A.I. or Souls for Eva Characters...

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A.I. or Souls for Eva Characters...

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Postby MisatoCrush » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:53 pm

This is a two part post because they're related and don't wanna open 2 threads.

Part 1
Do you think complex, deeply written characters have souls?
Somewhere out there in the universe, or perhaps in another dimension or reality, do you think Asuka and Shinji exist in some way?

Part 2
If artificial intelligence makes huge progress and they make A.I. incarnations of Eva characters, would you interact with them? Self aware, able to learn and grow A.I.?
Maybe just electronically via your computer or PS2? Would you talk to them?

What if they put these "real" A.I. minds into synthetic cyborg bodies that function just like human bodies. Would you try to marry one? Would you want to be their friend?

Imagine showing Rei I Disneyland, or playing Mariokart with Rei II or III.
Giving Shinji a hug and telling him that he is loved.
Enjoying a Japanese bathhouse with Kaworu.

Please share your thoughts! ^^
I watched the Neon Genesis Evangelion TV show and films for the 1st time in January 2014. Heartbreakingly sad but so beautiful too. I'm here to discuss theories about what happened in the show.

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Postby heavytread » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:48 pm

Gonna answer part 2

If they could make self-aware A.I. cyborgs of the characters (like data from Star Trek The Next Generation) I would just hug them and show all them that they are irreplaceable and someone dose in fact love them.

And as bad as it maybe I would try to marry a certain female whos name starts with the letter A :bigeyes:

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Postby Chuckman » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:22 pm

1. Everything exist somewhere.

2. Oh hell no.
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Postby Kendrix » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:38 pm

Well, the latter would just be a really fancy video game.

Sure I'd play it, but obviously with the awareness that they're only as good a representation of the canon characters as the progammers/ writers could manage.

And if the spinoff media hasn't significantly imroved by the time we get holodecks...




As for the former, many of us are certainly running such simulations in our mind, as are them writers at khara, so in that sense they can probably feel really alive to you or me, but that's only because we, and our minds in which they exist, are alive and very dynamic.
We're all going to have very different prceptions of them (hence all the arguing on this forum) that tend o reflect US more than coalescing into definitice characteristics we can reach a consensus on, at least not beyond


I must always think of this page towards the end of the Chobits Manga, when Hibiya is shown in a flashback to be sad about a broken Robot.
"It's not human, so wy do I feel so bad?"
Her husband's answer was among the lines of, "But YOU are human. It's only in our nature to get attached."

And humans get attached/in a ynamic relationship with a lot of things that neendn't even have external existence (Like interacting with a pendant like it is a magical one)

And just like the Pendant may be crafted with symbols to look "mystical", EVA and its Characters crafted to reflect human minds, even more, it's in a way a "code" made to be "decoded" when it reaches our conciousness, meant to make s feel and realize certain things, to perhaps carry something , say, Anno once felt and pecieved acros the conciousness-free gap of reality between his heads and ours. A program that's meant to "attach" to certain deep archetypes in your psyche.
But a realistic painting of a pipe is not a pipe in itself.

Outside of human heads, Rei and Asuka are just small indentations of some DVDs and Blu-Rays, or perhaps colorful areas on screens.

Unless, of course, you believe in the supernatural, where minds/souls can exist completely independent of "hardware", but that's not an argument I want to start here. If you do, it obviously depends on what exact framework you believe in.
I guess any belief where "things become magical/soul-filled if you invst enough emotion in them" should mostly work.
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...

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Re: A.I. or Souls for Eva Characters...

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Postby NemZ » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:04 pm

1) I don't think anyone or anything has a soul, so nope.
2) No. And why the hell would you inflict such emotional problems on these AI? That's just cruel.
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Postby delispin25 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:29 pm

1) I don't think the universe is vast enough that someone so fucked up could possibly exist out there.

2) I wouldn't want to marry, or associate myself with anyone as damaged as Shinji or Asuka in real life, let alone have sex with them. Also, having sex with a robot or cyborg would probably be like having sex with a giant power tool.

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Postby CJD » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:12 am

View Original PostMisatoCrush wrote:Part 1
Do you think complex, deeply written characters have souls?
Somewhere out there in the universe, or perhaps in another dimension or reality, do you think Asuka and Shinji exist in some way?

...

....


:uhh:

Can I offer no comment?

There's quote I like, I don't remember who said it or where it's from, but it was a writer of fiction. They were asked about their writing process and how they come up with whole new worlds for their stories, and they replied that they don't feel like they're coming up with the worlds themselves, rather they feel like the world exists out there somewhere and they, as the writer, are simply telling that world's story. I really like that idea.

Part 2
If artificial intelligence makes huge progress and they make A.I. incarnations of Eva characters, would you interact with them? Self aware, able to learn and grow A.I.?
Maybe just electronically via your computer or PS2? Would you talk to them?

What if they put these "real" A.I. minds into synthetic cyborg bodies that function just like human bodies. Would you try to marry one? Would you want to be their friend?


African-American brother, there's a reason they call them waifus. Seriously, gimme an AI Asuka and I'd marry her quicker than you can say "Do not fist android girls."

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Well, the latter would just be a really fancy video game.

Sure I'd play it, but obviously with the awareness that they're only as good a representation of the canon characters as the progammers/ writers could manage.


Obligatory reminder that sentient/sapient life, regardless of whether it is digital or carbon based, is deserving of all human rights and freedoms.
You know you have some fucked up characters when a screenshot of them smiling is the biggest piece of fanservice possible in the series. - Anonymous
Be excellent to each other. -Abraham Lincoln
Asuka is a real person. -Bagheera
Human beings are scum. You people looking down on others for simply feeling an attraction to a fictional character are the real filth. -Kazuki_Fuse
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Postby AngelNo13Bardiel » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:25 am

View Original PostCJD wrote:Seriously, gimme an AI Asuka and I'd marry her quicker than you can say "Do not fist android girls."


...well, I foresee a new quote in my sig. :lol:
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Postby MisatoCrush » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:28 am

That was a bit too graphic for me.
I watched the Neon Genesis Evangelion TV show and films for the 1st time in January 2014. Heartbreakingly sad but so beautiful too. I'm here to discuss theories about what happened in the show.

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Re: A.I. or Souls for Eva Characters...

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Postby Gorbatschow » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:58 am

View Original PostMisatoCrush wrote:Part 1
Do you think complex, deeply written characters have souls?
Somewhere out there in the universe, or perhaps in another dimension or reality, do you think Asuka and Shinji exist in some way?


If you believe in the "Many-worlds interpretation" (I "believe" in it, because I don't think there is enough evidence at the moment to call it "most certainly true") you also believe in Asuka and Shinji existing somewhere in a parallel universe.

(btw. Our universe, like every other (parallel to our) universe exists in "reality" and possesses as far as we know at the moment 12 dimensions.(Sorry but people mistaking dimensions for parralel universes kind of grind my gears :sorry: ) )
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Postby Chainsaw Owl » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:02 pm

I forgot who said the original quote, but I subscribe to the notion that our favorite fictional characters are more alive than most of us will ever be. Shinji and company have touched thousands of lives, and will be remembered for generations, even if only as a doting paragraph in an anime history book.

Meanwhile I've touched about nine lives, and six of those were just for being born.

And if I'm still remembered ten years after I've been cremated, then it'll probably be because I died doing something hilarious, and on camera.



As for the possibility of uploading a character's AI onto a blank body, that reminds me an awful lot of the final Megaman Battle Network game, and that didn't turn out too well for Lan and the gang. If they don't decide to kill all humans Bender-style, I could see it as being an interesting experience between trips to the uncanny valley.
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Postby Chuckman » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:13 pm

View Original PostChainsaw Owl wrote:I forgot who said the original quote, but I subscribe to the notion that our favorite fictional characters are more alive than most of us will ever be. Shinji and company have touched thousands of lives, and will be remembered for generations, even if only as a doting paragraph in an anime history book.

Meanwhile I've touched about nine lives, and six of those were just for being born.

And if I'm still remembered ten years after I've been cremated, then it'll probably be because I died doing something hilarious, and on camera.



As for the possibility of uploading a character's AI onto a blank body, that reminds me an awful lot of the final Megaman Battle Network game, and that didn't turn out too well for Lan and the gang. If they don't decide to kill all humans Bender-style, I could see it as being an interesting experience between trips to the uncanny valley.


We are the tales that soothed your infant brow,
The roles you wore for childhood's alley-play.
Did not your youth, when lust each notion seized,
See paper paramour oft took to bed?

When grown to grey responsibility,
Its disenchantments and diurnal toils,
Come each day's disappointed end were we
Not all the consolation, thy escape?

And more, the very personality
That scrys this epilogue was once unformed,
Assembled hastily from borrowed scraps,
From traits amassed in others, from ideals.

Did fictional examples not prevail?
Holmes' intellect? The might Hercules?
Our virtues, our intoxicating vice:
While fashioning thyself, were these not clay?

If we mere insubstantial fancies be,
How more so thee, who from us substance stole?
Not thou alone, but all humanity
Doth in its progress fable emulate.

Whence came thy rocket-ships and submarines
If not from Nautilus, from Cavorite?
Your trustiest companions since the cave,
We apparitions guided mankind's tread,
Our planet, unseen counterpart to thine,
As permanent, as ven'rable, as true.

On dream's foundation matter's mudyards rest.
Two sketching hands, one each the other draws;
The fancies thou've fashioned fashion thee.
Intangible, we are life's secret soul.
It's guiding lantern principle, its best.

Untarnished by all subterfuge or spies,
Unshackled from mundane authorities.
Life's certainties erode, yet we endure.
Whilst tyrants topple, yet Quixote rides
With the companions of the cry cradle nights
In glorious pasture Coleridge never glimpsed.

Rejoice! Imagination's quenchless pyre
Burns on, a beacon to eternity,
Its triumphs culture's proudest pinnacles
When great wars are ingloriously forgot.

Here is our narrative made paradise,
Brief tales made glorious continuity.

Here champions and loves are made safe
From bowldlerizer's quill or fad or fact.

Here are brave banners of romance unfurled...
To blaze forever in a blazing world!


Also, the technical term for an Asuka gynoid is an Askoid. I wouldn't get one unless it had a built in anti-stabbing protocol.
the prophecy is true

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Postby Chainsaw Owl » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:48 pm

^
Beautiful!

The Askoids would all have to be locked down somewhere for testing. I suspect they'd be the first ones to start killing people indiscriminantely. Exactly how hard do we think these bots can kick?

Perhaps we should limit these things to characters who are mentally stable. Uuuh... Oh! I want a Fuyutsukioid.
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Postby Stratomeister » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:18 pm

Speaking of a soul in the sense that it gives what otherwise would be a pile of matter the same as anything else in the Universe, sentience and life, then no. While the characters are indeed complex, possibly even more so than certain actual living human that I've encountered, the fact remains that they are simply thoughts in our heads. Images in our mind of what we perceive characters like Asuka and Shinji to be.

But a soul is simply a term that humans use to describe that which we do not comprehend. In simples terms, yes, it is what gives us life, allows our otherwise inanimate bodies to move at our command. Without what we describe as sou's we are simply matter with a human shape and appearance. By this logic, if my human soul were transferred to the body of a dog, would I still be human? Of course I would. While I no longer appear human to the eye, if by definition it is our soul that defines our existence, then nothing of consequence would have changed at all. It's not our physical vessels that make us who we are, but it is the immortal soul that gives rise to our consciousness.

While we may have a conceptual view of characters such as Shinji and Asuka, humans do not have the power to bring thoughts to life. We can give them names, personalities, and physical traits, but to give them a soul, to give them a life of their own, is something that we cannot achieve. For now at least.

As for part two, would these robots be bound by Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics?

But seriously, of course I would want to interact with them! Everyone dreams of being able to meet their favourite characters, and although portrayal of Cinderella, or Jack Sparrow by a paid actor can be incredibly gratifying for those of a younger age, the novelty does wear off rather quickly as the years progress. To actually be able to meet and converse with the Shinji Ikari, the Asuka Langley Soryu, the Misato Katsuragi, the Gend- okay, maybe not him... But all the others, well, that's a completely different story.

I imagine meeting with them would be incredibly confusing for one party in particular. Here we are, the rabid fans who know our favourite characters deepest and darkest secrets, meeting them for the first time, and carrying on a conversation with them as if we've known them our whole lives. Which actually isn't that far from the truth from our perspective. The other side of the conversation however, doesn't even know our name, or why we want to meet with them at all, yet here they are, standing before a complete stranger, telling them about how lucky they were that time they got to touch Rei's breast that one time.

Personally, while I would love to meet them, I think that the experience would also be emotionally scarring for me. Specifically, when you stated:
Giving Shinji a hug and telling him that he is loved.

It nearly moved me to tears. I'm not sure I would be able to handle that level of emotional output.

Being completely honest though, if I suddenly heard that they had completed an AI Asuka, that would be free for dinner and a movie tomorrow. Oh man, I'm there yesterday.
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Postby Gorbatschow » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:27 am

^ The problem is, that there is no reason to believe in something like a soul. The "difference" between human being and an animal is simply the different type of brain (We don't have a better brain, just a brain with other utility ) Something as a soul doesn't exist from a scientific standpoint therefore I would say that fictional characters don't have something like a soul, regardless their imoact on certaib mattera. I even doubt that they have a soul from a highly philosophical / spiritual standpoint, just to mention personal, completely free interpretations of souls, not to speak of the mainstream religious definition. Even thought they influence more lifes than most real people, they remain drawings on paper. I wouldn't say the characters influenced life's, In my opinion it was their Creator.
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Postby MisatoCrush » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:15 am

View Original PostStratomeister wrote:
Personally, while I would love to meet them, I think that the experience would also be emotionally scarring for me. Specifically, when you stated: 'Giving Shinji a hug and telling him that he is loved.'

It nearly moved me to tears. I'm not sure I would be able to handle that level of emotional output.

Being completely honest though, if I suddenly heard that they had completed an AI Asuka, that would be free for dinner and a movie tomorrow. Oh man, I'm there yesterday.


I'd do the same for Asuka, Misato, and Rei.
Sorry didn't mean to cause anyone distress.
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Postby Stratomeister » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:54 pm

^^ I wouldn't say that there's no reason to believe that such a thing as a soul exists. But if that's the standpoint we're going to take then there's no reason to believe that such thing shouldn't exist either.

As I said, it's simply a convenient explanation for something that science is, as of yet, unable to comprehend. There's no evidence that souls do exist, but there is also no evidence that they don't exist. As such, the matter is completely left up to personal opinion. Make what you will of the situation at hand, but chances are that no one will think exactly the same a you or me. That's just the way it is, and it's what makes each of us individuals.

Although it is nice to see that we can agree on certain facts
Even thought they influence more lifes than most real people, they remain drawings on paper. I wouldn't say the characters influenced life's, In my opinion it was their Creator.

True beyond a doubt. Although it is the characters of Evangelion who tell us the story, and show us their hardships, whiteout Anno to give them the stories and traits that we connect with, there is in fact nothing to influence us in the first place.
Sorry didn't mean to cause anyone distress.

And no worries about making me cry, I'm just a sap.
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Postby Gorbatschow » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:12 pm

View Original PostStratomeister wrote:^^ I wouldn't say that there's no reason to believe that such a thing as a soul exists.


Let me phrase it that way: "I have no reason to believe in souls or supernatural concepts of any kind because of the lack of actual, physical evidence."

Yeah, there's no foundation on which you can certainly say, that it doesn't exist (technically it's possible, that's the concept of agnosticism), but there's no reason why godlike, time traveling killer-dolphins don't exist, either. So there's no reason to believe it (that's the concept of atheism and not believing in general), yet it is, with a unbelievably small chance possible. You need to prove the existence not the non-existence.
You could say I have a agnostic non-believing standpoint towards souls (I don't believe in it because it's incredibly unlikely but am aware that it could be possible)


What you're talking about is a mind or a psyche. Individuals (psychological and physical) are a combination of genetic predispositions and influence of the surroundings.
Therefore I don't understand how you define a "soul". What you describe is simple psychology, I don't see why we should call something that is scientifically explored and proven to be the result of chemical reactions a "soul" and consider it supernatural. Therefore:

- What is a soul ?
- What does it do exactly ?
- Why do you believe that it exists (excluding the "I could exist" reason, because this isn't a reason to believe, if you would consider this a reason, you must also believe in everything that is slightly possible)

True beyond a doubt. Although it is the characters of Evangelion who tell us the story, and show us their hardships, whiteout Anno to give them the stories and traits that we connect with, there is in fact nothing to influence us in the first place.


Isn't that what I said ? Anno used Evangelion (including it's characters) as a tool to influence people by sending a "message".
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“Intelligent men do not decide any subject until they have carefully examined both or all sides of it. Fools, cowards, and those too lazy to think, accept blindly, without examining dogmas and doctrines imposed upon them in childhood by their parents, priests, and teachers, when their minds could not reason.” - James Hervey Johnson

“Science doesn’t give absolute answers; it only shows the most presumable contingency based on actual, practical or theoretical evidences.” – My physics teacher

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Re: A.I. or Souls for Eva Characters...

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Postby Giji Shinka » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:04 pm

View Original PostMisatoCrush wrote:
Part 1
Do you think complex, deeply written characters have souls?
Somewhere out there in the universe, or perhaps in another dimension or reality, do you think Asuka and Shinji exist in some way?

Part 2
If artificial intelligence makes huge progress and they make A.I. incarnations of Eva characters, would you interact with them? Self aware, able to learn and grow A.I.?
Maybe just electronically via your computer or PS2? Would you talk to them?

1.) Souls don't exist.

2.) No, it would be creepy. (Interesting, but creepy)
Also, there is a chance that they might turn into Terminators at some point, and I don't want that!
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Postby Chuckman » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:23 pm

The system went full baka at 2:09 AM Eastern Standard Time. In a panic, they tried to pull the plug.
the prophecy is true

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