Anno vs. Otaku (critcism, self-reflection, etc)

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Postby JoeD80 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:22 pm

I think it's more of a author's personality traits are spread through multiple characters kind of thing. It's pretty clear in the proposal that Shinji would be the focal character of the series. Who would force characters on Anno? It was his studio and his show.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:01 pm

There's definitely more of the tantalizing hints of the quasi-Illuminist goings on behind the scenes in the anime compared with the manga.

As to the difference in tone between the TV and and EoE -- a lot of that can be attributed to the ups and downs in Anno's struggles with depression over the period; it is reasonable to characterize EoTV as the Gendo Good End, in contrast with EoE's Shinji Bad End.
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Postby Chuckman » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:38 pm

Gendo is partly the embodiment of the creative struggle. One of his first scenes is arguing with a bunch of old men who won't give him a sufficient budget to carry out the herculean task they've assigned him. The way they're constantly second guessing him and the struggle for control over Instrumentality reads like a metaphor for working as an anime director (or any kind of film/television director really). If you want to go super-meta, Shinji is forced on Anno and Gendo at the same time.

Fuyutsuki is the producer and Ritsuko is the daughter of an old star who's already past her prime but angling for the lead role she never got, hoping for a bigger role in the production and then trying to torpedo it by fucking with the young leads and trying to sabotage the production.

In other words, if they ever make LAEM, Ritsuko needs to be played by Lindsay Lohan.
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Postby Guy Nacks » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:47 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:In other words, if they ever make LAEM, Ritsuko needs to be played by Lindsay Lohan.


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Postby Ispellnogood » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:16 pm

I always thought Gendo=Director in the show, Seele would most likely be the producers.

It would be very hypocritical if anno sees himself as Gendo, and then say don't live through anime characters. To me Gendo reeks of wish fufilment type of character, And I know anno likes the archtype. Gendo pretty much is the same as Captain Nemo from nadia, and he had two chicks fighting over him in a cliche anime way.

The psyche theory is something I think sounds more like fodder someone would say to seem artistic.
You just don't do what Anno does to Shinji, If the character is a part of psyche, It's too over the top.
It's more like anno wanted Shinji to be hated as a character.

I've heard that Gendo is more like a warning to what Shinji could become, but that would mean theres something negative said about the guy in eva, something that tells the veiwers that this guy is a bad thing to become. I've really yet to see that all from anno.

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Postby IronEvangelion » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:28 pm

'Hero' is definitely not a word I would ever associate with Gendo. When he destroys the world, it is most certainly not what everybody wanted. The rank and file of NERV died trying to save humanity, as was the stated goal of the organization. He used them, then stabbed them in the back. He was also most definitely not forced to initiate third impact. It was stated clearly in the show that he planned to hijack third impact for his own ends ever since Yui died. What he did was pre-meditated.

And Nemo has very little in common with Gendo. Yes, Nemo did unleash a catastrophe that destroyed his homeland, but he did it to save humanity as a whole from Gargoyle's wrath instead of sacrificing the world for purely selfish reasons like Gendo tried to do. Everything Nemo does is motivated by a desire to protect human life, and if he seems cold, it's because he has to be that way in order to carry out his mission of saving the world from Gargoyle.
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Postby Ispellnogood » Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:27 am

Tragic Hero' would be a better word perhaps. I think Anno really wants veiwers to relate and route for Gendo, as he does. I can recall nothing that in the show or EoE that points the finger at Gendo and says what you're doing is wrong, something that says he's selfish, or something that states he doing bad things. A Misunderstood, Stoic Tragic Hero, who's whiny and sexually confused otaku son doesn't understand him, is what I think anno was going for (which makes you hate gendo, if you route for the character Shinji). EoeTv, Gendo initiates instrumentality and it is definitly is the world everybody was wishing for. When Misato shows her ire at it, by addressing Ritsuko(for some reason), Ritsuko states "and yet that is exactly what you were wishing for. There's even a "thank you to my father" in there near the end. It's never as actually being a bad thing, Gendo has nothing to answer for in the show. I know it's said that anno was depressed during eva, and they think Shinji the represents that depression. But I think Shinji's failings are too over the top, for me to beleive that Anno gives a damn about character, other than some guy that's there to make Gendo look better. I've heard anno say "I actually relate more to Gendo than Shinji" and I think depressed Anno fits quite perfectly with Gendo's character, and it also explains Gendo in EoE.

In EoE the movie, Gendo seems to had a change of heart, in the seele conference he's trying to convince them to let humanity live, and not go through with seeles third impact. That's the only way I can see that scene, unless you over convolute the plot and mold it to something else. He actually seemed to be fighting seele to protect humanity, well by fighting I mean stoicly, sitting on his chair, but that certainly is more admirable then what Shinji was doing. It's only when Nervs defeat is assured does he stand up to initiate his version of third impact. It like saying that he tryied but Nervs defeat is forcing him to do the thing he's been bent on from the start.

People have said that Gendo gets his in EoE, but what he gets is a stoic and dignified death scene, because he closed off his heart, that's all Gendo answers for EoE. I'm sure the character Shinji would've begged and begged for that after seeing what he gets in EoE. I actually don't think Shinji ever had anything to do with Seele plans to start third impact. I think Shinji doing it in Eoe was just a quick way for Anno to take the blame and responsibilty off Gendo from the show and place it on Shinji, or as the manga says leave him with the knife in his hands.

I actually think Anno would've had gendo have a love scene with Rei, I think he hasn't yet, not because it's inappropriate ( I mean Shinji has fapped over a comotose Asuka). But because people are disgusted by pedos, even more than whiny Otaku fappers. Although in Rebuild all jailbait is legal, Rei is reduced to just a clone of Yui, and Gendo is suspiciously youthful looking for and old old man, so who knows.

I actually don't know the backstory for Captain Nemo, I stopped watching Nadia after seeing a character who pretty much is gendo, have a chick state that she's going to make him 'Her man' after meeting with him. Now that you told me his story, to me it strengthens what I was saying, and the kind of character anno favours and relates to.

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Postby Devas » Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:27 pm

In the wiki we have this quote of Anno:

Takekuma: There are people who have argued that Nerv is [a representation of] Studio Ghibli (laughing), but in truth Nerv is [a representation of] Gainax.

Anno: That's so. It's what you would call an amateur group.
Takekuma: You are projected into every one of the characters in your work, but you were in Gendo's position, right? The staff had to follow you anyway, even though [they] didn't know what [you were] thinking.

Anno: I'm in that position as far as my standing is concerned. As to whether I'm projecting that much [into him], I don't really think so. But he is certainly my shadow.

Takekuma: Speaking in terms of the drama, there is this enmity between parent and child, [but] the [actual] struggle [between them] remains unrealized.

Anno: Right. It's vague. I was saving it until the final episode, thinking I would do it then.
Oizumi: What I thought was intersting is that at the outset you kill all of the mothers. Was that a projection of something like your [own] maternal image?

Anno: Yeah.

Takekuma: For me, it was different. For me, it was my father who wasn't there. It's unusual, I think, [for people of] my generation to be confronting their fathers.

Anno: I'm not sure that it's a real father [that Gendo represents]. Well, not a father in the sense of a parent with a blood relation to his child, but more, I think, [in the sense of being] a representative of society or the system. That's why he has that expression.

Takekuma: So, he's kind of amorphous.

Anno: The angels are the same. I made them appear amorphous in that way because, for me, society is unclear, the enemy is unclear.

Takekuma: Gendo is [a representation of] the boundries or the pressure of society itself.

Anno: That might be it. Perhaps Gendo is [a representation of] society itself.


That gives us a little idea of what he was thinking when he made Gendo.

For me, there are no heroes in Evangelion. Making a world where everyone is somehow broken, i highly doubt there would be any heroes for Anno. That incluides Gendo.

In fact, looking at the final dialogue of Gendo, when he confess his true feelings. When he faces himself and realizes what was wrong, which leads to him being asking for forgiveness at the end. I believe we can assure Gendo would not think of himself as a Hero.

And so, i really believe that one of the things the Anime show us is there are no heroes.

For people outside, we can search for some "heroic" actions. But they aren't true heroes. Just common people.

Maybe for Anno, everyone is a little bit like a hero, struggling with themselves, with the outside and fighting their own battles.[/quote]

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:29 pm

That's not true at all. Shinji is a very heroic character.
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:33 am

Not quite; I see Shinji as a hero in fact, but not heroic in manner.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:57 am

^
I think it depends on what definition of hero you follow: the classical or the modern one?
Shinji is certainly a classical Hero, the central protagonist who goes through big and epics ordeals, independently of their morality (some classical Greek heroes were quite the nasty people) although Shinji does try to do the right thing, at least until he reaches his breaking point in EoE.

Now for the modern definition of a hero, someone doing heroic acts and with an incorruptible moral compass, an unbreakable courage and whose qualities far surpass his few flaws... sure he doesn't follow that definition one bit, as he's a deeply flawed character (which sometimes even outweigh his qualities) and can have moments of selfishness and cowardice.


View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:Tragic Hero' would be a better word perhaps. I think Anno really wants veiwers to relate and route for Gendo, as he does. I can recall nothing that in the show or EoE that points the finger at Gendo and says what you're doing is wrong, something that says he's selfish, or something that states he doing bad things.

Did you missed the scene in EoE where Rei tell him to fuck off before cutting off his hand and go her way and later when Kaworu appeared to chew on him on how he missed the happiness he could had have with his son to pursuit a lost happiness from the past and how in the end Yui bites him in half?
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:38 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Not quite; I see Shinji as a hero in fact, but not heroic in manner.


No. Shinji repeatedly rises to the occasion, overcomes his own doubts and fears and puts others ahead of himself to the point of self harm. The situation overwhelms him.

Victory does not define a hero. Intent does. He breaks at the end, but after inhuman, overwhelming, borderline comedic suffering.
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:40 am

We're actually agreeing, you know. I just felt it should be expressed a little differently.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:45 am

Ah, okeydokey. I'm used to seeing the opposite argument so much I tend to jump the gun a little in defending him.
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Postby TheAdmiral » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:31 am

I always saw Gendo as more of a facilitator than either a hero or outright villain. Long before I had stumbled onto the bounty of info that we now have on the EVA characters, I saw Gendo as a shadowy reflection of Shinji, and that's precisely what was later confirmed.

While not evil, his unresolved emotional issues have made him bitter and highly manipulative. He manipulates his way to becoming the executor of the will of the secret society (Seele), thinking that he will eventually hijack (betray) their plan to further his own, but a life of betrayal begets betrayal and his comes at the hands of Rei--his own pawn. If you think about it, his end was the rather fitting reflection of the way he chose to live his life... Good life lesson to be taken from that. ;)

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Postby Ispellnogood » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:09 pm

Gendo representing society is absurd.

I heard that Gendo was based on some Italian story where a guy whos wife dies, falls in love with some dancer girl who looks like her. I see that in the show when ever Rei has flashes of Gendo fly before her eyes, even whenshe sacrifices for Shinji, the last thing she sees is Gendo. I beleive there would of been a sex scene too, only it would've demonised Gendo as a pedo. I think Anno just incorperated the stoic character traits that he seems to favour into Gendo. The show does have a 'Why don't you see this from Gendo's POV feel to it', only people tend to go for the main characters POV . And in EoeTV I really, really think Gendo represents Anime Director(Anno) giving these different aspects of Otaku (Shinji, Misato, Asuka and Rei), the world they've been wishing for.

I route for the character Shinji, I found him to be touching. But after a while it gets too much, and I had to ask myself, whether the director really even wanted people to route for Shinji, or if he wanted people to be frustrated, disgusted and alienated byt the character.

In EoE well put it this way. If Eoe the movie were a fanfic story, I would imagine a lot of reveiws would say "We get it, you hate Shinji and like Gendo", "You really don't like Shinji do you", "Quit Shinji bashing, and Gendo was the one who started third impact, so why is he preaching about how death creates nothing?, watch the show retard".


Rei telling Gendo to fuck off and Kaworu chewing him out are much much harsher ways saying what happened.

One of the versions had Rei actually thanking Gendo for his pure heart, and then her going off to Shinji( who anno describes as a guy who faps over girls, because he's too scared to Rape them) and letting him end the world.

Gendo's scenes don't sound like chewing out they sound like they're meant to be tragic.
If you were to chew out Gendo with the same level as Shinji, then it would be.
"You fifty year old manchild, so your mother/wife isn't around anymore to suckle you, and pamper away your emo worldveiw, get over it. If you had just pulled your filthy pedo peepee out of that blow-up doll, grown up and showed some fatherly concern for your child. Then maybe all this wouldn't of happened."

People say that eva was meant to wake otaku out of their anime dreamworlds. But if you're an otaku who projects himself on the older stoic characters in anime, then eva is a really nice for you to live in. Your tall, badass and stoic, you have chicks swooning over how nobody understands you. You hook up with multiple chicks and Rei Ayanami (A major Otaku Pinup girl) has the hots for you.

It amazing me that not many people here have looked at gendo(Uberpimp) and gone "Heeey, wait a minute"

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Postby Ispellnogood » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:08 am

If you give Kaworu breast and change his sex, s/he becomes awfully similar to those anime cliche chicks. You Know the ones, the ones that show an unusual and unrealistic interest in the guy characters. And with very little time and effort on the guys part, say "I love you". The only difference being that Kaworus an angel and betrays Shinji's trust in him. Really when you make Kaworu a girl he does fit the bill for that kind of character.

In Eoe when Kaworu and Rei say that they're the words "I love you" I think that they're representing those anime characters. The fact that Rei's there instead of just Kaworu, was because Anno wanted to Rip on all the shipping fanboys/girls in EoE.

I actually don't see the whole Homoeroticism thing of Kaworu to be "Anno's Homosexual side" or any 'Brokeback Mountain" artsy fartsy shit. I beleive Anno's always considered Shinji as a negative character, who he wanted very little to do with. I think he might of just gone "Make Kaworu a pretty guy, that would suit a little fag like Shinji just fine". As a cheap way to rip on Shinji and alienate him from veiwers.

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Postby Guy Nacks » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:47 pm

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:I beleive Anno's always considered Shinji as a negative character, who he wanted very little to do with.


Then why make him the main character of his own show?

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:I think he might of just gone "Make Kaworu a pretty guy, that would suit a little fag like Shinji just fine". As a cheap way to rip on Shinji and alienate him from veiwers.


First of all, Shinji is clearly not homosexual. There are far too many instances within the series to disprove this (him getting flustered and embarrassed when he sees Rei naked, him getting a boner from thinking about whatever dirty things Misato and Asuka might have been implying during their teasing in the hot springs, Shinji moving to kiss Asuka in her sleep, Shinji masturbating over Asuka and her later comments during Instrumentality that imply it's not the first time he's done that, etc.)

That is not to say that he's not bisexual, however. Personally, and I think what Anno was going for was to portray Shinji in such a way that he would welcome a relationship from anyone who offered him enough love and affection like Kaworu does, because he so desires it and is so lacking in receiving it.

I'm not even gonna go into what what you were implying when you said Anno wanted to make Shinji gay to purposely degrade him and alienate his viewer base because that's just ridiculous.
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And so we arrive at demagogy. - Hideaki Anno, 1996

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:55 pm

View Original PostGuy Nacks wrote:Personally, and I think what Anno was going for was to portray Shinji in such a way that he would welcome a relationship from anyone who offered him enough love and affection like Kaworu does, because he so desires it and is so lacking in receiving it.


Yep. It doesn't matter if it was somebody he already knew, or a new person like Kaworu. Shinji needed love and affection from somebody, anybody (e.g. EoE Asuka's "Anybody will do for you!"), but that's not to say he didn't have genuine but complicated feelings for various cast members (e.g. Asuka, Kaworu, Rei).
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:55 pm

View Original PostIspellnogood wrote:If you give Kaworu breast and change his sex
But Kaworu's a girl, didn't you know? :devil:

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I actually don't see the whole Homoeroticism thing of Kaworu to be "Anno's Homosexual side" or any 'Brokeback Mountain" artsy fartsy shit.
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