Well, all I can really say is if the film really is trying to push the Chinese agenda at least it's not taking the socialist realism route and trying to cram huge images of Stalin, Mao and giant red stars down our throats; it doesn't try and suggest that things in China are better because of Communism, and the the democratic American heroes don't suddenly convert to Communism out of gratitude to the Great Leader. If it actually is trying to push China it seems to be pushing the nation as a whole rather than the values of Communism.

Either way, it's still a bad movie and its insidious attempts to infiltrate the minds of the young with the joys of the commune are probably one of its less-noticeable flaws.

Time and budget constraints? In a Michael bay movie?

Bay is well known in the industry for bringing projects in ahead of schedule and under budget.

Tell me WHY did you go see this movie? It doesn't respect your intelligence, so why go see movies that don't respect your intelligence?

Why do his movies KEEP making more and more money despite getting worse and worse in terms of story, character, basically everything a movie SHOULD have to be considered good? Why do people keep going to see movies from a man who. . . directly insults his audiences intelligence, over and over again?

Ray wrote:Tell me WHY did you go see this movie? It doesn't respect your intelligence, so why go see movies that don't respect your intelligence?

Why do his movies KEEP making more and more money despite getting worse and worse in terms of story, character, basically everything a movie SHOULD have to be considered good? Why do people keep going to see movies from a man who. . . directly insults his audiences intelligence, over and over again?

Because sometimes people don't want a deep, heavy, philosophical movie- they just want a bit of light, enjoyable fun. Which is exactly what the movies are. It's the same reason the original cartoon was popular- not because it was actually good or well written (far from it, objectively it was dreadful) but it was fun to watch.

Ray wrote:It doesn't respect your intelligence, so why go see movies that don't respect your intelligence?

Because I'm not a Mensa egotist.

I'm not looking for deep or philosophical.

Mindless entertainment is fine, as long as it respects your intelligence, is creative, and above all else. . . FRESH. By that, I mean not pandering to the lowest common denominator with T&A and explosions. By that I mean breaking up the action with character development and take at least a little time to explain why what happened, happened.

We know Cybertron died because of a war between the Bots and Cons, but we never get any insight into what caused said war. Did the bots have a political disagreement that descended into civil war? Was there a military dictatorship that they failed to overthrow? It's never explained! Optimus and Megatron were once friends, does Bay take time to have even one scene showing the relationship they once had and why they hate each other now?

You can show Iron Hide and Jazz getting ripped apart, and Megatron getting blown apart time and time again. But unless you set a little time aside to make me care for them as something more than Plot devices. I'm not going to have any feelings about it.

A few cases in point:

Transformers has ALWAYS been mindless entertainment since day 1. The G1 cartoon was, by any standards, awful. Most of the other cartoons have been just as bad. A few continuities aren't completely mindless, but have 0 appeal to anyone who isn't already a Transformers fan, and most of their "depth" is just shoutouts to the original series. In fact the only Transformers continuity that is actually genuinely good is Beast Wars, which is widely hated by the fans because it isn't G1.

TF fans don't hate the movies because they're mindless drivel. They hate them because they're not the same mindless drivel they watched 30 years ago.

The thing I love about Beast Wars is that it provides the only logical explanation for the transforming thing. In G1 the "robots in disguise" make public appearances and a species of sentient machines that turn into vehicles build vehicles to fly around in.

The weird thing is, as far as I know, the various ships are the only things from the property that have never been merchandized.

Squigsquasher wrote:In fact the only Transformers continuity that is actually genuinely good is Beast Wars, which is widely hated by the fans because it isn't G1.

Transformers Prime? That whole cartoon was basically the Bay movies done right, I want a live action version of that.

TF fans don't hate the movies because they're mindless drivel. They hate them because they're not the same mindless drivel they watched 30 years ago.

They hate the first movie because it's not the same mindless drivel they grew up with.

They hate the other three movies because its the same mindless drivel that got even WORSE thanks to Bays own Hubris. I liked the first movie okay, the human characters were necessary in that one to introduce us to the world of the Transformers, and the relatively innocent Boy and his Giant Robot bond between Bumble Bee and Sam was strong enough to carry a movie even with Megan Foxes annoying and unnecessary presence. That was lost in the next three movies.

And then they turned robot Jesus Optimus Prime into a Sociopathic Shell shocked War Veteran, that was the deal breaker for me.

Regardless if you like it or not, the movie is still making $$$

Domestic Total as of Jul. 28: $237,124,208

^ Funny thing, though. I read an article recently (I think it was in the Hollywood Reporter) where major studios were concerned that their movies weren’t breaking the $300 Million watermark early enough to justify the spending on them. (This included titles like Tranny 4.) Many studios were hoping movies like Lucy, the new Ninja Turtles movie, and the recently released Planet of the Apes installment were going to do better in the box office than Tranny 4 so that they could stay afloat.

And I’m just sitting here thinking of the consequences of making movies so expensive that $270 Million in a couple of weeks from your domestic release isn’t enough to cover costs. If this keeps happening, some major studios are gonna go into bankruptcy pretty soon.

Ray wrote:And then they turned robot Jesus Optimus Prime into a Sociopathic Shell shocked War Veteran, that was the deal breaker for me.

Meh. I don't think copping an attitude toward people who are trying to kill you and executing mortal enemies is sociopathic, personally. Just believable on the one hand and common sense on the other (because really, it's not like Megatron or Sentinel Prime could ever be trusted to reform, and we know they'd pull the same crap again if they got a chance, so who in his right mind would let them stick around?).

There were many problems with these movies, but IMO Optimus Prime is not one of them.

I don't think may ever expect a serous Transformers movie soon. I say this because I can
remember seeing a trailer for the first Bayformers while going to see a movie with my dad.
A good chunk of the auditions just laughed it off and cracked jokes. That kind of shows the
mentality of the average american moviegoer, I guess.

Yeah, to be honest I wouldn't watch a Bayformers movie hoping to see something that would change my life, I would go for some companionship, popcorn and a huge cup of Coke. And maybe some cheap laughs.

You could get that from any other much better written, acted, and directed Blockbuster movie.

Again, tickets for good movies and bad movies alike cost the same (unless you go see it in 3D). So you can make a decision, Michael Bay doesn't control you, you control you! Choose the Lobster, you can afford it! It cost the same as the Big Mac!

I reiterate mindless entertainment is fine, as long brings something new to the table.

What did Transformers 4 bring that we hadn't seen before? Nothing! We've seen explosions! We've seen CGI Robots ripping each other apart. We've seen T&A before. He made the exact same movie FOUR TIMES. and we went to see it. Four times in a row! Why?

Ray wrote:Again, tickets for good movies and bad movies alike cost the same (unless you go see it in 3D). So you can make a decision, Michael Bay doesn't control you, you control you! Choose the Lobster, you can afford it! It cost the same as the Big Mac!

. . . but I don't want lobster all the time. Sometimes I want a Big Mac (actually I don't want either, but substitute steak and ultimate cheeseburger and the argument's much the same). You're right, Michael Bay doesn't control me; neither do you. I'll see his movie if I damn well feel like it, and skip it for the same reason. But I'll make that decision for my reasons, not yours.

I reiterate mindless entertainment is fine, as long brings something new to the table.

For you. Many of us don't care about the qualifier.

What did Transformers 4 bring that we hadn't seen before? Nothing! We've seen explosions! We've seen CGI Robots ripping each other apart. We've seen T&A before. He made the exact same movie FOUR TIMES. and we went to see it. Four times in a row! Why?

Because it's fun. If you don't think so you don't, but other people aren't you.

You might make more headway here if you tried communicating with and understanding people rather than telling them what they should like. Because, well, they react badly to the latter approach, as you've seen.

Ray wrote:Choose the Lobster, you can afford it! It cost the same as the Big Mac!

Some people like Big Macs. If we ate lobster all the time it would get boring.

You seem to be going in circles with this argument.

Lobster was considered a plebian dish fit only for poor watermen. Since, you know, it's a big bug.

Bagheera wrote:Meh. I don't think copping an attitude toward people who are trying to kill you and executing mortal enemies is sociopathic, personally. Just believable on the one hand and common sense on the other (because really, it's not like Megatron or Sentinel Prime could ever be trusted to reform, and we know they'd pull the same crap again if they got a chance, so who in his right mind would let them stick around?).

Optimus killing Sentinel isn't the problem, it's the setup.
Sentinel was completely disarmed and helpless at that point. Killing your enemies when they're basically your prisoner is not a great image to stuff in a kids movie. It makes Optimus look just as brutal as the Decepticons executing Autobots just 10 minutes earlier. Commentary on superpower hypocrisy this is most likely not. Mercy is just too unmanly.