Ray wrote:I mean, I came around to liking Shinji, and I hated him for years after seeing EOE. . .

Between Manga's atrocious video transfer and my immediate parsing of the crucial bit as "staring at his hand, yet again; get on with it", that wasn't why EoE!Shinji got added to my shit-list. It was pretty much everything else that did it.

I hate EoE Shinji because he pussed out from godhood.

That's one more thing with Shinji. Everything he does ends up with a fizzle.

Chuckman wrote:I hate EoE Shinji because he pussed out from godhood.

There wasn't any godhood for Shinji here: Rei was the God(dess), and she simply told him "hey, do you want me to trigger Instrumentality or not?", that's all, Shinji didn't had any power of creation or things like that, it was just "Instrumentality or not Instrumentality".

A lot of it also revolves around how the show/Rebuild shows his successes. In both, with almost all of Shinji's victories they ultimately feel hollow. Shinji does not feel better about himself. Several times he is berated for his dumb actions. Or, many of the more "badass" moments feel horrifying such as Eva unit 01 eating Zeruel.

Even in the show, when Shinji begins to feel like a "badass" he gets swallowed by Lelial and goes through one of his many horrifying experiences. The reason why people cheered at the end of 2.22 is because Shinji's actions there seem positively "heroic" despite the dire consequences of his actions.

There is a lack of a sense of a triumph to any of Shinji's actions, mainly due to Shinji's reactions but also due to the general circumstances. The closest I can think of that seems incredibly triumphant is the EoTV. EoE might have given some triumph for Shinji if it had left out the choking Asuka scene at the end.

I think that's why so many people who first watch it hate him. There's no triumph or satisfaction to anything he does.

They didn't seem heroic, they were heroic.

Steps to Heroism
1. Save the Girl
2. Figure that part out later
3. You're hero now.

Chuckman wrote:They didn't seem heroic, they were heroic.

Steps to Heroism
1. Save the Girl
2. Figure that part out later
3. You're hero now.

You're correct and I always felt it odd that people were so harsh on Shinji for the decision to save Rei.

Then again, many Eva fans can't make up their minds whether to coddle Shinji, berate him, or rage at him so it shouldn't be surprising.

There is a notable lack of triumphant heroic behavior from Shinji during the series, which throws people for a loop.

Grimmjow wrote:There is a notable lack of triumphant heroic behavior from Shinji during the series, which throws people for a loop.

There were a lot of heroic moments even in the series: just accepting to pilot in episode 1 so an injured Rei wouldn't had to do it, or keeping his cool against Ramiel, his fight alongside Asuka underwater in episode 8, his "ballet duo" with her to defeat Israfel, jumping inside a fucking volcano to save her and reaching and stopping dead Sahaquiel.

The problem isn't the actions he does, but his motivations to do it that are completely hollow: he does all of this with the hope to gain his father's praise and acceptance, while it's painfully obvious that Gendo is an asshole that doesn't deserve the effort and that a son shouldn't have to get through all this suffering to gain his father's acceptance (which Gendo will never give to Shinji anyway).
Of course Shinji can't see that since he interacts so little with his father, but the audience see it in the scenes centered around Gendo.

Unfortunately, by the time he realize Gendo isn't worth Shinji's efforts, we arrive at episode 19, were all the badass moments stop to leave place to the horrifying mind fuck and constant grinding leading to the emotional husks the characters were reduced to by the time of EoTV/EoE.

ElMariachi wrote:There were a lot of heroic moments even in the series: just accepting to pilot in episode 1 so an injured Rei wouldn't had to do it, or keeping his cool against Ramiel, his fight alongside Asuka underwater in episode 8, his "ballet duo" with her to defeat Israfel, jumping inside a fucking volcano to save her and reaching and stopping dead Sahaquiel.

The problem isn't the actions he does, but his motivations to do it that are completely hollow: he does all of this with the hope to gain his father's praise and acceptance, while it's painfully obvious that Gendo is an asshole that doesn't deserve the effort and that a son shouldn't have to get through all this suffering to gain his father's acceptance (which Gendo will never give to Shinji anyway).
Of course Shinji can't see that since he interacts so little with his father, but the audience see it in the scenes centered around Gendo.

Unfortunately, by the time he realize Gendo isn't worth Shinji's efforts, we arrive at episode 19, were all the badass moments stop to leave place to the horrifying mind fuck and constant grinding leading to the emotional husks the characters were reduced to by the time of EoTV/EoE.

Thank you for the clarification, though I would argue that for many people, it's difficult to see certain actions as heroic especially if the character seems to break down or become worse after those actions, like Shinji does, or his motivations are so hollow that you don't get any satisfaction out of Shinji's actions.

Shinji certainly does do some brave things which we should definitely give him credit for. The problem that so many new viewers have with him is his general attitude, motivations, and reactions to his achievements. Plus there's this age old joke.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AvUfuOhs7K0/U2hda0ZnFQI/AAAAAAAAEmA/Lcrf_mnMOHE/s1600/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_parody_Critical_Miss_Escapistmagazine_dot_com_Asuka_Langley_Soryu_Rei_Ayanami_Misato_Katsuragi_Shinji_Ikari_Gendo_Ikari.jpg

I find it's not that hard to get people intrigued or interested by Eva but its difficult to get them to give ole Shinji a chance.

Grimmjow wrote:Thank you for the clarification, though I would argue that for many people, it's difficult to see certain actions as heroic especially if the character seems to break down or become worse after those actions

Which is what most soldiers react to constant life threatening situations IRL, and we're talking about grown up men here (well more or less, since many enlist at 18), so imagine how a teenager must feel.

The cliché of the teen going to life threatening situations and taking all the stress in stride or even eager to fight is just that, a cliché, people like that IRL are an extreme minority, and usually not the most right in the head, but that's a cliché that was beaten so much in anime or movies (both Eastern and Western) that someone breaking the mold and acting more realistically looks like a coward, of course if your scale of comparison is the typical hot-blooded hero almost obsessed by fighting and getting stronger able to somehow shrug off repetitive life-threatening injuries and only looking forward to the next fight once its over.

Grimmjow wrote:Plus there's this age old joke.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AvUfuOhs7K0/U2hda0ZnFQI/AAAAAAAAEmA/Lcrf_mnMOHE/s1600/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_parody_Critical_Miss_Escapistmagazine_dot_com_Asuka_Langley_Soryu_Rei_Ayanami_Misato_Katsuragi_Shinji_Ikari_Gendo_Ikari.jpg

I find it's not that hard to get people intrigued or interested by Eva but its difficult to get them to give ole Shinji a chance.

The ironic thing is that this comics is supposed to be sarcastic: the author knows very well that the situation is far more complicated than that, and was just humorously taking a subtle jib toward people that think that Shinji had it easy, and also raising the bait for all the Eva fans to take it and rage their protest that it's more complicated than that, and they did it, hook, line, and sinker!

^
Exactly Good Sir

^
Well, it's so easy to enrage the Evangelion fanbase, hard to resist giving a jab to them from time to time!

ElMariachi wrote:Which is what most soldiers react to constant life threatening situations IRL, and we're talking about grown up men here (well more or less, since many enlist at 18), so imagine how a teenager must feel.

The cliché of the teen going to life threatening situations and taking all the stress in stride or even eager to fight is just that, a cliché, people like that IRL are an extreme minority, and usually not the most right in the head, but that's a cliché that was beaten so much in anime or movies (both Eastern and Western) that someone breaking the mold and acting more realistically looks like a coward, of course if your scale of comparison is the typical hot-blooded hero almost obsessed by fighting and getting stronger able to somehow shrug off repetitive life-threatening injuries and only looking forward to the next fight once its over.

Fictional tropes are strong indeed, and the trope of the strong, sturdy hero is so ingrained into culture and society that it's very difficult to unravel.

I'm curious if Shinji started out as a relatively normal teen, and then became traumatized due to fighting if people would have been more sympathetic to him. It makes perfect sense why Shinji is the way he is. He has no strong base. He doesn't have friends, family, or comrades to support him thus he has very little self worth. His attempt to do things only to please others is very understandable, but in almost every story, that isn't heroic. It's considered weak.


I have theorized the reason why the Eva fanbase is so easily enraged is that so many people are emotionally invested in Eva. They relate deeply to the struggles of the characters, thus when someone criticizes Eva in a somewhat shallow way, people get very pissed.

Although I've seen just about every criticism of Eva get countered with, "You're just too dumb to understand it." So I can understand why lots of people don't like Eva fans.

^ i like how everyone is acting like they are not part of the eva fanbase for the sake of this argument, you are making fun of yourself here guys XD

Rosenakahara wrote:^ i like how everyone is acting like they are not part of the eva fanbase for the sake of this argument, you are making fun of yourself here guys XD

You don't have to be a certain type of person to be in the Eva fanbase. I love it a lot but I understand why many don't and I don't get offended by many of the popular jokes about it (in fact I chuckle at a lot of them).

Eva is a divisive series and it isn't for everyone although I would argue it's good to check into it just for experience sake. I think JesuOtaku said it best "Eva is a much watch but not a must love."

I was kinda startled and appalled when I frist encountered a few examples of a sort of anti-ENG backlash online, with people flat out decrying Evangelion as criminally overrated and expounding at great length on how they thought it was a miserable worthless franchise and that they couldn't for the lives of them see how it could become so popular.
At first I was flabbergasted that anyone could think that about a show of such depth and quality, and especially one in which I was so emotionally invested.
But after a while I sorta began to see how their criticisms could be interpreted as perfectly valid, and see how things might look from their perspective (obtuse, superficial and reactionary as I might believe it to be).
I guess the point is: people are entitled to their opinions and ENG is something of a flawed gem when viewed from certain aspects.

Don't get me wrong, mind - I still wanted to grab these people and skullfuck them to death.

Shinji is the only reason I still have any interest in this show. I thought he was a coward at first, but it became clear after the first few episodes that there was more to it than that.

Holy shit, Tines used a quote from me to make a point, I'm both honored and amazed.

As to the topic, I've only ever shown Eva to one person, and she was greatlly sympathetic toward the whole of the cast. Because srsly, they all get a raw deal.

Tumbling Down wrote:Shinji is the only reason I still have any interest in this show. I thought he was a coward at first, but it became clear after the first few episodes that there was more to it than that.

Someone who understands! THANK YOU!

Well, I like Shinji, but I can't blame them for not liking him—especially if they only see the first few episodes, in which his abandonment issues aren't fully conveyed and he (apparently) refuses to save the world on a childish whim. Of course they're going to have a dim view of him if that's all they see.