Missing Characters in 3.0 & Beyond [split]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:36 pm

Sometimes, I can't tell if you're being an excellent comedian or if this is the way your brain is actually wired.

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:43 am

Chuckman raises a good point though : the people in the WILLE fleet can't be the only humans left, there must be settlements left around the world, and big ones even, to supply the Wunder fleet with all their part for the AAA Wunder, anti-AT field rail-gun ammo, equipment for the Evas... and I'm not even talking about the more mundane supplies like food, uniforms, medical supplies, missiles, fuel for the ships and aircrafts (they mention that they have fighter jet keeping an eye for incoming enemies), and most important, the coffee! and booze...
All of this while assuring the inhabitants' security against possible attacks of Nemesis Series.

Sakura was supposed to be in Tokyo-3 too when N3I happened, and she certainly wasn't in NERV HQ but in a civilian bunker, yet she's alive and kicking in Q, so it's perfectly possible that Toji, Kensuke, Hikari and Pen² survived N3I.

But in Toji's case, the fact that his shirt ended inside NERV HQ proper strongly imply that he was involved with the organization at some point, he was probably recruited as an Eva pilot to replace the ones who disappeared (I'm ready to bet that he piloted the missing EVA-07)

Although revealing that Toji was actually alive would kill the shock of the scene where Shinji notice the tag on the shirt, we can't rule out the possibility that he did survived the Angel War and NERV's split. For all we know he's still an Eva pilot, assigned to the protection of an important WILLE base or Lilin settlement with his trusted Unit 07, maybe even being the only physically adult pilot who was never cursed by never having to go into dangerous plug depths! (to Asuka's supreme annoyance!)
Well, if he's alive, that would explain why Sakura is so friendly : Toji know very well Shinji, and know that he would had never willingly set an Impact, even if it's to save a friend, and probably told it to her sister, who then took the opportunity of Shinji's surprise return to volunteer to be assigned to him and finally get to know that guy her big brother held in so high esteem. (note that it can work even if Toji died during the time skip)

So, back in topic, if Sakura survived, then Kensuke, Toji and Hikari could had survived too, and so Pen² could had survived too. As for why we didn't saw Pen² in 3.0, it's very simple : a penguin has no place in a military place, Misato never brought Pen² in NERV HQ, so why should she brought him in the Wunder?
Last edited by ElMariachi on Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:28 am

At this point, it's clear that the topic has evolved in the direction of being about the characters who don't appear in Q, so rather than hoping that everyone brings it back around to Pen Pen I'm just going to change the title. I made the title as specific as I did precisely to allow room for it to evolve in either of its constituent directions: towards the aspect of Pen Pen, or the aspect of "(or lack thereof" in 3.0 & Beyond".

I'm glad I engineered it that way, because I almost made the topic title simply "Pen Pen" when I made it.

EDIT: Done.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:20 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Chuckman raises a good point though : the people in the WILLE fleet can't be the only human left, there must be settlements left around the world, big ones even to supply the Wunder fleet with all their part for the AAA Wunder, anti-AT field rail-gun ammo, equipment for the Evas... and I'm not even talking about the more mundane supplies like food, uniforms, medical supplies, missiles, fuel for the ships and aircrafts (they mention that they have fighter jet keeping an eye for incoming enemies), and most important, the coffee! and booze...


You forgot to mention the dual aerospace launch pads that are required to launch two Evangelion units into space on three-stage rockets. And the three-stage rockets.

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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:33 am

^
Yes, there's that too. Well, especially that : aerospace technologies are among the most expensive of the world, behind Eva technology in this world, so WILLE surely needed a lot of resources and the R&D to launch Units 02 and 08 in orbit.
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Postby wiser3754 » Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:52 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
Yes, there's that too. Well, especially that : aerospace technologies are among the most expensive of the world, behind Eva technology in this world, so WILLE surely needed a lot of resources and the R&D to launch Units 02 and 08 in orbit.


Considering all the points about resources being brought up in this post it's strangely accurate that after 14 years so many resources to fuel WILLE's war effort remains intact, and considering all of it was salvaged from a supposedly run away Third Impact.

On a more relevant note, would anyone be shocked as Shinji in Final to find people running up to him and claiming they're his former classmates and still very much alive friends had they of course survived N3I?
I watch and speculate.

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:33 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Considering all the points about resources being brought up in this post it's strangely accurate that after 14 years so many resources to fuel WILLE's war effort remains intact, and considering all of it was salvaged from a supposedly run away Third Impact.

That's why I believe that the situation isn't as apocalyptic as what Kaworu implied to Shinji, and that there must be giant Lilin settlements, or even nations, and lots of resources and R&D for WILLE. Just the Wunder escort fleet is as big as half of the entire US Navy! And it's a combined fleet with ships from at least the USA and Russia! Seriously, there's probably close to 100.000 sailors in this fleet!

Add to that the new armors for the Evas, the space jetpacks for the Evas for operation US, the fact everyone has an uniform in perfect condition (and new plugsuits), all the Eva-sized weapons and robot-arms for EVA-02, the railgun ammo for the Wunder's main cannon and shells for the escort fleet canons, the fuel and ammunitions for all these ships and other aircrafts (it's explicitly mentioned that there are fleets of fighter jets patrolling around the fleet to intercept any menace), and the size of the fleet of choppers carrying supplies for the Wunder fleet, and it's impossible that civilization is on the brink of collapse and people reduced to scavenging a la Mad Max or Fallout.
Look at the supply fleet :
SPOILER: Show
Image

Do you imagine the sheer size of the airbase to house and maintain all these choppers?

You simply can't have the logistic to coordinate and maintain such a gigantic organization (or even found said organization!) without various countries worth of material and human support.


View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:On a more relevant note, would anyone be shocked as Shinji in Final to find people running up to him and claiming they're his former classmates and still very much alive friends had they of course survived N3I?

It's definitively possible : if Sakura survived N3I and Third Impact (and she was in Tokyo-3 back then), then others could had survived too.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Sachi » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:29 pm

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:On a more relevant note, would anyone be shocked as Shinji in Final to find people running up to him and claiming they're his former classmates and still very much alive friends had they of course survived N3I?

I think it would be a rather bold statement about depression if something like that were to happen. It would be like saying: even when it seems your entire world has gone to hell with no chance of hope or redemption, things may not always be as bad as they seem; if one simply gives it some time they may find they their original feelings of being irredeemable were actually greatly exaggerated and that there are still things worth living and fighting for.
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Postby Ray » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:54 pm

Personally, I think it would add a depth of true Tragedy to the narrative if Kensuke Touji and Hikari actually were dead. I love the three of them but personally I'd like it if they were to stay dead.

Also I don't want to see them jump on the " hate Impact Boy "Shinji band wagon.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:12 am

^
There come a point were an accumulation of true Tragedy become just tragedy porn, 3.0 straddled the fine line between the two but managed to still be compelling with little touches of hope, even after Kaworu dies (thanks to Asuka deciding to save Shinji's life, Rei Q starting develop a personality and the preview saying that he'll find hope again)

Hammering that those three are dead will make the story fall over Tragedy porn : yes, Tokyo-3 was destroyed, many of the people living there probably died, we got it, no need to add more salt to the wounds, Shinji is already completely numb now.

That's why I think that Sachi is on the right : having at least one of the three being alive, older and possibly with a good post and a family would be a powerful symbol of what Kaworu said, that hope is always present. I think that Shinji will prefer to see them alive, even if they resent him, or else that mean that he's really a totally selfish asshole.

Although I think that it's dead for Toji : his shirt at neo-NERV imply that he got involved with the organization, probably an Eva pilot to replace Shinji or Rei in NERV's roster, and that never ended well for him. Now I can be wrong, and he can show up in FINAL, still piloting his own Eva and assigned to the defense of a big Lilin settlement against raids of Nemesis Series!
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:05 am

I'd argue of the three if any had to still be alive I'd place hopes on Kensuke. Hikari is literally a non-presence in this version of Eva (she's a cameo, plain & simple). If Toji was alive I feel that would rob Sakura of having any interesting traits as a character. Kensuke being alive though would work.

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:45 am

You really think Anno would let Kensuke live an a post-apocaliptic desaster movie as a badass guerilla fighter?

Only in his dreams.

Also I don't want to see them jump on the " hate Impact Boy "Shinji band wagon.

Really, IMHO they, (and possibly Kaji) are dead precisely because they would never turn on Shinji.
Because there's a few things that they, in particular, would/have come to understand.

In any case, they were in the same place during NTI.

If Touji is dead, all of them are.
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Postby pwhodges » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:00 am

Surely the fact of Touji's shirt being in Nerv is a pointer that he did not die at N3I, any more than Misato, Ritsuko and the whole Nerv crew. Maybe he became a pilot after the "loss" of Shinji (and for a while Asuka), and died as a result; maybe not (there are other jobs). But I don't see his possible death as throwing any light on the fate of Hikari and Kensuki. Nor can I find anything in what Sakura says that helps either.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:24 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:I'd argue of the three if any had to still be alive I'd place hopes on Kensuke. Hikari is literally a non-presence in this version of Eva (she's a cameo, plain & simple). If Toji was alive I feel that would rob Sakura of having any interesting traits as a character. Kensuke being alive though would work.

Well, having Hikari alive could serve to make a point of comparison with Asuka, to see how much the curse of Eva and being an Eva pilot ate her life.
Or maybe they stayed in contact and are still good friends hanging out when Asuka is on leave, to show us a softer side of Asuka's character.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:You really think Anno would let Kensuke live an a post-apocaliptic desaster movie as a badass guerilla fighter?

Only in his dreams.

Or he could be a simple technician in one of the ships or bases, or a civilian living and working in one of the settlement.
Not everyone has to be John Rambo to survive the apocalypse, I really doubt that Midori is a "badass guerilla fighter", yet here she is, alive and in good health.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:Really, IMHO they, (and possibly Kaji) are dead precisely because they would never turn on Shinji.
Because there's a few things that they, in particular, would/have come to understand.

In any case, they were in the same place during NTI.

If Touji is dead, all of them are.

Nah, that would be a case of Fate (or Anno as Stillborn would say! :tongue: )just shitting on Shinji's face. The boy needs some moral support, and will never be able to get better if everyone who would never turn on Shinji were dead, just to make the situation even more tragic, as I said to Ray above, that would just make the franchise sank to Tragedy Porn level, where absolutely everything that can go wrong will go wrong for the protagonist, and where he's always with the worst circumstances imaginable.

Sakura was at Tokyo-3 too, and she's alive and kicking, so I don't see why those three couldn't had survived, unless by a freak misfortune the chasm opened by N3I passed through the bunker where they were, but in this case I really doubt that Sakura would be so sympathetic.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Kendrix » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:33 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:
Sakura was at Tokyo-3 too, and she's alive and kicking,



Except she would've been in a shelter underground (we allready know all the NERV personel in the geofront survived) while Touji & co were shown to be on the surface...
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:42 am

^
They were moving toward a shelter, between the last time we saw them and N3I there's a good 20 minutes that pass(maybe more in-universe, there's certainly a time skip between Shinji deciding to come back to EVA-01 and Shinji reaching the cages and joining the fight), more than enough to reach a bunker.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:52 am

We have no idea what the physical nature of an impact is, and so no idea whether or not any bunker would have a protective effect. Anyway, Misato and co were not in a bunker, and survived.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:16 am

^
That's why I'm citing Sakura : she was released from the hospital the day Bardiel attacked, meaning one day before Zeruel's attack and N3I, so she must have been in a bunker with all the other civilians, and she survived, so it's perfectly possible for the Two Stooges and Hikari to have survived too.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby ChaddyManPrime » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:16 pm

All I know is I'm calling bullshit on the ending of 2.0. Misato and Ritsuko are at the fucking epicenter of 3rd Impact and survive while a vast majority of humans are killed outside the blast radius? Bullshit.

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Postby Sachi » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:45 pm

View Original PostChaddyManPrime wrote:All I know is I'm calling bullshit on the ending of 2.0. Misato and Ritsuko are at the fucking epicenter of 3rd Impact and survive while a vast majority of humans are killed outside the blast radius? Bullshit.

This provides more support for the N3I vs 3I argument; what Shinji did at the end of 2.22 must have been different than the event that caused the apocalyptic red earth we end up with in 3.33.
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