words that had to do with maternity flashed on the screen as well.

But since she was still connected with her Eva at the time that she saw the "mother" issue, it sent her over the edge, making her Eva simply do what she was doing.

Asuka was mentally struggling, so her control over Unit-02 wasn't exactly proper.
It was more or less instinctual to try and relieve the pain. (writhing, grabbing her head, etc.)

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Postby Dan » Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:37 am

What I am about to bring up is unrelated, but I feel a movement needs to be made.

In the Evangelion discussion community, please stop using the term "mind rape" when reffering to the event in episode 22 when Arael makes contact with Asuka. There are a number of reasons I feel that this is important, and would like to tackle these with plasuable objections.

This idea to change the use of the term "Mind Rape" originally came to me at a convention, when I was with someone ignorant of Evangelion whp listened to a discussion about episode 22, and was almost made physically sick at the light use of the word "rape". This person has worked in victim's assistance for over a decade now, and has met many people who have actually been raped, including the unfortunately famous "central park jogger". I took a moment to calm her from addressing the issue publicly, which I now actually regret, because it is not only inaccurate, but wrong and disgusting to refer to what happens in episode 22 as rape.

Rape is a horrible, horrible thing. Seriously, I dont care how much I sound like your mother/school counselor/local narc or prude, but I don't feel that it is something that can be taken lightly by applying it to fiction in this way. This is making it easily accessable and easier to use, without completely understanding its meaning. I would say it is a good guess to assume that none or only a few of the people online using the term "mind rape" in Evangelion discussion have ever actually been raped. Therefore, there is very little chance that we can even begin to imagine what the experience is like, and then feel comfortable to use it in online chat. Additionally, with the majority of people discussing Evangelion comprising an age range of 12-20, many of these people refering to rape have yet to fully sexually mature, let alone emotionally.

So, you feel that the scenes in this episode are truly harsh and deserve to be called "rape"? Well, then lets examine what happens. Arael amazingly contacts Asuka's unconscious, bringing to consciousness upsetting memories about her past, in a way of making the character cringe and flail in upsetment, leaving her irritable and confused. During cases of rape, contrary to what happens in Evangelion, an alarming amount of victims will exhibit a state of emotional numbness. They are actually able to and will readily recount the event to the last explicit detail without wavering. They do not act out, and seldom attempt to pursue punishment for the rapist. So for you who feel "rape" is an appropriate word, bear in mind that it 1) doesn't accurately describe what happens physically, and 2) doesn't accurately describe what happens emotionally in the episode. So the only connection attempting to be made is the level of harshness, which apparently doesn't even equate, either.

The series does not approach this even calling it "rape", ever. That is not the intentional message of the scene, which is in actuality probably just an exaggerated example of traditional Japanese honorable death issues. So then what should you call it? Well, Asuka's "contact" with arael is what I always use, or you could refer to Asuka's AT Field being attacked.

Please understand that this is not an attack on anyone posting in this forum or using "rape" here. I understand that it is common and easy now, but that is what I would like people to make a conscious effort against. So I ask that you cease the use of "rape" in discussions about episdoe 22, because it is unnecessarily disrespectful to everyone, aside from being technically absurd in reference to the series. Please stop and encourage others to stop this practice, and hopefully it will fade.

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Postby Shin-seiki » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:38 am

Maybe people call it that because that's what it's called in the show:
Image

(that is, of course, ADV's translation; I don't think that is what she actually says in Japanese)

Just because she isn't actually physically raped, tho, doesn't mean that word isn't metaphorically appropriate to what happens to her. Note how EVA-02 is physically acting out Asuka's mental anguish:
Image

One could refer to the Angel's "mental attack", I suppose, but it doesn't really have the same effective connotation as "rape". Considering that the experience puts Asuka into a psychological tailspin that eventually leads to attempted suicide, I don't think that it is too strong a word...

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Postby Asuka Langley » Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:03 am

I'm going to have to agree with Shin-Seiki, I'm afraid.

Actually, Asuka even said something about "rape" and 'being dirtied' in the Japanese version.

I, personally, don't think that it could really be referred to or described by anything else, because it really was an invasion upon her.

Although, I will agree on what you are saying about rape in general. It is a horrible thing, it is an inexcusable thing.
However, it did happen (to a certain degree) to Asuka.

"Rape" is not solely defined as 'an unwanted sexual act'.
It can also be defined as 'abusive' or 'improper' treatment. A violation.
And whether or not it was physical, shouldn't matter in the latter definitions case.
She was violated, and it was simply done mentally.

"Mind rape" is the term that really does describe the, for lack of better words, 'trauma' that she was put through during that particular attack.
It was something horrible, and it was something deeply disturbing for her.

I'm not suggesting that I do not respect your opinion, or your request. I'm simply saying, that just because it wasn't physical, doesn't mean there was no violation.
We'll see whachu' got.

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Postby Dan » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:09 am

I hate to say this, but please read my post entirely, the physical aspect of rape is hardly what I am suggesting is inadequate in representation.

I don't think that is what she actually says in Japanese

No, she doesn't. I'm curious of what version this is in, because it hasn't been in all ADV releases, and I hope it isn't in platinum


Just because she isn't actually physically raped, tho, doesn't mean that word isn't metaphorically appropriate to what happens to her.


I tried to explain how it wouldn't be metaphorically appropriate, but maybe that wasn't sufficient for you.


One could refer to the Angel's "mental attack", I suppose, but it doesn't really have the same effective connotation as "rape".


That's exactly my point, only from a different perspective. The connotation of "rape" is really on a different plane that what happens to Asuka, so it is not only inappropriate, but inaccurate.

Actually, Asuka even said something about "rape" and 'being dirtied' in the Japanese version.

You're right, she actually says something along the lines of being polluted

I, personally, don't think that it could really be referred to or described by anything else, because it really was an invasion upon her.

It can also be defined as 'abusive' or 'improper' treatment. A violation.

She was violated, and it was simply done mentally.


You took the words right out of my mouth. And in doing so presented us with some synonyms for "rape", all that would be a good substitution for describing ep 22.

"Mind rape" is the term that really does describe the, for lack of better words, 'trauma' that she was put through during that particular attack.

It's just easy. If it didnt roll right off you your tounge so easily, it wouldn't. It's supported it for effect and "accuracy", but really allowed for ease. Choose what you will, I just wanted it to be said.

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Postby Asuka Langley » Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:01 pm

Dan wrote:II, personally, don't think that it could really be referred to or described by anything else, because it really was an invasion upon her.

It can also be defined as 'abusive' or 'improper' treatment. A violation.

She was violated, and it was simply done mentally.


You took the words right out of my mouth. And in doing so presented us with some synonyms for "rape", all that would be a good substitution for describing ep 22.

It's true, that those words would be a fine substitute description. However, when people hear those types of words being used to describe a situation, they often tend to associate them with the word "rape" anyways, since they are respective synonyms.

"Mind rape" is the term that really does describe the, for lack of better words, 'trauma' that she was put through during that particular attack.

It's just easy. If it didnt roll right off you your tounge so easily, it wouldn't. It's supported it for effect and "accuracy", but really allowed for ease. Choose what you will, I just wanted it to be said.

Believe it or not, that term is not an easy subject for me to bring up. I'm not fond of the words "Mind rape/d". In fact, I rarely use the term for the fact that it makes me uncomfortable.

You're right about it being the 'easiest', but it's also the most descriptive and easiest to identify.

Actually, a good example of this just occured yesterday while I was discussing the episodes around this point.

I said the words; "When Asuka was mentally attacked." And the person I was talking to said; "Pardon me? I don't remember that."
However, when I changed the terms to "The 'mind-rape' episode?" The person knew immediately what I was referring to.

Since it is such a touchy subject, had it been made any worse, it would have been far too much to witness.

In this case, you'd have to be able to identify with the character and imagine what that sort of experience would have been like.

Anyways, I'm still glad that you brought that up. It was a good point to be made.
We'll see whachu' got.

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Postby Dave » Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:25 pm

It's just a word, and it happens to describe this scene perfectly. I am not going to stop using it because a few people might be offended.
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Postby advent_child » Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:41 pm

The word rape is used only metaphorically....i don't think there's a problem with this....

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Postby aranami » Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:58 pm

Rape - n 1. The crime of forcing another person to submit ot sexual intercourse. 2. the acto of seizing and carring off by force: ABDUCTION. 3. abusive or improper treatment: VIOLATION

v 1. To force (another person) to submit to sexual intercourse. 2. To seize and carry off by force. 3. To pillage or plunder.
webster's 2
When people say "Mind Rape" they are refering to the 3rd definition. It has nothing to do with the first.
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Postby Esion » Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:04 pm

Similar to the use of rape in the term raping the land. Mistreatment and ravaging.
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Postby the_seventh_child » Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:46 pm

advent_child wrote:The word rape is used only metaphorically....i don't think there's a problem with this....

I don't see a problem with this either..
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Postby Gilgamesh » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:23 pm

Dan wrote:What I am about to bring up is unrelated, but I feel a movement needs to be made.

In the Evangelion discussion community, please stop using the term "mind rape" when reffering to the event in episode 22 when Arael makes contact with Asuka. There are a number of reasons I feel that this is important, and would like to tackle these with plasuable objections.

This idea to change the use of the term "Mind Rape" originally came to me at a convention, when I was with someone ignorant of Evangelion whp listened to a discussion about episode 22, and was almost made physically sick at the light use of the word "rape". This person has worked in victim's assistance for over a decade now, and has met many people who have actually been raped, including the unfortunately famous "central park jogger". I took a moment to calm her from addressing the issue publicly, which I now actually regret, because it is not only inaccurate, but wrong and disgusting to refer to what happens in episode 22 as rape.

Rape is a horrible, horrible thing. Seriously, I dont care how much I sound like your mother/school counselor/local narc or prude, but I don't feel that it is something that can be taken lightly by applying it to fiction in this way. This is making it easily accessable and easier to use, without completely understanding its meaning. I would say it is a good guess to assume that none or only a few of the people online using the term "mind rape" in Evangelion discussion have ever actually been raped. Therefore, there is very little chance that we can even begin to imagine what the experience is like, and then feel comfortable to use it in online chat. Additionally, with the majority of people discussing Evangelion comprising an age range of 12-20, many of these people refering to rape have yet to fully sexually mature, let alone emotionally.

So, you feel that the scenes in this episode are truly harsh and deserve to be called "rape"? Well, then lets examine what happens. Arael amazingly contacts Asuka's unconscious, bringing to consciousness upsetting memories about her past, in a way of making the character cringe and flail in upsetment, leaving her irritable and confused. During cases of rape, contrary to what happens in Evangelion, an alarming amount of victims will exhibit a state of emotional numbness. They are actually able to and will readily recount the event to the last explicit detail without wavering. They do not act out, and seldom attempt to pursue punishment for the rapist. So for you who feel "rape" is an appropriate word, bear in mind that it 1) doesn't accurately describe what happens physically, and 2) doesn't accurately describe what happens emotionally in the episode. So the only connection attempting to be made is the level of harshness, which apparently doesn't even equate, either.

The series does not approach this even calling it "rape", ever. That is not the intentional message of the scene, which is in actuality probably just an exaggerated example of traditional Japanese honorable death issues. So then what should you call it? Well, Asuka's "contact" with arael is what I always use, or you could refer to Asuka's AT Field being attacked.

Please understand that this is not an attack on anyone posting in this forum or using "rape" here. I understand that it is common and easy now, but that is what I would like people to make a conscious effort against. So I ask that you cease the use of "rape" in discussions about episdoe 22, because it is unnecessarily disrespectful to everyone, aside from being technically absurd in reference to the series. Please stop and encourage others to stop this practice, and hopefully it will fade.


Actually, my own mother was raped about a year ago and I will still persist in calling what happens to Asuka in episode 22 "mind rape." In fact that is what I called it in the subject of this topic.


Because, as others have pointed out, it fits the scene very well.

I don't think I'm being disrespectful to my mother at all.

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Postby Phaze » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:03 pm

Watch the scene closely, the subtext clearly suggested tha angel's attack on Asuka was a form of rape. I shouldn't even need to describe it, just watch what was happening.
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