Undisputed Evidence Towards Shinji Ikari's Bisexuality

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Postby obliterates » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:20 am

View Original PostCompiling_Autumn wrote: I don't think that Shinji wanted to have sex with Kaworu. You're welcome to interpret it as otherwise.

It's also important to remember that, in 25' and 26', Kaworu has been dead for less than a week and Asuka is still the main object of Shinji's sexual fantasies.


Absolutely not supported by the EOE sequence. In fact the EOE sequence debunks it:

SPOILER: Show
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Folds of flesh surrounding Unit 01’s Core. Notice the flesh looks just like a vulva.

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And this [the core] is of course the metaophorical vagina.

Image

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Penetration...

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Orgasmic bliss. The drafts make the core-vaginal symbolism very clear:

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, I feels that the "Ho Yay" was largely toned down in NTE.


Look at the movie posters (and the red string of fate) than try to argue for that again.

I think saying Shinji is gay and they are lovers is simplifying the relationship a lot.


They are blatantly portrayed as lovers in the official posters and calendar.

SPOILER: Show
Image
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Her uncle Francesco Sforza arranged for her marriage to Federico da Montefeltro, who was much older than her. The wedding took place on 8 February 1460, when Battista was thirteen years old, and she acted as regent during her husband’s absences from Urbino.

Their marriage was a happy one. They were described by a contemporary, Baldi, as “two souls in one body”.

Battista fell ill three months after their seventh child, and died in July 1472. After the death of Battista, Federico spent much of his time in the magnificent palace in Urbino.

Maeda he tried to imitate Francesca’s style by giving Shinji and Kaworu squashed profiles. Look at the jawlines, he drew them exactly like Battista and Federico. Notice Shinji's strong outline.

The landscape background and profile portraits are all classic Pre Renaissance conventions. Best of all, anyone back then would’ve known that these two people were married because they’re facing each other. Sadamoto and Anno use Tanabata references that are easily recognizable to any Japanese person. And then you get Maeda who likes to use historical imagery to symbolize they’re soul mates.

Anno said the posters were fundamental to the movies. The 3.0 poster features Tanabata, "the meeting of the deities Orihime and Hikoboshi, represented by the stars Vega and Altair… Star-crossed lovers separated by the Milky Way.":

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Orihime and Hikoboshi loved each other intensely, but were only allowed to be together once a year. Not only that, but Shinji's and Misato's VAs confirmed in a 1997 interview that Kaworu was Shinji's Hikoboshi.

Notice also the color of Shinji's earbuds. They’ve always been black throughout the franchise but for this poster only, they’re red at the end and extend to Kaworu. {The red string of fate}. The act of sharing earbuds alone is something that couples do in Japan. So even people that are unfamiliar with the series think that they’re together because they’re sharing the same set.

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there is nothing in the show or movies that prove it beyond a reasonable doubt


There is proof that Kaworu is being billed as Shinji's love interest, with Shinji and Misato's VAs even confirmed and hinting to it in 1997. As Anno said, Satsukawa-san is right on the mark when it comes to homoeroticism.

Isn't the Kawrou character something akin to Jesus of Nazareth? Providing unconditional
love & acceptances towards Shinji. While sacrificing himself so that he can continue on living.


Way to ignore all the blatant romantic soulmate symbolism with the posters in Q.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:26 am

But none of that is proof: you are extrapolating 'proofs' from very ambiguous evidence.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby NemZ » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:27 am

Repeating yourself doesn't help. If they aren't convinced that's just how it is.
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Postby ThanatosII » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:32 am

I dunno, maybe I should throw in the towel and stop contending all romantic interactions in Evangelion are ambiguous.

Any pairing being canon just doesn't sit well with me, but I suppose if I want to be consistent with my belief of what the creators say, Anno no less, is rule of law, then I should let this get a pass.
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Postby obliterates » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:33 am

View Original PostGob Hobblin wrote:But none of that is proof: you are extrapolating 'proofs' from very ambiguous evidence.


How is it ambiguous? If Anno wanted ambiguity he wouldn't have Kaworu use explicit romantic puns (逢), he wouldn't have colored Shinji's blushed a strong red, there wouldn't be phrases like "He whispers to Kaworu, facing the lover that he is about to lose" and "I was attracted to him" in official anthologies, and he certainly wouldn't have saturated the posters, calendar, and promotional material heavy with eternal lover/soulmate symbolisms in Q.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:49 am

View Original Postobliterates wrote:How is it ambiguous? If Anno wanted ambiguity he wouldn't have Kaworu use explicit romantic puns (逢), he wouldn't have colored Shinji's blushed a strong red, there wouldn't be phrases like "He whispers to Kaworu, facing the lover that he is about to lose" and "I was attracted to him" in official anthologies, and he certainly wouldn't have saturated the posters, calendar, and promotional material heavy with eternal lover/soulmate symbolisms in Q.

I don’t question any of these things, really. I just raise the question as to how, for lack of a better term “straight forward” this relationship was, and I also contend that we don’t need to try to lessen his interest in girls (by counting how many times he’s blushed, which is kind of a strange way to make that point) in order to make the bisexuality points any clearer. It’s Shinji’s interest in girls that actually strengthens a discussion of Shinji’s bisexuality, instead of making it a discussion strictly about homosexuality.

But, like everything else in Eva, nothing is a clear as it seems. The film still leaves Kaworu’s very nature and ultimate goals unexplained, and Eva’s had a very closely followed track record of leaving no aspect of it appearing innocent for too long.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:54 am

View Original Postobliterates wrote:Now here I want to clear up a common misconception with previous claims that Shinji was desiring Asuka's tits. I won't argue that Shinji is only attracted to boys in the anime, but this evidence is wrong because those were Misato's


No, they weren't. Check the hair. That's Asuka, not Misato. He's explicitly rejected Misato in a sexual context, and shown distaste at the notion of thinking of her in a sexual fashion. If he wanted her as a mother he wouldn't be imagining her naked.

View Original Postobliterates wrote:For an anime this influential the main character being bisexual is huge.


That certainly explains your investment in the notion, at least.

View Original Postobliterates wrote:I'm sorry, but this is cherrypicking. Notice that when Mari slams into Shinji with her breasts, Shinji does not blush. When Asuka falls into bed with him, Shinji does not blush.


I think you're assigning far too much important to blushing here, and cherrypicking the blushes you find significant. He clearly does blush when confronted with sexual situations with girls, as others have noted; it's not just Kaworu.

View Original Postobliterates wrote:Regardless it's clear that Anno has made Kaworu to be Shinji's official love interest in Q.


No, he hasn't. Shinji doesn't have an official love interest, and Anno's made that clear on a number of occasions.

View Original Postobliterates wrote:And to be frank ignoring these evidences fully and discarding the canon fact that Shinji had an attraction to Kaworu, and that they were meant to be love interests in Q, is misinterpreting Shinji's character. You can still ship Asushin while acknowledging Shinji's feelings for Kaworu, and their relationship in Q, because it is canon.


No, it's not. It's your interpretation. I think it's a reasonable one given what we saw in Q, but it is by no means canon. You're throwing around words like "canon" and "indisputable" and "undeniable" far too liberally when it comes to this topic. It's not indisputable, it's not undeniable, it's not canon. It's just a reasonable interpretation, one that surely matches Anno's original intent (although not what actually made it on air, which was changed significantly from what was originally planned).

IMO Anno's plan for Kaworu evolved quite a bit, both of its own accord and due the limitations of what he could actually show on air. He went from being a legitimate love interest for Shinji to a being who used love itself as a weapon, crushing Shinji in a way the other Angels never could. That love is thus an illusion, and Shinji's reaction to it one of confusion. It is not particularly good evidence of his sexual orientation (and wouldn't be anyway, since it's one data point; to the extent sticking him in this sort of box is useful (and I don't particularly think it is), you need several data points to establish a pattern. Kaworu alone doesn't cut it, particularly given his nature as an Angel).

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:It seems to me not so much that Shinji is bisexual, but simply that we are seeing a representation of the fact that nobody's sexuality is as straightforward as such a term (and its fellows) implies.


Exactly so. Which is why I kinda hate the whole sexual orientation business, as it oversimplifies people and forces them to "pick sides" as it were. It's really not that straightforward in a lot of cases.

View Original Postobliterates wrote:Absolutely not supported by the EOE sequence. In fact the EOE sequence debunks it:


P3II makes it ridiculously explicit, dude. He jerks off to Asuka's naked body, she confirms that he's done it before, all the imagery between the helltrain and the kitchen scene blatantly sexualizes her, and then the kitchen scene itself makes the pairing (and their respective failures) clear. Acting like the LoL penetration scene is somehow evidence for your position while ignoring what's openly stated in P3II is a distortion of the highest order.

They are blatantly portrayed as lovers in the official posters and calendar.


No, they aren't. There's nothing blatant about it at all. You're talking about implications here, subtext. It's a tease, not proof of any sort whatsoever.

Let me give you an example of why the reasoning you're employing here is dangerous:

In Ha Shikinami clearly had a thing for Shinji. She thought Rei did as well, but was mistaken (but that's a separate discussion). Shinji didn't appear to share her feelings, so she ran away to Eva and got Bardieled.

Cue the timeskip.

That should have been the end of it as far as Asuka's feelings went. But it wasn't -- she's clearly angry at him in Q, and both she and Mari suggest she holds a grudge against him because he didn't do more to help her against Bardiel. But that's not all: Kaworu calls Gendo the King of the Lilin, while Mari calls Asuka "princess." Mari also teases Asuka about her feelings for Shinji on a regular basis. And of course, at the end Asuka rescues Shinji and leads him off into the wilderness.

This says nothing about Shinji's feelings, but by your logic it would mean he and Asuka are "officially" a couple. Her feelings are clear, the subtext is all over the place, we can find lots of official art with them together, etc. But here's the problem: Shinji hasn't expressed his feelings on the matter. We don't know if he likes her romantically, or if he ever did. And of course we have no idea what will happen in Shin Eva. But we can't say it's official, because it's not. There're hints and subtext and that's it.

We're in a similar boat with Rei: Rei shippers love to point to Ha and say Rei x Shinji is confirmed, but it isn't. Rei clearly looked at Shinji as family, not a love interest, and we know this because she wanted to have dinner with Shinji and Gendo, not just Shinji alone. Further, Shinji wanted Rei back at the end because he didn't want to lose another friend -- his determination was borne of the fact that he'd already lost Asuka, and was dependent on that fact. It's not proof that he harbors romantic feelings for Rei, or ever did -- it's just proof that he was desperate to hold on to the only people left to him.

It's the same with Kaworu. Hints. Subtext. Symbolism. But not proof, and definitely not canon (we will never get a canon answer on the matter, as Anno likes to keep things ambiguous to hold our interest. Guy's not the master for nothing!).
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby obliterates » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:16 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, they weren't. Check the hair. That's Asuka, not Misato. He's explicitly rejected Misato in a sexual context, and shown distaste at the notion of thinking of her in a sexual fashion. If he wanted her as a mother he wouldn't be imagining her naked.

No, they aren't. There's nothing blatant about it at all. You're talking about implications here, subtext. It's a tease, not proof of any sort whatsoever.

Let me give you an example of why the reasoning you're employing here is dangerous:

It's the same with Kaworu. Hints. Subtext. Symbolism. But not proof, and definitely not canon (we will never get a canon answer on the matter, as Anno likes to keep things ambiguous to hold our interest. Guy's not the master for nothing!).


I will not get into the idea you seem to be perpetuating that NTE Asuka still has romantic feelings for Shinji in Q because I find your arguments ridiculous.

I just want to point out that those were not Asuka's breasts. In the drafts, they are called "woman's breasts":

SPOILER: Show
Image


Also, having those kinds of romantic symbols in Q (Down to a heart tree and the red string of fate) aren't "implications". They are as blatant as blatant can get without coming right out and saying "Kaworu and Shinji are romantic soulmates." In Japan, the red string of fate and Orihime/Hikoboshi are so fully linked with romance and love that a native would laugh at your face if you tried to say they were "ambiguous" and "implying something but not really". They wouldn't devote an entire movie poster for this if they wanted to "imply" romance. Shinji and Asuka do not get this kind of symbolism. They are aggressively pointing towards it in NTE.[/spoiler]
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:22 am

View Original Postobliterates wrote:I will not get into the idea you seem to be perpetuating that NTE Asuka still has romantic feelings for Shinji in Q because I find your arguments ridiculous.


If you're going to come at it with that kind of attitude I see no point to bothering with you.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:25 am

Bagheera knocked it out of the park, but a few more things to add: before talking about Shinji's orientation, then talking about what Kaworu does and does not do has little to no bearing on the topic at hand. Further, you're using material outside of the television series and movies to argue your point. If we're talking canon, those sources can't be considered primary.

And it doesn't change the point that the focus of Shinji's desires is still insufficient to use as a barometer for his orientation, and ignores the important aspects of the relationships themselves. That's a separate discussion however: I'm still concerned with the way that you are insisting that your theory is canon.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby obliterates » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:27 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:If you're going to come at it with that kind of attitude I see no point to bothering with you.


It's also offtopic. I find your arguments riddled with bias because despite not having any sort of meta soulmate/lover symbolism you still claim that it is obvious that NTE Asuka holds romantic feelings for Shinji (conveniently ignoring how when Mari teases her, Asuka shoots her down with no hesitation that points to bitterness, not infatuation) while calling the nature of Shinji and Kaworu's relationship ambiguous and not really indicative of anything.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:31 am

Easy there: you invested a lot into this topic to start throwing around words like bias. And to be fair, all of Shinji's so-called romantic relationships are ambiguous.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby obliterates » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:32 am

Further, you're using material outside of the television series and movies to argue your point. If we're talking canon, those sources can't be considered primary.


The interviews are from Anno.

The calendar (Federico and Battista) is from Khara. (Maeda)

The posters (Orihime and Hikoboshi, Red String of Fate) are from Khara (Sadamoto working with Anno).
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:34 am

Which still don't mean much, because now thats death of the author: are we judging the works by what happened within them, or the ancillary material around them? if we're talking canon, you generally have to stick to the works as they stand.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby obliterates » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:36 am

Also I want to add that I mentioned that the evidence I used in my first post has only scratched the surface. This is real indepth analysis:

http://sass-master-stevens.tumblr.com/post/71185226328/expulsion-from-eden-in-3-0-and-is-shinji-eve

That really digs deep into the symbolic implications of Shinji and Kaworu's interactions in Q. I suggest reading it if you are still unconvinced.
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Postby NemZ » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:40 am

Can everybody please take it down a notch in here? Relax. Argue the points, not the people.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:51 am

I don't understand what the hubbub is about whether Shinji is bisexual or not. The most important thing to determine is whether or not he loved Kaworu, and I would find it hard to believe that the answer would be anything other than a resounding yes. It should not matter what sex Shinji is attracted to, but rather whom, specifically, his attraction is aimed towards.

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:54 am

View Original Postobliterates wrote:I find your arguments riddled with bias because despite not having any sort of meta soulmate/lover symbolism you still claim that it is obvious that NTE Asuka holds romantic feelings for Shinji (conveniently ignoring how when Mari teases her, Asuka shoots her down with no hesitation that points to bitterness, not infatuation)

Asuka, acting tsundere, shock! :lol:
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:43 pm

I'm still away--popping in because I noticed this topic when seeing if I've missed anything (still no FINAL news).

Regardless of the continuity, Shinji needs to find happiness in himself, before he can be happy with others (friends/family, relationships). Mixing continuities to prove a point isn't the right way to go about things, anyway, because each story (NGE/EoE, the manga, the new movies) all tell a different take on a similar story. He's screwed up. The whole cast is. But that doesn't mean they can't fix things for the better, assuming each story does end up with chances for them all to start over. EoE = For sure. Post-3I. Manga = Maybe. Post-3I, high school entrance exams time with the seasons (winter again!) back to normal. FINAL = we don't know yet.

I'm bisexual myself, and I definitely agree Shinji's romantic feelings (Rei/Asuka/Kaworu) are ambiguous in NGE, while EoE makes things somewhat more clear. Misato and Rei/Yui are mother figures, for instance: the sandcastle sequence mother is Misato in the script. His romantic leanings in EoE seem to be Asuka, while he seems more joyful than anything to see Kaworu "alive".

The manga is its own thing (Kaworu and Rei leanings with a hint of Asuka at the end, kinda like EoE) while the new movies aren't finished yet for us to come to a conclusion. We just don't know if Shinji will get into an actual relationship with anybody, or if that would even be one of the points being made in FINAL.

Last I checked (a few years ago, so maybe things changed?) in fandom, for the fun of it, Shinji being bisexual definitely isn't explored enough, so here's an old discussion about it. That link is still active, apparently.

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:
View Original PostChuckman wrote:I'm afraid the fanbase will rebel against me if I depict Shinji as even bisexual, much less gay.


I never got around to it in an actual fanfic (only my long defunct http://ikarishinji2015.tumblr.com/ interactive fanfic/RP thing), but IMO bisexual Shinji is an interesting angle. In my case I went with him crushing on both Kaworu and Asuka. He ended up with Asuka but there was still tons of internal--this being Shinji--and external conflict before and after he made his choice.

I doubt there will be much backlash--we bisexuals aren't portrayed all that much in media, whether it is positively or negatively.

FWIW, I don't write fanfics anymore (various reasons) but those are my thoughts.


Still: what people like in their fandom or head canons isn't necessarily what the actual story/film/whatever is saying, which is an important distinction to make. It's totally fine to like whatever pairings you like, (or don't like, if you think liking pairings or shipping is stupid), but be sure to pay attention to what the story is saying, too.
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Postby Jäeger » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:44 pm

View Original Postobliterates wrote:It's also offtopic. I find your arguments riddled with bias because despite not having any sort of meta soulmate/lover symbolism you still claim that it is obvious that NTE Asuka holds romantic feelings for Shinji (conveniently ignoring how when Mari teases her, Asuka shoots her down with no hesitation that points to bitterness, not infatuation) while calling the nature of Shinji and Kaworu's relationship ambiguous and not really indicative of anything.


Man, you have not seen too much anime, do you?? Tsundere rings a bell??

Seriously, I never hoped to read this again. I can't not wait for your Japanese shipping stadistics.
Man, your obssesion is oscilating from boring to creepy. You have reached the point of denying things that only a blind man would deny. Trying to deny Shinji's obession with the readhead in EoE goes beyond reasonable. If EoE does something, It's not shipping Kaworu. Shinji and Asuka's relationship is open to interpretation, of course, but it's the main relationship (talking about Shinji) in the movie.

Kaworu being an angel, and Jesuschrist in a new form, his only wish is to love everybody. He would love even a possum if the thing needs a hug. Shinji and Kaworu's relationships goes beyond sexuality, and Kaworu's role only has sense with Shinji depressed and confused.

And please, no more shit about blushing references. That it's what is really ridiculous and not Bagheeras's word, whom you should thank his politeness.

Man, you have to suffer whenever you read official spin offs like Angelic Days, SIRP o Petit Eva and witness Kaworu's role.

Still: what people like in their fandom or head canons isn't necessarily what the actual story/film/whatever is saying, which is an important distinction to make. It's totally fine to like whatever pairings you like, (or don't like, if you think liking pairings or shipping is stupid), but be sure to pay attention to what the story is saying, too.


A sad thing, and too usual in forums. In Love Hina, for example, I shipped Makoto, but I Knew what was hapenning in front of my eyes.

He whispers to Kaworu, facing the lover that he is about to lose" and "I was attracted to him" in official anthologies,


If you want to use anthologies as an example of shipping, get ready to get screwed because he is not the main star.

and he certainly wouldn't have saturated the posters, calendar, and promotional material heavy with eternal lover/soulmate symbolisms in Q.


Seriously man, where do you came from??

1) Using that as an argument, I would believe that Asuka and Rei are hot for each other.

2)Image

OMG, your arguments are invalid :facepalm:

And yes, It's official artwork. Please, show us all that official material with Shinji and Kaworu possing as lovers. Die Sterne and Der mond say hi.
Last edited by Jäeger on Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:03 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Do american "cool" people know that in Europe only alcoholics and homeless drink wine without food by its side???


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