^
Well then even more the reason to not do it again, because at this point it will be clear that killing Shinji is really the only way to mankind safe!

I split the 'scush about how Mari and Asuka got into Lilith's chamber to its own thread.

When 13 activates, it makes the exact same sound as when Asuka is in space to recover the tesseract and it launches it's attack(the "scream" sound). There is a possibility that 01 is in 13. The tesseract in space apparently only held core material, anyways; this could have been extracted by Gendou and tossed into 13. The body of 13 could have been an ADAM, while the head could have been something else; the Nez key was headless and the head of Lilith was shaped as Yui.

Just an idea that sprang to mind here: Kaworu was needed for entry into Lilith's chamber, but after that, Shinji was the only one necessary. That's why the Nez key has a very symmetrical design but displays only a body without the head. For that part of things, Shinji and Kaworu were needed.

They descended accordingly, however, upon entering Lilith's chamber, Kaworu noticed Lilith was headless. At this point, Shinji was the only one that was needed. This was a detail hidden from both Shinji and Kaworu; neither of them saw Yui's head in a different area with Gendou. Neither of them saw the Nez key. They only saw a headless Lilith. This part was planned by Gendou to be between Shinji and Yui, which was seen when Shinji cut out Kaworu and pulled the spears.

^ unitM: what? I didn't quite understand everything you just said, but let me try to address the things I did catch.

unitM wrote:When 13 activates, it makes the exact same sound as when Asuka is in space to recover the tesseract and it launches it's attack(the "scream" sound). There is a possibility that 01 is in 13.The tesseract in space apparently only held core material, anyways; this could have been extracted by Gendou and tossed into 13.

The use of a similar sound effect is not a basis for a claim like this. Besides, Wille recovered Unit-01 to use as the main engine for the Wunder; they would not claim this if they only found core material in the tesseract (and apparently Shinji; why would he be there if it wasn't also where Unit-01 was stored?)

Just an idea that sprang to mind here: Kaworu was needed for entry into Lilith's chamber, but after that, Shinji was the only one necessary.

Unit-13 specifically was needed in order to break the seal into Lilith's chamber; this is explicitly stated. Why should we believe otherwise?

They descended accordingly, however, upon entering Lilith's chamber, Kaworu noticed Lilith was headless. At this point, Shinji was the only one that was needed. This was a detail hidden from both Shinji and Kaworu; neither of them saw Yui's head in a different area with Gendou. Neither of them saw the Nez key. They only saw a headless Lilith. This part was planned by Gendou to be between Shinji and Yui, which was seen when Shinji cut out Kaworu and pulled the spears.

What Kaworu noticed was the spears; I'm sure it was obvious to both of them that Lilith is headless.

You mention the Key of Nebuchadnezzar a lot, however Gendo hasn't used it yet; he's seen multiple times with the briefcase containing the Key throughout Q. Unless he's just carrying around an empty briefcase, the Key has yet to reveal its importance.

If debated, point it out.

Kaworu seems to have quite a bit of knowledge about EVA-13 regarding it's control system, its plug system and not to mention the danger it poses once it wields the spears. On top of that, when he puts on the DSS Choker he states to Shinji, "I'll take the risk of an Awakening", or something along that line.

Question I'm posting is, did Kaworu help secure an ADAM and help in the design of EVA-13?

^
It's possible, after all nothing would had prevented him to help neo-NERV in EVA-13's conception between two piano sessions, especially since EVA-13 is pivotal in his plan to make Shinji happy.

It's also possible that he helped in Mark.06's construction in the Moon back in 2.0. That's it of course if SEELE doesn't already know everything there's to know thanks to the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls.

I really found interesting this theory that he had a more active role in SEELE and neo-NERV's plan, instead of staying completely passive, waiting on the Moon or only playing piano while at neo-NERV, that would give more "consistence" to his character, show that he has his own agenda and make him feel less like a mere plot device here only to make Shinji happy and bring him to the spears.

ElMariachi wrote:^
It's possible, after all nothing would had prevented him to help neo-NERV in EVA-13's conception between two piano sessions, especially since EVA-13 is pivotal in his plan to make Shinji happy.

It's also possible that he helped in Mark.06's construction in the Moon back in 2.0. That's it of course if SEELE doesn't already know everything there's to know thanks to the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls.

I really found interesting this theory that he had a more active role in SEELE and neo-NERV's plan, instead of staying completely passive, waiting on the Moon or only playing piano while at neo-NERV, that would give more "consistence" to his character, show that he has his own agenda and make him feel less like a mere plot device here only to make Shinji happy and bring him to the spears.

I think that EVA-13's GUI was dead give away. The musical notation floating around the entry plugs is not exactly a stock standard interface.

As for the Mark.06, no doubt, he was literally overseeing it's construction.

^
The musical notation, you mean the lines forming an infinity symbol behind their pilot seat? I never thought of it, it's true that they look likes the lines of a music sheet, maybe Kaworu designed it to put Shinji on a more familiar environment for when they will "synchronize their rhythm" to break the seal.
That would mean that Kaworu had planned to use piano to train Shinji on synchronization since a long time, even before Shinji is retrieved from orbit.
The secretive little bastard!

The sound itself isn't a basis for a theory, correct, but it can be an indication. Both 13 and the tesseract have similar technologies and they're both activated around Asuka through Shinji. Kaworu says something along the lines of "the beginning and the end are the same." Besides, NERV's(?) logo is sprayed on the tesseract and we're all fairly certain that they were involved with 13's activation.

^
And what's your point in all of this?

That 13 is connected to 01.

Connected in what?
I don't think that neo-NERV's logo on the tesseract is any evidence that both machines are connected beside the fact that both were build by NERV.

You're right, that would not be very strong evidence. Truth is, I don't have very much strong evidence. However, I did suggest a number of other things.

13's activation sound after it chomps down on the angel cherry is the same sound produced when Asuka is attacked by the tesseract defense system at the beginning of Q. The tesseract not only contained Shinji but also 01 and possibly Rei.

The tesseract's attack and 13 also express similar AT field oddities. Asuka isn't even able to produce an AT field against the tesseract's attack. Similarly, 13 doesn't possess an AT field either, but for a currently-unexplained reason, doesn't need one. Stuff just kinda phases through it.

Lastly, Asuka explicitly notes that the tesseract's defense mechanism has a reflective coating. This shiny coating is similar to 13's light form when it activates.

To restate, these aren't exactly cause-effect relationships but they may be an indication of something greater.

unitM wrote:That 13 is connected to 01.

Maybe not to 01, but maybe in some way to the Eva Code 4B that was planted on the tesseract (although that opens a whole new can of worms)?

I don't think Eva-13 has a field-reflective coating, though; neither Asuka nor Mari show any sign that they're unable to deploy their Evas' AT Fields (rather, it is Eva-13 who has no AT Field).

I'd also note that it's inaccurate to say that Eva-13 can phase through stuff; this only seems to apply to Anti-AT Field ammo, which for some reason disappears from existence before it can touch the Eva. The Eva still gets nose-rammed by the Wunder, which then seems to try and contain Eva-13 in its ATF (as well as using its ATF to bounce laser shots onto Eva-13) so it doesn't seem to have any innate ATF-blocking properties. The Eva relies on its RS Hopper units for protection and, failing that, on its durability.

unitM wrote:13's activation sound after it chomps down on the angel cherry is the same sound produced when Asuka is attacked by the tesseract defense system at the beginning of Q. The tesseract not only contained Shinji but also 01 and possibly Rei.

Except that reusing sounds is a common practice of the studio, an homage to the practices of old mecha anime IIRC. So having two machines making the same sound can't be used as evidence of a connection.

unitM wrote:The tesseract's attack and 13 also express similar AT field oddities. Asuka isn't even able to produce an AT field against the tesseract's attack.

She was raising an AT Field, but it was useless since the Mark.04 (and not the tesseract itself) was using concentrated light against it, the only way to protect against it is to have a very heavy armor or raise an AT FIeld so strong that it also stops light, and only Sahaquiel in 2.0 was shown being able to do that.

unitM wrote:Similarly, 13 doesn't possess an AT field either, but for a currently-unexplained reason, doesn't need one. Stuff just kinda phases through it.

Again, Eva-02 does have an AT Field, you can see her raising it against the very first NS in 3.0 (you even see it drilling through it) and later she raises another one just before starting to melt through the Wunder 's main engine to connect the igniter, she even say "Deploy A.T. Field." and we see it appearing in front of her.

EVA-13 doesn't have an AT Field because it's one of the four ADAMs, and somehow those dudes can't generate an AT Field, which sucks for Mari because the special anti-AT Field bullet she just loaded in her sniper rifle are apparently useless on Evas which don't have an AT Field.

unitM wrote:Lastly, Asuka explicitly notes that the tesseract's defense mechanism has a reflective coating. This shiny coating is similar to 13's light form when it activates.

The reflective coating are the mirror inside the Mark.04's "tentacles", and it's what it uses to reflect the light of the sun and concentrate it right on EVA-02 to fry it, thinks of it as a weaponized version of the magnifier used to fry ants. It has nothing to do with EVA-13's white form, which was pure generated energy.


In the end, the only confirmed connection we can make between Units 01 and 13 is that both were built by NERV, and later reached the Awakened state.

@Shino I never said it had reflective coating, I said it looks like it does. When 13 activates, it develops a very shiny and glowing sheen.

4B is also a consideration, yes. Honestly, if we're going to say that 01 was in the tesseract and that both the tesseract and 13 were under NERV's control, it's safe to say that both 13 and the tesseract defense system(as well as other NERV productions) utilized similar technologies. 13's hopper drones had something we had not yet witnessed in a smaller device - AT field projection and piercing capabilities - while 4B was able to bypass Asuka's AT field altogether(I think a comment was made on this).

The Wunder rams 13 after activation. It's important to note that before 13 was activated, it was a much different beast.

@ElMar With everything you said taken to account, you still really don't add anything new to what I said. Nowhere did I state 02 was prevented from the activation of an AT field. I said 02 can't produce one against the tesseract's attack, which is in line with what you said. Reused sounds may be common in the series but that does not discount the possibility of them being meaninful. Lastly, we don't know what the tesseract's defense mechanism operated on. It isn't explained. Claiming that they're solar-powered is baseless, in the same way that claiming 13 as an ADAM and the tesseract are not connected is.

unitM wrote:Lastly, we don't know what the tesseract's defense mechanism operated on. It isn't explained. Claiming that they're solar-powered is baseless, in the same way that claiming 13 as an ADAM and the tesseract are not connected is.

I'm not saying that the tesseract is solar-powered, that thing is just a big box floating in orbit, all the defense mechanisms consisted on a bunch of Mark.04A and one Mark.04B hidden in one of the "cube" at the tesseract side, the box itself doesn't have any mechanism.
What's solar-powered is the weapon the Mark.04B uses, the big tendrils with mirrors on one side that reflected the light to throw it at EVA-02.


And those points are explicitly stated in the movie.

The Mark.04B :

00:05:25 {Woman} The interfering object is Mk. 04B.
00:05:27 {Woman} It is deploying a field-reflective coating.

EVA-13 being an ADAM :

01:18:09 {Mari} Guess it's Awakened...
01:18:12 {Mari} It's one of the surviving Adams!

And I still don't see what kind of connection you want to make between 01 and 13. That they both are Evangelions, that they were built by NERV, that both Awakened and thus have similar powers? Yes, we learned all of that in the movie already.

"Reflective coating" and "reflective coating that operates as a weapon by magnifying sun radiation(or whatever you come up with)" are two different things. The former is what we're told. The latter is a jump to conclusions; we aren't told how the reflective coating operates. We don't know if it reflects energy from the sun or an AT field or anything. We're merely told it's reflective coating. Anything further is not fact. The deployment of a field-reflective coating does not mean that 04.A is solar powered, nor does it mean we know very much about it at all. What you're saying is, as previously stated, baseless.

13's colour scheme is also tremendously similar to that of 01's.The eyes even shift from yellow to red, both situations we've seen come out of 01 as well.

I'm thinking either BM 1 or 2 is inside Unit 13, maybe both.

I think it'd be an awesome answer to the Shinji or Unit 13 in control thread too, Shinji was in control no matter what.

Has anyone already suggested that Unit 13 is a genetically modified clone of Unit 01?

unitM: again, this question needs to be raised: what is the point in your theory? If there is a connection between Unit-01 and Unit-13, then what is it and why is it important? The bit about "the beginning and the end being one and the same" sounds nice, but it doesn't hold under scrutiny. Unit-01 and 13 are clearly distinct from each other in every aspect except for appearance; 01 has an AT Field, whereas 13 doesn't because it an Adam (Mark.09 probably doesn't have one either); and finally, Unit-01 isn't even the beginning of anything (Unit-00 is the first Eva) and 01 is probably quite unique on its own by being the progeny of Lilith as in the original series (though this is still up in the air). The "beginning/end" talking point only makes sense when applied to Kaworu as an Angel and how Gendo's betrayal reassigned Kaworu from 1st to 13th.

I'm just having trouble following your logic on the subject because all you seem to be doing is deflecting the points of others rather than clearly establishing what your own actual position is.

Also, reflective coating implies reflecting is involved, whereas Unit-13 when awakened was producing its own light. These two things are not comparable; they are actually very different.

ChaddyManPrime wrote:Has anyone already suggested that Unit 13 is a genetically modified clone of Unit 01?

No, because it's already established that 13 is an Adam. Case closed.