Does FINAL even have a chance?

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:23 am

^
You have a weird definition of conventional. :cringe:

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Just as a thought, her presence overall could end up being a simplified version of NGE/EoE: maybe she's just a bookend in the first(-ish) and final scenes of NTE. But we'll just have to wait and see.

Well, her appearance in front of Shinji in 1.0 could represent the "starting point" of her recollection of souls, her last appearance floating above the sea in the last scene of EoE being the point in time where she stopped to collect, as it was speculated for years, but in Rebuild her second appearance in front of Rei Q doesn't make sense in that scheme: what is that supposed to mean, "Sorry I have only enough timey-wimey mumbo-jumbo juice for 14 years for my collect of souls, so I'm ending it here, those who dies after this point, well bad luck, no hard feelings!"
The fact that Rei Q was visibly troubled by that appearation and started to get worried about Shinji and question herself after that "meeting" imply that it was what that Rei ghost had planned, to give Rei Q the "push" necessary to break her routine and start asking questions, that would lead her to desert neo-ENRV during the final battle. So that would mean that this Rei, if its indeed Quantum!Rei, or a telepathic emission from Rei II inside EVA-01 (and not a fragment of genetic memory of course) does have her own agenda going beyond "wait for everyone's plan to unfold and do whatever I want once Instrumentality starts".
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:32 am

^ ^
I've seen it done quite a few times in fiction :shrug: I've said it before and I'll it again, Everything that can be done has already been done, the only thing that makes anything unique anymore are the combinations you decide to use.
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Postby SEELE » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:51 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
You have a weird definition of conventional. :cringe:


Well, her appearance in front of Shinji in 1.0 could represent the "starting point" of her recollection of souls, her last appearance floating above the sea in the last scene of EoE being the point in time where she stopped to collect, as it was speculated for years, but in Rebuild her second appearance in front of Rei Q doesn't make sense in that scheme: what is that supposed to mean, "Sorry I have only enough timey-wimey mumbo-jumbo juice for 14 years for my collect of souls, so I'm ending it here, those who dies after this point, well bad luck, no hard feelings!"


You are right about this "starting point". But think the Quantum!Rei from Q is something like revision of EoE/NGE. Think it that way: 1.0 and 2.0 cover up everything that happend within NGE and to a similiar part of EoE. Asuka gets nearly killed (indirectly by Shinji) (check!), Rei's character arc is sloved (it is implied that she died), Gendo's manipulation is at his peak, SEELE has a new Evangelion-pilot and Unit (its funny how much the Cassius-scene reminded me of EoE where Kaworu comes out of GNR) where he also brings the fusion of Lilith and an Adam. From a story-telling perspective it is a coverage of NGE+EoE to some degree. Shinji wasn't at his lowest - yeah. But the fact that we ended in Q with the desert is somehow a implication for the ongoing of the story. Think about it: Asuka is pissed at him, Rei is a vegetable, Misato is merely pissed at him for iniate 4th Impact. Its a little bit similiar to EoE if you interpret the actions by Shinji. And the mindset at the end of Q is similiar to EoE. The message remains the same - at the End of Q and EoE.

So from this perspective - Quantum!Rei is a fourth wall break for the audience from Anno to tell "so i covered everything up from the original material - now im gonna make something new". Yeah there will be a final Impact with the howl tangification ... but then again, it is also a way of continue telling the ONE MORE FINAL from EoE. I interpret my FF (the ending) by FINAL to some degree because i think it could bring closure.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:08 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Well, her appearance in front of Shinji in 1.0 could represent the "starting point" of her recollection of souls, her last appearance floating above the sea in the last scene of EoE being the point in time where she stopped to collect, as it was speculated for years, but in Rebuild her second appearance in front of Rei Q doesn't make sense in that scheme: what is that supposed to mean, "Sorry I have only enough timey-wimey mumbo-jumbo juice for 14 years for my collect of souls, so I'm ending it here, those who dies after this point, well bad luck, no hard feelings!"


Dealing with Ghost!Rei is a lot easier when you stop trying to make her a time traveler.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:07 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Dealing with Ghost!Rei is a lot easier when you stop trying to make her a time traveler.

That's why I'm also keeping the hypothesis that the ghost was a psychic projection of Rei II inside EVA-01.
That would make the story easier to digest, although that still wouldn't explain the ghost at the beginning of 1.0, assuming that Anno will answer this question and didn't just included it because that was present in NGE, which is also a possibility.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:35 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:That's why I'm also keeping the hypothesis that the ghost was a psychic projection of Rei II inside EVA-01.
That would make the story easier to digest, although that still wouldn't explain the ghost at the beginning of 1.0, assuming that Anno will answer this question and didn't just included it because that was present in NGE, which is also a possibility.


It's Rei. Psychic projections are always possible, they're kinda her thing.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:27 am

^
So in 1.0, while she was lying in her hospital bed, she got bored and launched a psychic projection to have a look at the famous boy who was gonna to replace her?

That's also a possibility, damn girl and her ambiguous unexplained powers! :lol:
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Stillborn » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:02 am

Rei's ghost is a restless spirit, unable to pass on, since she was denied smexy time with Shinji in every continuity :tongue:
Another jaded man.
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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:38 am

She wants her poka poka, and neither death nor space-time continuum will stop her! :lol:
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Stillborn » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:54 am

Anno is doing everything to prevent it, but someday Anno will disappear but fandom will stay and will assist Rei to commit wincest unopposed :mwahaha:
Another jaded man.
Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

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Postby Grimmjow » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:13 pm

Rei will be making Shinji sceam "I mustn't run away. I mustn't run away!"

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:37 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:So that would mean that this Rei, if its indeed Quantum!Rei, or a telepathic emission from Rei II inside EVA-01 (and not a fragment of genetic memory of course) does have her own agenda going beyond "wait for everyone's plan to unfold and do whatever I want once Instrumentality starts".


I definitely agree with Rei 2 communicating to 3.0 Rei from Eva-01. My headcanon--unless we get something to the contrary--is at some point or another within Eva-01, Rei 2/Yui came up with some plans on how to eventually "set things right" (stopping Gendo/Seele's Instrumentality). Which can be inferred to an extent from EoE with Lilith/Adam/Yui.

I was just throwing a different thought process out there.
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:03 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Dealing with Ghost!Rei is a lot easier when you stop trying to make her a time traveler.

Or for that matter, dealing with Ghost!Rei is a lot easier when we stop assuming that we should be using any NGE fan-theories as a starting point. I'm still bothered each time I see an assumption from NGE carried over without question into New Theatrical discussion.

For example: Is it even clear that souls exist in this continuity? Or that AT Fields have any connection to them? What if AT Fields are just energy fields this time, and humans neither have nor need them? After all, cores seem to be very different and very special things in this continuity, and being made entirely of core is something special and a concept that didn't exist in NGE. Why do people keep assuming that unless something is stated otherwise we should assume the mechanics work as they did in NGE, when so much has already changed?

Knowing this, why assume that Rei can do any soul collection at all, or that Instrumentality is anything like NGE's version? If anything all indications we have are to the contrary, because I sure don't remember any Failures of Infinity in NGE.

The only thing we've got going right now is that Ghost!Rei is a psychic projection. This comes solely from evidence in Rebuild itself: Rei's apparent psychic communication with Shinji in Ha that allowed her to even know to search for his SDAT, and the mysterious communication with him in Q that either coincided with or caused Rei-Q's discovery of him. There's been no hint of quantum mechanics in Rebuild just yet that I'm aware of, so why is anyone jumping to the conclusion that we're seeing a quantum Rei?
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Postby Ray » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:30 am

If you haven't checked it out yet. . .
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/15939/No-Happy-Ending-Predestination-In-Rebuild/

Basically the theory is THIS scene would never have happened in the first episode of NGE and the first scene of Rebuild:
SPOILER: Show

Image

Image


If THIS scene had never happened in EOE, and/or a similar scene been predestined to happen in Final.
SPOILER: Show

Image


The theme of predestination is downplayed in the Rebuilds, but I'd argue it still does apply to a degree. Either N3I in 2.0, or Instrumentality in Final, was predestined to happen. Because if it hadn't, Shinji would never have seen Rei in 1.0. Unless quantum Rei can send psychic emissions of herself back in time.
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:37 am

Brohamicuses and Sishamicuses alike, Rebuild is built on lies and deceit.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:48 am

View Original PostRay wrote:Basically the theory is THIS scene would never have happened in the first episode of NGE and the first scene of Rebuild:
SPOILER: Show






If THIS scene had never happened in EOE, and/or a similar scene been predestined to happen in Final.
SPOILER: Show



The problem is that those two scenes are presumed to be connected in NGE and EoE, which is an assumption, not a fact. If they are not connected -- as I've argued in the past -- it follows that we need not assume a parallel between EoE and Final. Simply put there is no time travel in Eva, which means the whole predestination angle is a non-starter.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:23 am

View Original PostRay wrote:The theme of predestination is downplayed in the Rebuilds, but I'd argue it still does apply to a degree. Either N3I in 2.0, or Instrumentality in Final, was predestined to happen. Because if it hadn't, Shinji would never have seen Rei in 1.0. Unless quantum Rei can send psychic emissions of herself back in time.

That theme is not downplayed, it's actively fought by WILLE, and in a way that doesn't look like desperately flailing around which will obviously end in failure (ie Misato and Asuka's efforts in EoE)
Kaworu depicts the HIP as something "programmed in time immemorial", something that help the Lilin to artificially evolve since unlike the rest of Earth's lifeforms they can't do it on their own, all of this coincide exactly SEELE's propaganda of the "scenario" of the "fated purification of all souls", predeterminism at its finest, and WILLE is fighting against that, so that there will be no more Impact, no more HIP, mankind will be finally free of building its own path. Hell it's even in the name of the organization: WILLE = "will", as in "free will", the will to fight for what you believe in!

I just can't see all of this being introduced in the third part of the story by Anno just to subvert it one movie later so that no, sorry, SEELE was right and everything was predetermined, enjoy your Instrumentality in the face!
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:26 am

@ Baggy

Exactly, none of that lame ass time travel crap is necessary, though I don't technically count Omnipresence time travel.
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Postby Monk Ed » Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:03 am

Phew! That was quite a tangent. It even has tangents on its tangents. But at least this topic is back to normal...ish. Carry on.
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Postby Chuckman » Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:11 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote: Simply put there is no time travel in Eva, which means the whole predestination angle is a non-starter.


Rei/Lilith travels back in/exists in multiple times and places. She collects souls from dead people before her ascent in EoE. This is shown on screen, it's not something I made up. You can clearly see Rei grabbing Ritsuko and Misato prior to the scene with Gendo in Terminal Dogma. An effect is preceded by a cause. Time shenanigans, full stop.

There is no explanation for the Figure of Rei (in NGE) that is less convoluted and absurd than time "travel" ...not really travel... unless you buy into some absurd notion like Rei demonstrating a superpower once for no particular reason or something.

Also, there is definitely predestination in Eva. The Eternal Recurrence is a theme at play here, as I will explain in my forthcoming essay on how Eva explores Nietzschean philosophy without ever directly referencing Nietzsche.

Until an explanation appears for the Figure in 1.0 I'm assuming it's the same theme at work.
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