Americans mock perfect characters and call them Mary Sues, unless they pull it off, like Indiana Jones or James Bond (and the newest incarnation of James Bond is pretty messed up. Yeah Bond isn't an American thing but he's archetypal here)

The main source of invincible perfect dudes in American pop culture is airport novels like Jack Reacher and... Jack Ryan. Apparently a lot of them are named Jack.

All the main characters of the popular stuff I'm familiar with are deeply flawed and psychological damaged people.

Shinji catches shit as a "whimp" and a "pussy" for the exact reason I said: He's in a situation he can't handle and that makes people looking for escapism uncomfortable.

Bagheera wrote:Or virtually anyone from DC's Vertigo line (most of which has probably achieved far more success in the U.S. than Eva has), lots of other comics (Suicide Squad, Secret Six, etc), many horror protagonists in all sorts of genres, and on and on and on. It's a niche trope, but it's well-established and reasonably successful. And again, it's just as niche in Japan as it is here. Japan loves their Gokus and Narutos and Ichigos and Lufis, with their Shinjis being a comparatively rare occurrence (except for loltomino, but let's face it, no one ever got into Gundam for Amuro or Camille).

Do you know the amount of time Naruto spends crying over his lost boyfriend?

Sorry you can't compare the goddamn Batman with Shinji. Bruce Wayne is a playboy millionaire that hunts criminals at night with all kinds of awesome gadgets and more importantly he is proactive. As long as a hero tackles his problems head-on he will be liked regardless from where he is from.

Fireball wrote:Sorry you can't compare the goddamn Batman with Shinji. Bruce Wayne is a playboy millionaire that hunts criminals at night with all kinds of awesome gadgets and more importantly he is proactive. As long as a hero tackles his problems head on he will be liked regardless from where he is from.

True. But there's no denying that Bruce is just as fucked in the head as Shinji, if not moreso. I mean, he dresses up in a bat costume to fight crime. That's grade-A loony no matter how you look at it, and he knows it!

Yes, but for all his neuroses he still embodies something immensely macho. Batman isn't known as the guy that cries over his dead parents, he is the guy that socks the Joker on the jaw at the end of the comic.

Fireball wrote:Yes, but for all his neuroses he still embodies something immensely macho. Batman isn't known as the guy that cries over his dead parents, he is the guy that socks the Jocker on the jaw at the end of the comic.

True. I would never think of comparing Shinji to Bruce Wayne, personally, but I would compare him to, say . . . Frodo Baggins.

Fireball wrote:Yes, but for all his neuroses he still embodies something immensely macho. Batman isn't known as the guy that cries over his dead parents, he is the guy that socks the Joker on the jaw at the end of the comic.

Exactly. The "flaws" he has are more or less plot-devices and only represent a very small part of his personality and aren't really recognizable during 90% of the runtime. Aside from that, he's muscular, heroic and generally "the best person on earth".

Fireball wrote:Yes, but for all his neuroses he still embodies something immensely macho. Batman isn't known as the guy that cries over his dead parents, he is the guy that socks the Joker on the jaw at the end of the comic.

Yeah, but Batman is an adult whose story is shown to us years after his traumatic childhood, after he had the time to train and hones his skills, Shinji is just 14 and the traumatic events are happening right now.

I'm sure that if the story of Batman started with he murder of his parents and continued following the years after, Bruce wouldn't be that different from Shinji.
Hell for all we know Shinji in the EoE future is fighting crime in the ruins of the post-3I world trying to rebuild itself, wearing a white costume with twelve wings and a seven-eyed mask!

Chuckman wrote:Batman.

Implying Batman is half as fucked up as Shinji. Last time I checked for all his "MY PARENTS ARE DEAAAAAAAAAAAD" he still manages to function quite well in life.

Bagheera wrote:True. I would never think of comparing Shinji to Bruce Wayne, personally, but I would compare him to, say . . . Frodo Baggins.

Frodo is reluctant yes, but not nearly as flawed as Shinji.

CJD wrote:Implying Batman is half as fucked up as Shinji. Last time I checked for all his "MY PARENTS ARE DEAAAAAAAAAAAD" he still manages to function quite well in life.

No he doesn't. He dresses up in a bat costume and spends his nights beating people up. Fireball is right about it not being apt comparison given how he's portrayed, but there's no question that he's every bit as fucked up as Shinji, if not moreso.

Frodo is reluctant yes, but not nearly as flawed as Shinji.

Shinji wasn't that fucked up until Eva got its hooks into him. In a normal world he'd just be an avoidant kid with daddy issues, and otherwise a typical teenager. But anyway, the point is that both he and Frodo are reluctant heroes, but Frodo comes off a lot better on account of his portrayal. Shinji was received much more warmly in Japan, where he was . . . portrayed differently. And here, where he was portrayed as a whiny brat, people hated him, even though we did our flawed heroes as much as the next guy. I'm comfortable putting the bulk of the blame on Spike as a result.

(same with Grant and Asuka, but that's another discussion.)

Bagheera wrote:No he doesn't. He dresses up in a bat costume and spends his nights beating people up. Fireball is right about it not being apt comparison given how he's portrayed, but there's no question that he's every bit as fucked up as Shinji, if not moreso.

Yes, and he also lives a playboy lifestyle, doesn't blow all his money and let his fortune vanish, and dresses up in a bat costume and spends his nights beating people up. Call me when Batman loses his job because of his alcoholism. Or even better, when he can't even get a job because he's hooked on drugs.

Honestly, I also think you're underestimating how many people would do the superhero thing if they could. There's a reason superhero comics are so successful: they fulfill the dreams of boys everywhere.

Bagheera wrote:Shinji wasn't that fucked up until Eva got its hooks into him. In a normal world he'd just be an avoidant kid with daddy issues, and otherwise a typical teenager.

Sure, but the show isn't about NormalWorld!Shinji, it's about Eva!Shinji. And Eva!Shinji is practically 75% off due to production flaws.

CJD wrote:Sure, but the show isn't about NormalWorld!Shinji, it's about Eva!Shinji. And Eva!Shinji is practically 75% off due to production flaws.

I don't know what that means. 75% off? Production flaws? What are you trying to say here?

Bagheera wrote:I don't know what that means. 75% off? Production flaws? What are you trying to say here?

I'm saying Shinji is so broken if he were merchandise they'd have no choice but to sell him at a discount. Like a coat that's missing the zipper. Only Shinji's also missing the inner lining so he's really itchy to wear. And the collar is uneven. And the right pocket has a giant hole in it.

^
In that case then NERV would be a second-hand clothing shop, seeing all the nutcases working there!

Fireball wrote:Yes, but for all his neuroses he still embodies something immensely macho. Batman isn't known as the guy that cries over his dead parents, he is the guy that socks the Joker on the jaw at the end of the comic.

Yes. THIS.

If anything, the dead parents just serve as a carte blanche excuse for him to do crazy stuff; It still becomes part of the wish-fulfillment framework, the crazy stuff is still celebrated.

It's an excuse to smash things, and also, if their loved ones are gone, these characters are not bound by anything, increasing the wish fulfillment factor.

There's no wish-fulfillment at all in Shinji' situation.
EVA doesn't even tell you, "Sorry, you don't actually have access to awesome technology, infinite money and improbably naked chicks stumbling over you", it goes one step further, nd tell you "Even if you had all these things, that wouldn't fix your basic problem of being an inexperienced awkward teenage boy"


I mean, sure, Shinji isn't representative for Japanese media as a whole, he's from an artsy-fartsy deconstructionist work with ambitions of realism and random classical music, but even when you look at Naruto or Ichigo, they get shown with doubt, hesitation or even tears quite readily.

They just happen to get over it, usually after being snapped out of it by a friend.

Alas, Shinji didn't have the luxury of a functioning support structure....

^
And as I said, where shown Batman at an adult age, years after the traumatic event of the death of his parents, with Shinji we are right when the traumatizing events are happening.

I really doubt that Bruce Wayne just after the death of his parents was much different than Shinji, spending most of the time isolated in his room and brooding.

At least Bruce always had Alfred.

Checking Erikson's stages of psychosocial development and Harlow's attachment theory, Shinji would have turned out a hell of a lot different if he'd had an Alfred. Hell, maybe if Bruce had been stuck in Shinji's situation and Shinji vice-versa, we'd be talking about how Bruce was a spineless wimp that could barely stand to fight crime and Shinji was this totally awesome, macho dude that spoke in a gravelly voice and killed angels with awesome one-liners. Misato would have been a good Alfred. It's a shame she came too late in Shinji's psychosocial development to make a big enough difference, though.

Too late, too short, and unfortunately too little between her work at NERV and later her investigation on Gendo and SEELE and later revenge for Kaji's death(not that I blame her with her responsibilities and also traumatic childhood leaving her quite messed up too)

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:Checking Erikson's stages of psychosocial development and Kohlberg's attachment theory, Shinji would have turned out a hell of a lot different if he'd had an Alfred. Hell, maybe if Bruce had been stuck in Shinji's situation and Shinji vice-versa, we'd be talking about how Bruce was a spineless wimp that could barely stand to fight crime and Shinji was this totally awesome, macho dude that spoke in a gravelly voice and killed angels with awesome one-liners. Misato would have been a good Alfred. It's a shame she came too late in Shinji's psychosocial development to make a big enough difference, though.

Write that one down. When Some Do Not Like It Hot is done, we're doing this.