Neo-NERV or WILLE--whose side are you on?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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one-eyed
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Postby one-eyed » Thu May 01, 2014 12:59 pm

I'm on the side of Pilots and cheer for Misato and Sakura, despite not think the two will come out of this madness alive (maybe not even the Pilots!), only to ANNOy me even more.

I never had anger or disgust by Wille, only thought they were childish. I can understand pragmatism. I can understand cruelty, but that was childish. They reminded me of Gendo in the first episode of NGE, the first thing he did was intimidate Shinji until he lowers his head. Gendo looked like a high school bully entreating a new student. Wille was the same: acted like children with an unwanted guest.

Unfortunately, I think their fate will be similar to Trojans, to General Custer, the Alamo and the Gauls in Alesia. To paraphrase Lord Alfred Tennyson in The Charge of the Light Brigade: "Theirs not to make reply / Theirs not to reason why / Theirs but to do and die :/ Into the valley of Death."

They will fight bravely and die quickly ... and Misato with them because she is a true commander and leads her subordinates, unlike Gendo in EoE that abandoned them and used them as human shields and distraction to his "great and mighty plan."

But even if they lose, I'm on their side. To the bitter end.

The Charge of the Light Brigade by Lord Alfred Tennyson:
SPOILER: Show

The Charge of the Light Brigade

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!
"Charge for the guns!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air,
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honor the charge they made,
Honor the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred.


P.S.: I even chose the music for the funeral of Misato or Kaji:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW0CW9s2rLY

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu May 01, 2014 2:38 pm

^'The Charge of the Light Brigade' oddly resembles the position Eva-02+02 finds itself in at the end of the 4.0 trailer.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀

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Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you

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Postby wiser3754 » Sat May 03, 2014 3:40 am

What I find interesting in this debate is the future for WILLE.

If public knowledge begins to spread that WILLE had acquired Unit-01 and are using to power the AAA WUNDER and had been found out that WILLE had been at the epicentre of N4I, will humanity in general begin to believe that WILLE had started it, and their (WILLEs) intentions may not be what WILLE had disclosed publicly?
I watch and speculate.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat May 03, 2014 8:28 am

^
It was probably already broadcast to every remaining Lilin settlement that WILLE finally obtained the power to make the AAA Wunder fly and that now they have the means to fight back SEELE and neo-NERV, if only for the big boost in morale it would convey.

Now, I don't think that the details of what exactly powers the Wunder are public knowledge, better the average joe not know that one of the things able to destroy the world is used.

As for N4I, what the people will believe is simple : SEELE tried to launch another Impact, and WILLE's timely intervention thanks to the now powered AAA Wunder prevented it from happening. Which is true : without Mari to eject Shinji, EVA-13 would had finished the HIP, and without the Wunder, she and Asuka would had never been here in the first place.

If anything that'll make WILLE even bigger heroes, since it's the proof that now they can really bring the fight directly on SEELE and neo-NERV's turf.
Last edited by ElMariachi on Sat May 03, 2014 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Amitch1991 » Sat May 03, 2014 10:26 am

As much as i love Misato and Ritsuko, i have to admit i'll be loyal to NERV until the end :)
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Postby El Squibbonator » Fri May 23, 2014 3:32 pm

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:What I find interesting in this debate is the future for WILLE.

If public knowledge begins to spread that WILLE had acquired Unit-01 and are using to power the AAA WUNDER and had been found out that WILLE had been at the epicentre of N4I, will humanity in general begin to believe that WILLE had started it, and their (WILLEs) intentions may not be what WILLE had disclosed publicly?


That's assuming, of course, that there IS a public in the first place.
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Postby Firetrout » Fri May 23, 2014 5:12 pm

View Original PostEl Squibbonator wrote:That's assuming, of course, that there IS a public in the first place.



There probably is, and they all work for WILLE

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Postby Dima » Sat May 24, 2014 6:28 am

SIEG ZEON!!!!! erm i mean Neo-NERV. Dont know why but in the mecha gerne i am usually with the ''bad'' guys.

Though ZEON is definitely the good side. Stupid federation denies their freedom and wants to control everything. :irked:
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Postby Chroma » Sat May 24, 2014 10:46 am

At this point, I don't think we know enough about Neo-Nerv for anyone to consider "siding" with them. All of our information is "Gendo is meaner" and "Let's release spears!".

At least, with Wille, we know their objectives and kinda trust their operatives. I guess I'd put myself squarely in the Wille team, although it makes sense to be watchful of them as well, and not entirely trusting.
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Postby Sachi » Sat May 24, 2014 10:49 am

View Original PostChroma wrote:All of our information is "Gendo is a badass" and "you had me at hello".

Fixed to reflect how I see it. :wink:
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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Wed May 28, 2014 12:01 am

Where Shinji goes I follow. I do not care as long as he makes the decision.

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Postby Rosenakahara » Fri May 30, 2014 6:19 am

hmmmn tang, or a tsundere and a girl with big boobs who is also a megane........welp time to learn the layout of the wunder
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri May 30, 2014 6:31 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:But they weren't shallow, shortsighted, petty, or spiteful. They were just brusque on the one hand and bushwhacked by ReiQ on the other. The bomb collar was heavy-handed, but given the stakes . . . :shrug:


Even then, the DSS Choker had a whole host of observational functions. The bomb was a last resort, but they had no intentions of letting him back into the Eva and Unit 01 refused to work for him anyway, so there was no reason for it to ever activate if things had gone according to plan. Not the nicest course of action, to be sure, but it's not like they were sitting around with a finger on the trigger, just waiting for an excuse to blow him up. It's not that different than the Evas or even NERV HQ being equipped with self-destruct mechanism, really. Any of those will kill the people involved, but the DSS Choker seems more cruel because so much attention has been drawn to that feature.

It really bugs me when people say Wille wouldn't tell Shinji anything. They tried. In fact, Misato and Ritsuko were in the middle of debriefing him when Rei came blasting through the wall and he completely shut them out. I do think they screwed up by letting Asuka into the room before they'd finished. Seeing her look exactly the same after 14 years had allegedly elapsed would trigger serious skepticism in anyone.

I'm firmly in the pro-Wille camp here. It seems pretty obvious that we're supposed to see them as the "bad guys" and distrust them because that's how Shinji views the situation, but their actions and later revelations just don't bear out that conclusion. If anyone's using him and not being on the up-and-up, it's Neo-NERV and Kaworu.

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Postby Rosenakahara » Fri May 30, 2014 6:46 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Even then, the DSS Choker had a whole host of observational functions. The bomb was a last resort, but they had no intentions of letting him back into the Eva and Unit 01 refused to work for him anyway, so there was no reason for it to ever activate if things had gone according to plan. Not the nicest course of action, to be sure, but it's not like they were sitting around with a finger on the trigger, just waiting for an excuse to blow him up. It's not that different than the Evas or even NERV HQ being equipped with self-destruct mechanism, really. Any of those will kill the people involved, but the DSS Choker seems more cruel because so much attention has been drawn to that feature.

It really bugs me when people say Wille wouldn't tell Shinji anything. They tried. In fact, Misato and Ritsuko were in the middle of debriefing him when Rei came blasting through the wall and he completely shut them out. I do think they screwed up by letting Asuka into the room before they'd finished. Seeing her look exactly the same after 14 years had allegedly elapsed would trigger serious skepticism in anyone.

I'm firmly in the pro-Wille camp here. It seems pretty obvious that we're supposed to see them as the "bad guys" and distrust them because that's how Shinji views the situation, but their actions and later revelations just don't bear out that conclusion. If anyone's using him and not being on the up-and-up, it's Neo-NERV and Kaworu.

actually Kaworu was legitimately prepared to betray seele and nerv to help Shinji because he loved him (no not romantically, damn yaoi fangirls), gendo just tricked our angel friend and had put Shinji in a state of mind where he wasnt going to listen so Kaworu couldnt do anything (plus gendo also rigged unit 13 to stop responding to Kaworu after a certain emotional state in Shinji)
"She had better march back here and try again! I only send people off on my terms! ...Or in a casket."
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Postby BlueBasilisk » Fri May 30, 2014 7:18 pm

View Original PostRosenakahara wrote:actually Kaworu was legitimately prepared to betray seele and nerv to help Shinji because he loved him (no not romantically, damn yaoi fangirls), gendo just tricked our angel friend and had put Shinji in a state of mind where he wasnt going to listen so Kaworu couldnt do anything (plus gendo also rigged unit 13 to stop responding to Kaworu after a certain emotional state in Shinji)


Shinji disconnected Kaworu from Eva 13's controls and locked him out. That's why it stopped responding. I was referring to this:
SPOILER: Show
Image

We saw the state of the Geofront and the moon after Unit 01 shut down. We saw what happened to Lilith with the 12th Angel, with one missing Angel between. Unless Unit 01 was reactivated between the end of 2.22 and its trip to space, the evidence doesn't match Kaworu's claim. He's misleading Shinji for some reason. Awfully suspicious when you consider HIS Evangelion is still at the epicenter.

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri May 30, 2014 7:21 pm

^
Maybe Kaworu is telling the truth, we still don't know who BM 01 and 02 are but I have my suspicions.
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Postby Rosenakahara » Fri May 30, 2014 7:27 pm

View Original PostBlueBasilisk wrote:Shinji disconnected Kaworu from Eva 13's controls and locked him out. That's why it stopped responding. I was referring to this:
SPOILER: Show

We saw the state of the Geofront and the moon after Unit 01 shut down. We saw what happened to Lilith with the 12th Angel, with one missing Angel between. Unless Unit 01 was reactivated between the end of 2.22 and its trip to space, the evidence doesn't match Kaworu's claim. He's misleading Shinji for some reason. Awfully suspicious when you consider HIS Evangelion is still at the epicenter.

Kaworu doesnt lie.
this simple fact has persisted throughout the series, he might not tell the whole truth but i do not remember him ever once lying, that and he DOES want Shinji to be happy in the end but following this fact when Shinji asked him what happened to the world kaworu had to tell the truth, that is why he asked him first if he really wanted to know, he was concerned about him, hell you could see he didnt like having to tell Shinji all this in that scene just by his facial expression.
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What is going on is a concerted effort from anti-progressives to silence anyone who disagrees with them.-Bagheera 2016
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Postby Bagheera » Fri May 30, 2014 8:23 pm

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:^
Maybe Kaworu is telling the truth, we still don't know who BM 01 and 02 are but I have my suspicions.


There is no BM 01 or BM 02. Shinji is BM 03 because he's the Third Child, simple as that.
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri May 30, 2014 8:24 pm

View Original PostRosenakahara wrote:Kaworu doesnt lie.
this simple fact has persisted throughout the series, he might not tell the whole truth but i do not remember him ever once lying,

Well, omitting key facts and twisting the meaning of one words (Kaworu's phrase to Shinji was "It was all initiated by you." which could be interpreted in many ways : Shinji's N3I could had been the first step in a chain of events that led to the 12th Angel reaching Lilith and triggering a true Third Impact) in order to obtain a desired result is close to being the same thing as lying.
It's clear that there's something fishy with his explanation, and although it's clear that he really cared for Shinji and genuinely wanted his happiness, I think that he wasn't all white and saintly as many people think, and might very well learned and resigned himself to subtly manipulate Shinji to make him accept to pilot with him, for Shinji's own sake and happiness of course (or at least what Kaworu thought was his happiness)

I created a thread about my theory on Kaworu's intentions in Rebuild here, if you want to talk more about it. (shameless self-promotion)
Last edited by ElMariachi on Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Fri May 30, 2014 8:24 pm

@ Baggy

Okay Good Sir :asuka_thumbsup:
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