Undisputed Evidence Towards Shinji Ikari's Bisexuality

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Postby obliterates » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:32 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:NTE Kaworu is a bit more mysterious than all that. Though, from what we can see of him, it’s clear that he can survive the bitter elements of outer space. We also know that some of the Angels can also travel through space themselves. Even if Kaworu, despite also being an Angel, didn’t have the capabilities of space flight specifically, there’s no reason why he can’t hitch a ride on one of the space-traveling Angels in the 2.22 film to get himself off of the moon and travel to planet Earth in order to make contact with Shinji at a sooner date. Unless, of course, that reason would be that he knew meeting Shinji sooner wouldn’t have worked in his favor at the time. (How he would know this is just as beyond me as how he could have met with Shinji or even have known who Shinji is prior to Q. So far, the Tabris only works in mysterious ways.)


Do you honestly think NTE Kaworu is supposed to be portrayed that "mysterious" and "conniving" with the Kaworu=Hikoboshi and Kaworu=Federico references?

With Anno saying of anime Kaworu that he wanted to portray "an incredibly good person."?
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Postby Ornette » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:37 pm

Most of the older threads discussing this stuff has been locked, but aside from the new content, seems to be worth linking to, as some of this stuff is eerily familiar:

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/3880/Is-Shinji-sexually-attracted-to-Kaworu-split/
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/7884/Shinjis-sexuality/

Including a breakdown of all the blushing.

And maybe more towards the end of this one:
http://forum.evageeks.org/post/244867/Shinjiko-WHY/

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Postby obliterates » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:42 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Including a breakdown of all the blushing.


A breakdown that suggests it was platonic? If you group together all the evidence in my first post and take a objective viewpoint that conclusion would be insane.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:43 pm

View Original Postobliterates wrote:Do you honestly think NTE Kaworu is supposed to be portrayed that "mysterious" and "conniving" with the Hikoboshi and Federico references?

Mysterious? Yes. There’s no denying the rest of the context that shows Kaworu’s interest and knowledge of Shinji prior to ever meeting Shinji. The questions “Why does he know all of this stuff?” and “How does he know all of this stuff?” are all intended results of a solid mysterious atmosphere being built around a certain character.

Conniving?... I’m not so sure, and if he was, I’m not sure to what purpose. It’s clear that his meeting Shinji was a timed event (probably by Seele honestly, as he’s known to Gendo as “Seele’s Boy” who also had his presence all figured out ahead of time), but I’m not sure if Kaworu meant any ill towards Shinji or the rest of humanity in NTE as his NGE counterpart initially did. He does seem truly remorseful at the end when he apologizes to Shinji for “not being the happiness [he] desired.” (That scene always brings me to tears, BTW.) Everything Kaworu wanted to do for Shinji all seemed very beneficial, helpful, and honest, and I would be hard pressed to realize any conniving intentions Kaworu had towards Shinji.

Though honestly, it’s not important what Kaworu thought of Shinji when it comes to discussing Shinji’s sexuality. What matters is what Shinji thought of Kaworu and why.

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Postby Compiling_Autumn » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:00 am

Re: the OG series, I'm not opposed to the idea of Shinji having feelings of confusion or attraction towards Kaworu on top of their friendship. Kaworu is portrayed as being beautiful in a jarring way, and very direct (also in a jarring way) about his feelings. That is enough to knock the already emotionally unstable and depressed Shinji off his axis. I don't think that Shinji wanted to have sex with Kaworu. You're welcome to interpret it as otherwise.

For me, understanding that homo-sociability, homoeroticism and homosexual desire all exist on a continuum. One one end of the spectrum is the "man-crush" that the straight man has. On the other end of the spectrum is the lover and sex partner of the gay or bisexual man.

It's also important to remember that, in 25' and 26', Kaworu has been dead for less than a week and Asuka is still the main object of Shinji's sexual fantasies.


Rebuild is a whole other story. I'd have to rewatch the whole series to put in a meaningful commentary on NTE Shinji's sexuality.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:49 am

I think that the big problem we're facing in both continuities is that in both cases circumstances were exceptional, so it's impossible to say if Shinji's reaction to Kaworu were a genuine attraction or a consequence of said circumstances and if said circumstances were different (as in meeting earlier in the story for example) Shinji would had reacted the same:

In NGE at the moment of their meeting, Shinji was at his lowest: Rei just died and was replaced by a clone, Asuka had a psychotic breakdown and disappeared, Misato completely invested herself in her quest to avenge Kaji, Touji is crippled and in a hospital bed partially due to Shinji's inaction (which makes him unable to face him or his classmates), and Gendo... well better not talk about him.
He's just so desperate for some emotional support and human warm, then out of nowhere comes this dashing young boy, Eva pilot like him, who isn't bonkers or crippled, and who completely and honestly opens to him, exactly what Shinji desperately craved for. But then, due to his ignorance of the Lilin ways and human interactions in general, Kaworu is very earnest in his interactions with Shinji, which confuse the young boy, who then profusely blushes at this dashing young man that's very earnest in his attitude. Does that means that Shinji just subconsciously came out of the closet, or is he merely confused by Kaworu's attitude, but take it in stride because he gives him the attention and emotional support he so desperately craves, and thus is confused about what all of that means about his sexuality?
Well it's kept ambiguous, and I think that it was Anno's intention so everyone could see what they want into that relationship.


Now in NTE the situation is different: first like in NGE, contrary to what you say obliterates, Shinji does show reactions to other girls even in situations where they are naked: first indeed he didn't reacted when Mari slammed her breast in his face, but it has more to do with the fact that he didn't had the time to process what was happening and that he got his head slammed against the ground, and that kill any boner, but he did blushed when Mari started to sniff him, also when Asuka installed herself in his futon, he did blushed. As for his reactions toward Kaji, well he got a man in his thirties that flirted with him and tried to kiss him, anyone would had reacted that way, even if it's later revealed to had been a joke.
But that's not the more important point, the second and more important thing here is that by the time of Q, there's already someone he's very close to, whom could be considered a love interest (if he wasn't so emotionally and socially crippled that he can't even identify what he feels and how act toward it) which is Rei, and even more importantly, for Shinji she was still around and alive!
Also, Shinji wasn't yet feeling totally miserable and alone (notably because he thought that Rei was still here with him), but extremely confused at the situation and how everyone acts, and seeks not emotional support and human warmth, but answers about WTF is happening.
And those different circumstances shows in how Shinji interact and react to Kaworu, and contrary to popular belief, I feels that the "Ho Yay" was largely toned down in NTE. Sure there are moments like the "gay piano" scene as it was "lovely" nicknamed or Kaworu's memetic pose when talking to Shinji when they were stargazing, but that's a long way from Shinji blushing furiously at the mere sight of Kaworu, both taking a freaking bath together or sleeping in the same room.

Since we're all about little symbolisms hidden in any scene, lets compare Shinji's reaction when they meet for the first time in NGE and NTE: in NGE, Shinji immediately blushes and very prominently, while in Q, Shinji merely looks at him and resume his walk with Rei Q, clearly thinking something along the lines of "hey, there's actually someone else alive here, and he's playing piano in the middle of EVA-01's cage, weird.", not a single blush in sight.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:00 am

I don’t know why there’s an attempt to disassociate Shinji with his sexual interest in girls in the series. I thought being bisexual meant that you were open to a relationship with someone of either gender just so long as you felt the person was right. Suggesting that Shinji doesn’t have any sexual interest in one or more girls while also suggesting that he has a sexual interest in Kaworu isn’t an argument for Shinji's bisexuality, but rather against it. That’s an argument that Shinji is just homosexual, not bisexual.

So, yes. Shinji can still blush at Mari’s sniffing, Asuka’s nudity, Rei’s nudity, signifying some interest in the girls, and still be considered bisexual given his relationship with Kaworu.

Also, I feel as though at this point I should point out that I feel as though saying “sexual interest” in association with more that one person (not more than one gender, but more that one person) feels kind of polygamous and therefore also creepy out of context.
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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:40 am

View Original Postobliterates wrote:I'm sorry, but this is cherrypicking. Notice that when Mari slams into Shinji with her breasts, Shinji does not blush. When Asuka falls into bed with him, Shinji does not blush.

The only time when Shinji blushes in NTE is when Kaji tries to kiss him and when Kaworu talks to him in 3.0. I think Shinji's reaction to Kaji can be easily explained by the fact that Kaji is a 30 year old stranger.

Keep in mind Shinji is still very young. But Khara purposely took out all scenes where Shinji blushes at girls and included ones where he only blushes at guys.


The scene with Mari is played for the lolz and I just ignore it. Anyways, it's just a WTF moment.
When Asuka falls into bed with him, he almost has a heart attack (slight exaggeration).
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If a guy tried to kiss me I'd blush too, and I'm not gay.
And I won't go into the Kaworu discussion because I have my own view of it. I'll just say, I think saying Shinji is gay and they are lovers is simplifying the relationship a lot.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:17 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:So, yes. Shinji can still blush at Mari’s sniffing, Asuka’s nudity, Rei’s nudity, signifying some interest in the girls, and still be considered bisexual given his relationship with Kaworu.

The problem (at least for me) is that it's hard to see what was exactly Shinji's relationship toward Kaworu, as I said due tot eh very specific circumstances that surrounded their meeting and short time together. (ie Shinji being at rock-bottom and desperately seeking emotional support and human warmth)
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:17 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:The problem (at least for me) is that it's hard to see what was exactly Shinji's relationship toward Kaworu, as I said due tot eh very specific circumstances that surrounded their meeting and short time together. (ie Shinji being at rock-bottom and desperately seeking emotional support and human warmth)

All of that is true. All of those have lead to that conclusion. The point, though, is that no matter how Shinji ended up having these feelings towards Kaworu, he still had those feelings towards Kaworu. Though, I have mentioned earlier that Shinji clearly isn’t sure about them himself in Q. That entire movie exists just to make Shinji more and more confused as the movie progresses in all areas, including sexuality.

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:23 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Though, I have mentioned earlier that Shinji clearly isn’t sure about them himself in Q. That entire movie exists just to make Shinji more and more confused as the movie progresses in all areas, including sexuality.

Personally, Shinji was confused about so many big things (and crushed by so many more) that I didn't saw any confusion about his sexuality, as Shinji had many much bigger things in mind.
But it's clear that there's a lot of symbolism putting them as potential love interests, down to the poster of the film! :lol:
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:29 am

The problem for me, with this arhument, is the continued insistence that its canon. I won't deny the possibility of Shinji's bisexuality (and agree that it's highly likely), but there is nothing in the show or movies that prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. As has been pointed out, Shinji's attachments to people are formed in extremely stressful circumstances, and determining anything as fundamental as orientation is tenuous. Like many things in Evangelion, there are layers of ambiguity around this topic, as such to make any interpretation possible. It's not ironclad.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Dataprime » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:31 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote: as Shinji had many much bigger things in mind.

Like saving all of mankind!

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:32 am

It seems to me not so much that Shinji is bisexual, but simply that we are seeing a representation of the fact that nobody's sexuality is as straightforward as such a term (and its fellows) implies.
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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:33 am

^

This is the best answer I think anyone can give on the topic.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Dataprime » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:34 am

Do you think anyone ever talked to Shinji about, you know sex and all that jazz?

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:35 am

There's also the fact that Kaworu is a being on a league of his own in terms of personality, which too contribute to blur the line on whether Shinji is really also attracted by boys, or if it was just because Kaworu is Kaworu.

@Dataprime: The thermal expansion and EoE seems to indicate that yes, his Sensei gave him the talk about the Birds and the Bees.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:52 am

A good point, ElMariachi. Kaworu is the only male that Shinji shows any interest in (and let's not forget Shinji's reaction to Kaji flirting with him in both the series and the films, both of which seem to point away from broader bisexuality). you can't form a concrete opinion about a person's orientation from a single case. And again, it's Kaworu: I think it's impossible to turn down the charms of a demigod.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
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Postby Dataprime » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:58 am

Isn't the Kawrou character something akin to Jesus of Nazareth? Providing unconditional
love & acceptances towards Shinji. While sacrificing himself so that he can continue on living.

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Postby Gob Hobblin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:06 am

Yep.
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
-Sorrow

Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
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We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
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Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?


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