[Renamed from "A Loop Theory - How it works?" to make it a place for loop theories. - Monk]
[Thread revival at [url]http://forum.evageeks.org/post/760337/#760337[/url] - Monk]

I've been lurking for a long time, and this would be my first topic.

Before I start, I'd like to clarify that I am not linking NGE to NTE. I'd like to, but I personally believe that it's unlikely they link together. I'd also like to say that though I'd prefer support and develop this theory, criticise any of this if you disagree; all we want to find in the end is answers (no matter how impossible they are to obtain), right?

From the start, a friend and I had this idea based on the concept of Evangelion looping; that Kaworu, at his death, becomes an additional Adam for the next loop of Evangelion, and the new Kaworu for that loop would awaken from the next coffin on the moon (shown in the spoiler). This worked because there were 4 coffins already opened, 1 for each Adam. It seemed like a stretch, but I couldn't find anything that totally just killed this theory, providing this whole loop thing was true.
9 coffins (or more) are on the moon, Kaworu comes out of the fifth because he must serve his purpose in this repeat. Four more are left unopened for the following loops, and the previous coffins were Kaworus from old Evangelion loops that turn into Adams for the next loops.
This would suggest that NTE is set in the fourth loop.


To begin what I found to support this (found by both of us, and some people here), Unit-13 awakens and exceeds its 'pseudo-evolved' state. It holds the two spears of longinus that were found in Lilith's dead corpse. Still holding the spears, it starts rising fast, through the already elevated Terminal Dogma, NERV HQ, remains of second impact, and finally the reverse pyramid:


So the rings for Fourth Impact start to form, everything starts rising toward the center, including the reverse pyramid which appears to stay stationary. Dogma breaks through the ground and looks like a huge screw.


Why does the reverse pyramid appear to be stationary? If you look at the top of it as it rises, you notice lots of little tall pyramids on the top. These connect to the metal chassis that surrounds the white eclipse-looking circle (which you could guess is the Doors of Guf). So it looks like whatever the circle is, is pulling everything into it:


We would see what happens next, but Kaworu stops Fourth Impact by stabbing Unit-13 with the spears. Here's the thing. Mari says "The Doors of Guf still haven't closed!". Then we see Kaworu drifting briefly through what appears to be a white tunnel, and then the Doors of Guf are shown to close. The white tunnel could show that the white circle is actually a tunnel, to where though?


This is what I think completely convinced me; I'd never seen this link being made. Look carefully at this image of Second Impact during 2.0. If you look closely at the center of it, you can make out what appears to be the chassis surrounding the Doors of Guf from 3.0 sticking out, suggesting that Guf leads to where it all began (Second Impact):


During Second impact, 4 Adams appeared, along with more spears:


What this all suggests to me, is that Kaworu is awakened every loop from a coffin by Seele, and is then told about the prophecy (Dead Sea Scrolls), which describe what he has to fulfill. Kaworu later then passes through the Doors of Guf on his own accord in order to 'save' Shinji (probably). Passing through the Doors of Guf leads him into the Second Impact of the next loop or a 'different universe' that branches off Second Impact, at the bottom of the earth (Antarctica) to accompany previous Adams that have stockpiled there over the creation of new universes (loops). So Kaworu in 3.0 would be travelling to the 5th loop, to become the 5th Adam.

The Beginning and the End are one and the same, eh?

In chronological order this time, here's the pictures:


Why would this be saving Shinji? One possibility could be that Kaworu goes into the Doors of Guf to cause Second Impact in a different loop/universe, awakening the Angels to start attacking in there. So each time would be an attempt to delay the destruction of the human race, adding another Adam into Second Impact. Through changing the past, an alternate universe, or 'loop', branches off Second Impact because there is now an extra Adam. Then the wave of Angels come till is happens all again, in a never ending cycle until mankind are simply dead (I presume). It saves Shinji because if Kaworu didn't pass through the Doors of Guf then Third Impact would progress into an End of Evangelion scenario with Human Instrumentality, fulfilling Seele's wish, relieving them of their original sin in the next evolutionary stage ('original sin' being the fact that in First Impact, Lilith's egg hit Earth and wiped out Adam based life (Angels) who were already meant to be living there, and were replaced with humans).
^ That's all very speculative; it's just a suggestion.

There's also a lot that is still left unexplained, like what the Eva's significance in all this is, why the whole of Terminal Dogma is being taken in to Guf, etc. etc.

The pictures of the Kaworutube and 2I are quite interesting; I've not seen them paired in that way before. While I'm reluctant to speculate on this particular topic, you've got something here. Keep at it.

This is actually the best Loop Theory I've seen in a long long time, although there are obviously still a few issues, like where do all the Kaworu bodies come from? How are they all placed on each loops moon beforehand?

But really, what I wanted to say is that I am terrified that when FINAL comes around we actually won't get any answers about Kaworu waking in the coffins and calling Gendo father and the reason he acts the way he does when he's alone. I mean I'm sure like End of Evangelion the answers are there, but it may take years for us to piece it together.

Nice theory altogether. The loop theory is a common thread but everyone provides his own theory and that's what makes it more interesting and different every time.

I can't find anything wrong with your theory except maybe that each of the 4 Adams seems to be different. If Kaworu is becoming an additional Adam every time why there are differences between them and how the first Adam was created if there wasn't Kaworu?

I really don't know if we will get the answer at FINAL about the coffins and Kaworu. Seems to me this is a thing that Anno doesn't intend to explain and the only thing we can do is speculate about it.

Th3Marauder wrote:This is actually the best Loop Theory I've seen in a long long time, although there are obviously still a few issues, like where do all the Kaworu bodies come from? How are they all placed on each loops moon beforehand?

Dima wrote:I can't find anything wrong with your theory except maybe that each of the 4 Adams seems to be different. If Kaworu is becoming an additional Adam every time why there are differences between them and how the first Adam was created if there wasn't Kaworu?

Thank you! I didn't say anything about it but I think the theory covers all this too. In order for there to be an infinite loop between Second Impact and an Impact after (Third, Fourth, Fifth, whatever), everything must have been placed beforehand between First Impact and Second Impact for the first time. Kaworu was created by Seele just like he would have been, but then Kaworu caused the loop in order to keep Shinji happy, creating more Adams and new versions of himself in the following loop that get passed on. Second Impact was already there because of, well, the original contact experiment that the Katsuragi Investigation Team made with Adam in the south pole. It's just that now Kaworu goes back there as another Adam in a following loop forever.

WILLE's goal would be to stop the looping.

About the 4 Adams being different, I suppose the only way I can explain that is by saying that the clones are different each time when they are made. For Adam being created with no Kaworu, I assume that the F.A.R. still existed, as well as the time between F.A.R. and Second Impact initially.

Th3Marauder wrote:But really, what I wanted to say is that I am terrified that when FINAL comes around we actually won't get any answers about Kaworu waking in the coffins and calling Gendo father and the reason he acts the way he does when he's alone. I mean I'm sure like End of Evangelion the answers are there, but it may take years for us to piece it together.

Dima wrote:I really don't know if we will get the answer at FINAL about the coffins and Kaworu. Seems to me this is a thing that Anno doesn't intend to explain and the only thing we can do is speculate about it.

I thought he called him father because either:
- Gendo created him for Seele, which would make sense perhaps because Seele don't know how to clone like Gendo does. So Gendo is Kaworu's father in a sense.
- Since Kaworu doesn't know Gendo's name yet, you could say that Kaworu is relating to how Shinji calls him father. How does he know what Shinji calls him? Well you could also ask how at the end of 1.11 Kaworu even knows who Shinji is ("I'm looking forward to seeing you again Shinji Ikari")

As for getting answers in 4.0, I regained a bit of faith from Anno when I saw the chassis coming out of Second Impact; everything seemed way too convenient for this theory not to be true for me (and a friend), so I actually thought that 4.0 will give out some answers, and not by cryptically implying things that won't make sense unless it undergoes heavy speculative analysis. On the other hand, this is Anno; the same Anno that hid part of the OST in glyphs that briefly popped up on an interface for the DSS choker in 3.0 by having them correspond to piano keys It's impossible to say what 4.0 will be until it comes out, but I won't be surprised if the whole thing just blows over my head like 3.0 did when I first saw it.


Another thing that I believe in is the fact that Kaworu tries to make the world better for Shinji every time, and saves him in the end if he messes up by leaving him and trying again on another Shinji. I think that the piano scene implies this a lot, as if Kaworu is giving Shinji advice that relates to what his ultimate goal is:
Shinji: How can I improve my piano playing?
Kaworu: You don't have to be good at it. Just produce music that feels good.
Shinji: Well, I want to produce music that feels even better. How can I do that?
Kaworu: Practice and more practice. Repeat the same thing over and over again. Keep going until you're happy with it. It's the only way.

A very interesting take in the Time Loop theory, keeping it enclosed inside the Rebuild universe instead of being a continuation of NGE make the evidences you pointed far more solid, congrats on that!

Now assuming that this theory is right, theres are still some questions left unanswered, although the answers could be revealed in FINAL :

- first, why is there 9 coffins(or more off-screen) with body spares for Kaworu placed in the Moon? If it was SEELE who placed them in the first place, then why did they do it? Maybe it's just their creepy version of the Reiquarium in case something happens to Kaworu, because the soul transfer from a body to another must be immediately after the body's death, of the soul disappear, and Kaworu took advantage of it to serve his own objectives... but then why SEELE-01 wasn't surprised to see four Kawocoffins already opened at the end of 1.0?

- second, if Kaworu's objective is to bring Shinji's happiness, then why didn't he turned back the clock when the situation had gone to hell with the 12th Angel, judging by how WILLE treated Shinji, it was guaranteed that he would be in a very shitty situation, so why didn't he started again after Third Impact to prevent such a clusterfuck to happen?
Maybe since he has a limited number of continues, he don't go back in time as long as there's still hope to fix the situation, trying until the situation goes way past the point of being repairable(like a successful Third Impact triggered by an Angel) or if he gets killed(like what happened in Q)

- third, according to that theory, Kaworu already got back in time when he died in Q, and now mankind have to start again and deal with five ADAMs, yet we are still in the same time line, why?

But as I said, these question can find their answers in FINAL.

This is a nice theory. Pretty convincing, and you definitely put a lot of work into it. I guess we'll see what happens in part 4 to find out if you're right. Like others have commented, I'm worried there will be such a dearth of information in part 4, we'll never be able to figure it out completely.

Come to think of it, this theory does add some creepy implications. Gendo has gotten himself a Keel Lorenz-like visor, and Seele don't seem to be quite human this time around. It's almost as though the Gendo in one cycle turns into the unseen Seele 01 in the next cycle, if this theory is correct.

It's an interesting idea, and it's certainly vastly superior to the inane sequel theory that has been peddled since 1.0 came out.

As for 4.0, I'm not sure that it'll be as straightforward as its trailer makes it out to be. There's certainly room for surprises here.

UrsusArctos wrote:Come to think of it, this theory does add some creepy implications. Gendo has gotten himself a Keel Lorenz-like visor, and Seele don't seem to be quite human this time around. It's almost as though the Gendo in one cycle turns into the unseen Seele 01 in the next cycle, if this theory is correct.

Well, that would explain why Kaworu calls Gendo "father" : that's because SEELE-01 is the leader of the organization that gave a Lilin body to Kaworu.
But that would also mean that in the very first timeline, Gendo was the leader of SEELE!
And also that Gendo basically committed a suicide at the end of Q!

Although I wonder how that would fit with the implication that the SEELE monoliths existed since milenia ago.

The creation of the Seele monoliths millenia ago could be chalked up to First Impact, which is never seen or referred to either in Rebuild or NGE.

This is an awesome theory and I prefer it as possible scenario to the God-awful sequel theory that's frequently mentioned here. Who knows, maybe we'll see something like this, if just a bit, incorporated into whatever the hell Anno has planned for us come Final.

All hail the best loop theory, so far!

ElMariachi wrote:- first, why is there 9 coffins(or more off-screen) with body spares for Kaworu placed in the Moon? If it was SEELE who placed them in the first place, then why did they do it? Maybe it's just their creepy version of the Reiquarium in case something happens to Kaworu, because the soul transfer from a body to another must be immediately after the body's death, of the soul disappear, and Kaworu took advantage of it to serve his own objectives... but then why SEELE-01 wasn't surprised to see four Kawocoffins already opened at the end of 1.0

Hmm... Well I honestly don't know. For reference, at the end of 1.0 this is what happens
This strongly implies that SEELE are the ones who put them there, because 01 appears literally the moment he awakens. I don't think that anyone else could actually do this apart from them either. Unsourced, but I remember that the moon was apparently supposed to be the capsule for Lilith's egg and spears, and it crashed instead of landing conventionally and dropping the seed of life off, so it then bounced off Earth and started orbiting it as the moon. So if this is true, I know that it can't have been FAR - The coffins couldn't have survived on it. We don't even know if the FAR exist in NTE actually.

So now, when would they have done it? Well it must have been done outside of the loops (or through some other BS means that we know nothing about yet), so the only thing I can think of is either:
- Some ridiculous tie in where Kaworu created the coffins HIMSELF (not sure how he would go about doing it though, if the only way he can go back or enter a different loop would be to enter the doors of guf again) in order to allow himself more attempts to help Shinji (or a different reason for why he would need himself in different loops)
- Between First Impact and Second Impact, SEELE did it - Still don't know why, but if this theory was true, then 4.0 would probably reveal the answer (I hope)

But anyone's guess is as good as mine

ElMariachi wrote:- second, if Kaworu's objective is to bring Shinji's happiness, then why didn't he turned back the clock when the situation had gone to hell with the 12th Angel, judging by how WILLE treated Shinji, it was guaranteed that he would be in a very shitty situation, so why didn't he started again after Third Impact to prevent such a clusterfuck to happen?
Maybe since he has a limited number of continues, he don't go back in time as long as there's still hope to fix the situation, trying until the situation goes way past the point of being repairable(like a successful Third Impact triggered by an Angel) or if he gets killed(like what happened in Q)

ElMariachi wrote:- third, according to that theory, Kaworu already got back in time when he died in Q, and now mankind have to start again and deal with five ADAMs, yet we are still in the same time line, why?

[s]Actually, I don't think he wouldn't have gone back in time as such; by 'loop' I kind of mean another universe that branches off the original. I find it really hard to picture all of this, but, after Kaworu's journey to loop 5 at the end of 3.0, the world would just keep going - but a different loop is created elsewhere with 5 Adams because of the very fact a change has been made in the past Of course, this is assuming that if a change happens in the past, an alternative universe does branch off like this. So there would be lots of branches off Second Impact, each starting with different numbers of Adams.[/s] Followed up: [url]http://forum.evageeks.org/post/705108/A-Loop-Theory-How-it-works/#705108[/url]

UrsusArctos wrote:The creation of the Seele monoliths millenia ago could be chalked up to First Impact, which is never seen or referred to either in Rebuild or NGE.

In his farewell speech, Gendo said that the SEELE monoliths have the FoK, implying that they originally were simple Lilins.
Well, my personal theory (which is more fanfiction at this point) is that milenia ago, a bunch of shamans tumbled upon FAR technology and/or were contacted by Lilith to find said technology, which gave them the knowledge to transfer their souls into semi-organic monoliths that made them virtually immortal and probably granted them some nifty powers like appearing wherever they wanted(seen at the end of 1.0 when SEELE-01 appeared in the Moon to talk to Kaworu) and they used these newfound powers to found and shape human civilizations around the world with the objective to reach a level of technology enough to fight against the offspring of the ADAMs, the Angels, so they could have the way clear for the HIP.

After all, SEELE repetitively mentioned a covenant they made with Lilith, which included the destruction of the Angels and her resurrection. Which also adds very sinister implications about Lilith in NTE, especially if Rei possesses her soul like in NGE.

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Koritsuyuutsu wrote:Unsourced, but I remember that the moon was apparently supposed to be the capsule for Lilith's egg and spears, and it crashed instead of landing conventionally and dropping the seed of life off, so it then bounced off Earth and started orbiting it as the moon. So if this is true, I know that it can't have been FAR - The coffins couldn't have survived on it. We don't even know if the FAR exist in NTE actually.

If the NGE lore about the FAR still holds true for NTE, then the big Moon is supposed to crash on the planet and be absorbed by it, the only thing remaining being the Black/White Moon inside. The "landing" happened perfectly for the White Moon(where ADAM was), but not for the White Moon : it's carrier Moon collided on Earth at the wrong angle, which made it bounce against it and being trapped on orbit by the planet's gravity, as well as drop the Black Moon in what is now the Hakone region, and somehow also destroyed Lilith's spear.

Koritsuyuutsu wrote:Actually, I don't think he wouldn't have gone back in time as such; by 'loop' I kind of mean another universe that branches off the original. I find it really hard to picture all of this, but, after Kaworu's journey to loop 5 at the end of 3.0, the world would just keep going - but a different loop is created elsewhere with 5 Adams because of the very fact a change has been made in the past Of course, this is assuming that if a change happens in the past, an alternative universe does branch off like this. So there would be lots of branches off Second Impact, each starting with different numbers of Adams.

But then, if Kaworu is traveling into another dimension, why would the number of coffins follow through, wouldn't he be back at the first coffin since he's on a new universe?
The time loop seems to make more sense.

Koritsuyuutsu wrote:What are the 4 long shadows? The Adams? This was in the 3.0 preview, which had other things that would have happened during the timeskip. Like Gendo and Fuyuutsuki fleeing with large bags and a donkey (implying some sort of rebellion against NERV? This would explain how WILLE even came to be), the fact that Mk. 06 descended into Dogma implies the creation of the real Third Impact.

According to the storyboard in the 2.0 CRC, those four shadows are supposed to be the four Reis Mari is seen talking with, these ones :

Also, there are some hints in Q that at least some of the events of the preview really happened, like Mark.06 being present in Lilith's Chamber, and the preview Rei's sweater being present in a box next to Rei Q's bunk.

Koritsuyuutsu wrote:What might have happened is Kaworu created another Third Impact according to SEELE's scenario instead of whatever was happening at the end of 2.0 - and since Shinji is clueless, Kaworu just keeps it a secret that he's the one who did Third Impact in order to continue it in Fourth Impact (though that kind of defeats the fact that it's Fourth Impact). We know that SEELE's version of Impact involves the whole of Dogma and NERV rising up through the Doors of Guf, because NERV HQ and Dogma have already risen as we see them in 3.0.

Well, I always thought that Kaworu was hiding something from Shinji in Q, since his explanations about Third Impact and Shinji's responsibility in it doesn't fit with what we saw at the end of 2.0.
As for what does that mean and why did he do it, I hope that we'll get some answers in FINAL.

ElMariachi wrote:If the NGE lore about the FAR still holds true for NTE, then the big Moon is supposed to crash on the planet and be absorbed by it, the only thing remaining being the Black/White Moon inside. The "landing" happened perfectly for the White Moon(where ADAM was), but not for the White Moon : it's carrier Moon collided on Earth at the wrong angle, which made it bounce against it and being trapped on orbit by the planet's gravity, as well as drop the Black Moon in what is now the Hakone region, and somehow also destroyed Lilith's spear.

Thanks for the clarification

ElMariachi wrote:But then, if Kaworu is traveling into another dimension, why would the number of coffins follow through, would he be back at the first coffin since he's on a new universe?The time loop seems to make more sense.
According to the storyboard in the 2.0 CRC, those four shadows are supposed to be the four Reis Mari is seen talking with.
Also, there are some hints in Q that at least some of the events of the preview really happened, like Mark.06 being present in Lilith's Chamber, and the Rei's episode AU sweater being present in a box next to Rei Q's bunk.

As for the first ... Very good point I completely looked over that. I guess the problem still stands then. And the second, had no idea. I suppose it doesn't mean too much to this theory then.

About the "father" line, I'm just pointing this out for those who weren't here for 2.0 discussion:

Ornette wrote:I get the impression that it's not meant to indicate that Gendo is his father so much that he thinks he's close to Shinji. In Japanese, it's common for a friend to call his friend's father "otou-san". It's a level of familiarity, kind of like honorifics and calling an older friend "onee-san" or "onii-san" (honorifics may vary). Whether that familiarity actually exists between Gendo and Kaworu is debatable, which could mean that Kaworu was being tongue-and-cheek about it (implying a familiarity when clearly none exists).

Rei IV wrote:I prefer it as possible scenario to the God-awful sequel theory that's frequently mentioned here.

That's about all I have to say for it so far. Not really wild about it but better than the former.

I'm not really wild about it, but I admit that this Impact Loop Theory is actually feasible, unlike Sequel Theory which is inane, stupid and doesn't have a shred of evidence going in its favor.

Koritsu, you've found a great way to make your presence known. This is the best that I've ever seen a timeloop theory received by the community.

UrsusArctos wrote:As for 4.0, I'm not sure that it'll be as straightforward as its trailer makes it out to be. There's certainly room for surprises here.

Just going back to that line, I'm sure that FINAL will be much straightforward than NGE and EoE, simply because Rebuild as a whole was much more straightforward than the original : while there are still a lot of metaphors and religious imagery surrounding the mysteries, when something is explained, it's clearly and concisely explained without any weird metaphor or philosophizing :

- Misato clearly says that the Giant in Central Dogma is Lilith, 2nd Angel and the origin of life on Earth(and thus mankind's "mother") and that if an Angel reach her it'll cause Third Impact and everyone dies,

- Kaworu clearly explains what is the HIP : the destruction of the human race to transform them into a new race of being with the Fruit of Life,

- Fuyutsuki clearly states that Yui became part of EVA-01 when she made the Contact Experiment when Shinji was little and is still inside it, that Rei is a clone made from Yui, and that she too is trapped inside EVA-01.

So if the time loop theory is true, I'm sure that it'll be clearly and concisely said and explained, probably by Kaworu himself via the way he said that he and Shinji would meet again.


Also, there are a lot of unanswered questions that will need to be answered so we could understand what the hell is going on, such as what is the Key of N., what are Gendo's true plans, what exactly happened 14 years ago with Mark.06, the 12th Angel and Lilith and were does Shinji's responsibility lies in this clusterfuck that transformed Tokyo-3(and maybe the world) into Lovecraftland, how mankind intends to rebuild the world once the war is over(assuming the world has been destroyed)... there simply won't be enough time to treat every question and make them digestible for the audience if FINAL goes all cryptic and abstract like in EoTV and EoE.