Misato and her change of heart between 2.22 and 3.33

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:50 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:What, you think that everything he got through in Q is still not enough? :lol:

Q broke him, but didn't provide the therapy required for cure. I suspect that the therapy that I gave him with Sakura will have been much kinder than the tough love that Anno is likely to have in mind.
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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:01 pm

^
Can't he have some respite, I mean again Instrumentality to help him to cure? Can't he have some genuine love that for once don't end in tragedy? (Yui, Rei, now Kaworu...)
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Postby Stillborn » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:19 pm

It's Shinji. Apparently he needs to accept that the shit is a sign of love... :facepalm:

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Postby Guy Nacks » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:39 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:He didn't reached "fap to comatose gir" level yet, so no. He can be broken some more :tongue:


He's FAR worse off at the end of Q then he was at the corresponding point in NGE for the unavoidable fact that he's blamed for the deaths of MILLIONS of people and the destruction of the world.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:40 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:There's nothing else to broke, only to recover, and breaking him again after that while there's still one movie left is really less than likely.

I'm in agreement with this. Shinji doesn't stand to lose much more of his psyche; at this point, the death of another character might make him retreat a little more, but it wouldn't send him down into a hitherto unknown level of despair.

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:23 am

You're taking my remark out of proportion. Anno will surely give us a satisfactory conclusion in which Shinji will learn how to value himself and see his true worth in the world. But the way he gets there will involve more people saying harsh truths to his face than I've represented. Really, I've only shown Asuka being like that with him, and she was kept away until he was on the path to recovery.

Misato (to return to the subject) was trying to deal with her own concerns about truth and blame; she never lost sight of Shinji as a person, but her responsibilities forced her to put other things first - though I picture her regretting how that played out. But even so, it's the sort of regret that sees no alternative to the way she handled it, though she acknowledges the hurt it produced.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:21 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:You're taking my remark out of proportion. Anno will surely give us a satisfactory conclusion in which Shinji will learn how to value himself and see his true worth in the world. But the way he gets there will involve more people saying harsh truths to his face than I've represented. Really, I've only shown Asuka being like that with him, and she was kept away until he was on the path to recovery.

Well, truth be told currently he's so broken that anyone can tell him any harsh truth (or plain harsh words) and he won't react or even register them.
So fatally he needs to first get out of his funk and then slightly out of the mindset that he's a monster that deserves one thousand times to burn in the fires of Hell, or else he'll only take at face value what everything will say to him to fuel his self-hatred.

Now as to who and how many times he'll get told harsh truths, that's only my opinion ofc, but I think that only two times by two different people will be enough: Asuka for sure, there's just no way she'll pass the opportunity to empty her emotional bag and tell him a few well chosen home truths, probably about how he tends to jump to conclusions and actions without thinking of the potential ramifications and consequences (hello Bardiel), and someone else could probably talk to him about trust and how to try to determine in who and what you can put your trust, that it's one of life's big difficulties but still a necessity, as stopping to trust into anything and anyone will just make you alone and miserable, and like Gendo. Here I can really see Kaji take that role, Sakura and Mari doesn't know Shinji since long enough to be pertinent, and with Misato I fear that it will fall flat, since everything she did while he was in the Wunder just screamed at him "get the fuck out of here ASAP". (even if it was more the fault of the circumstances than anything else)

But more would be overkill and really hammering past indigestion: having harsh truths and lecturing coming from Asuka, then Sakura, then Mari, then Kaji, then Misato... yeah, Shinji has big flaws and issues, we got it, thank you, no need to rehash it ad nauseam, I know that technically he's a kid compared to the rest of the WILLE cast, but no need to have said whole falling on him with reprimands, or else he'll look like too much like a little kid being scolded and that risks to undermine his character development, he's supposed to grow up and mature from this journey, not to be the hopeless kiddo mascot of the group that get scolded by the rest of the cast and then forget about because what else can do, he's still a kid? (Especially since growing-up ASAP seems to be the norm in this new world.)


In fact (to get back on topic too), I feel that any harsh truths told by Misato will potentially fall flat:
- "you should stop doing what you want and act according to other's wishes and needs" : she's the one that told him to fight for his own reasons and not because other people tell him to do it, and from his point of view that was a few weeks ago.

- "you jump to conclusions to hastily and don't think about the consequences" : she pointed an armed detonator at his face and told him that Rei doesn't exist anymore even when Rei is just next to them, it's impossible to make any conclusion other than "she's lying to me, better get the hell out ASAP", or to imagine that the guy the whole planet presented as the commander of the organization tasked to save the world is in fact evil. Again a better example of him jumping to conclusions and not thinking about consequences (or listening to people) is when he interacted with Asuka, both during Bardiel's fight and in the fight in Lilith's Chamber, that's why I think she's the best placed to address this flaw of him.

- "deep down you don't trust anyone, that's why you can't have faith to anyone and end manipulated by everyone": see again previous point, also the fact that Ritsuko explicitly stated that they don't trust him at all, and trust is a two way street.

That's why I think that the route you've taken in your fic Paul is the best one: whatever her heart feels toward Shinji, first let him get better and have his harsh truths told to him and have the time to reflect over them, then have Misato and him meet again and talk, as any meeting previous that will only be a blaming game where both parties have their fault.
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Postby Ray » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:18 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:
In fact (to get back on topic too), I feel that any harsh truths told by Misato will potentially fall flat:

- "you should stop doing what you want and act according to other's wishes and needs" : she's the one that told him to fight for his own reasons and not because other people tell him to do it, and from his point of view that was a few weeks ago.


Well that was back when she was young, naive and idealistic. Back before all this crap happened and Shinji had a part to play in all but ending the world. Adults have to live in the real world and learn to listen to others, be it a boss or a person in authority.

'Getting what you want' is considered selfish and childish according to Anno isn't it? I mean the last two times Shinji got 'what he wanted (or thought he wanted)' it destroyed the Geo front and was the first step in corifying Japan and possibly the planet, and gave his monster father exactly what he needs to win the war.

If getting 'what you want' entails consequences like that I'd start being less selfish and never question orders.

Whatever her heart feels toward Shinji, first let him get better and have his harsh truths told to him and have the time to reflect over them, then have Misato and him meet again and talk, as any meeting previous that will only be a blaming game where both parties have their fault.


Rewriting something I read in a response to one of my earliest posts. It pains me to say this, but at this point Shinji really has noone to blame but Himself and Gendo. I doubt he'd blame Misato at all. Especially if its revealed he really is responsible for the world, (or at least Japan) being core material. Misato on the other hand, has every right to blame him for it was his actions that caused Fourth Impact. Not Misato's harsh and pragmatic methods.

Furthermore, after having nothing but Military harshness for a decade and a half, being denied any semblence of a normal life because of Shinji's actions, and with him being a hated memory at worst and a sensitive subject at best for a over a decade and a half. Maybe distancing herself from Shinji indefinitely would be the best option. Hasn't the kid suffered enough at the hands of the people who were formerly his friends?

I don't want to see him hurt anymore, least of all at the hands and words of the only woman who ever unconditionally supported in him. Can she ever unconditionally support and trust him again, after making her relive her worst nightmare twice?
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Postby wiser3754 » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:34 pm

From my perspective, Anno has crafted Misato in Q to a character we have yet to see in motion or according to Misato's experience with in her youth. That character would her father, Misato now at her father's age now personifies this character and at the same time, Anno addresses an absent character from NGE and fixes it in Q, just like the ADAM.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:14 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:From my perspective, Anno has crafted Misato in Q to a character we have yet to see in motion or according to Misato's experience with in her youth.

Agree, we didn't see enough of her yet to have a correct perception of where her heart is situated. Sure we know that she's colder than before in her duties (indirectly thanks to Asuka saying the "Captain's motto"), but that apart her behavior when in battle is pretty much the same than before the time skip, 100% serious and focused.
Outside of battle it's difficult since both times it was on very special situations, ie dealing with Shinji that unexpectedly came back from the death, with everything that it imply. (notably the fact they don't know if it's really him and if he can still be considered a human being)


View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:That character would her father, Misato now at her father's age now personifies this character and at the same time, Anno addresses an absent character from NGE and fixes it in Q, just like the ADAM.

That's a very interesting interpretation, so the subplot of Misato's conflicted feelings toward her father continue by inverting the roles and having her in a similar spot than her father. (bound by the job and duty even if ti interfere with his/her loved ones feelings)
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Postby Ray » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:10 am

Hope this isn't foreshadowing that Misato dies saving Shinji. Again.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:03 am

^
She didn't really died, since she can come back like everyone that died before Instrumentality.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:44 am

Is a temporary death not still a death, technically? Just because it doesn't mean the same thing because it isn't permanent doesn't mean you can't still call it what it is.
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Postby pwhodges » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:58 am

This is a curious thing to think about. How will those who died before instrumentality and come back after remember or feel the experience of dying, especially those who died violently?
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:31 pm

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:Is a temporary death not still a death, technically? Just because it doesn't mean the same thing because it isn't permanent doesn't mean you can't still call it what it is.

Perhaps not to Misato, but for everybody around her (in this case, just Shinji?) As far as he's concerned, Misato was dee-diddly-dead.

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:37 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:This is a curious thing to think about. How will those who died before instrumentality and come back after remember or feel the experience of dying, especially those who died violently?


Well, you've seen my take on it. There's a reason Asuka's nightmares are as bad as they are. Though that does remind me, I should address Misato's sleepless nights as well at some point.

Perhaps she graduates to stronger drink? Hmmm . . .
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Postby Ray » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:06 am

Back on topic. . .

Shinji has a lot of obstacles to overcome if he's even going to begin reconciling with her in Final. Should he even bother to try at this point?
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Postby xyz346 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:57 am

Why not? She still seems to care for him...I think reconciliation is possible.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:52 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Back on topic. . .

Shinji has a lot of obstacles to overcome if he's even going to begin reconciling with her in Final. Should he even bother to try at this point?

Of course, once he realize that she still cares about him (remember that he wasn't present during the scenes where she showed it), or at least he must try. She's one of the few people in his life that showed to care about him for who he was, instead of only for what he could bring to their own goals, they can't just turn their back to it and abandon without even trying just because there are obstacles in their way, as big and difficult as they are.

Besides what are said "obstacles"? And which of them does she really holds against him? If we follow her reaction at seeing Fourth Impact after it at the end of the movie, she understood that the kid was manipulated and that she had a (slight) part of responsibility on it.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger


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