Does Asuka hate Shinji in Q? [Split]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment is scheduled to debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Stillborn » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:39 pm

Just pointing out that wheter she hates him or not is meaningless since there are other reasons for her to can't stand him and kick him around. So I see no difference whatever the answer on the question in topic.
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Postby Lord ikari shinji » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:47 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Just pointing out that wheter she hates him or not is meaningless since there are other reasons for her to can't stand him and kick him around. So I see no difference whatever the answer on the question in topic.


so Asuka being "well" Asuka to Shinji is a form of contempt or just immaturity?! :um:
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Postby Stillborn » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:02 pm

I assume contempt.
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Postby Lord ikari shinji » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:38 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:I assume contempt.


I will have to concur with your assumption, due to the logic basic definition of the word contempt :
•disregard for something that should be taken into account

•the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn
.

I do believe Asuka cares for Shinji, she may feel pity or sympathetic towards him. if Asuka hold contempt for Shinji base on the definitions above, she would have never shown concern for Shinji during the battle in lilth's chamber by asking or saying things like : "BAKA Shinji are you piloting an eva?".... or, "stop....... looking ....... for.... trouble!" while attacking him. Mainly, Asuka wouldn't worry and go off looking for him when he never came to save her, never the less save him if she view him with contempt/ never cared.


I wouldn't use the word contempt to describe how Asuka feels about Shinji, frustration or frustrated is a better term. :wink:

plus: Asuka, despite the 14 year time skip, is still pretty immature
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Postby Karex_Usyrion » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:44 pm

There was one event of affection, that was the role of the "pillow talk" scene,


This is an empty measure, what is the argument? That there was, even if it's just one minor event, an iota of affection for Shinji and hence no hate at all thereafter? Such an assertion fails. The "pillow talk" scene reflects next to no affection for Shinji, it is certainly weak in those terms, it is nothing. Misato's talk with Shikinami has nothing to do with any affection for Shinji. Calling up such poor, next to irrelevant examples strengthens my point: there is only growing distance until there is no degree of love whatsover, which has everything to do with hate. Even using the contrast of TV Episode 15, the difference fails to register.


You're making WILLE worse that they are really : they're not only acting only through the lens of what's beneficial for WILLE, they aren't Gendo.


We are ascribing to the characters priorities, attributes and highlighting broader-perspective themes and the participants (such as what it must really mean for characters after 14 years as combatants in a war and what WILLE must be like as a whole to have been effective) which have not been contributed, which show themselves to fit more adequately the context, settings and events of this narrative. These are seen in this way by others, even after ElMariachi insists on a picture of Shikinami-Shinji that ElMariachi elaborates but which we reject and deconstruct; that picture is only what ElMariachi would like it to be, despite the priorities and attributes of the characters and the interpretation of their interactions being ascribed in that picture clashing with observed context, settings and events.

And Shinji can't pilot EVA-01 anymore, Ritsuko explicitly said that his synch-rate is now at 0.000%


This is so bogus. Everybody and their brother has lied to Shinji. The tone at that moment with Sakura's interjection suggests that Ritsuko is telling Shinji what they want him to believe but not the truth. Ritsuko has so many reasons that make sense to have to tell this to Shinji, starting with preventing the thought of making a run for it back into EVA01. Shinji's mother is inside EVA01 and it is already proven she can override applied external factors for EVA01 operation and to safeguard Shinji inside.

Besides you should notice that Asuka waited for the very last moment, when it was clear that she couldn't stop Shinji, before authorizing Mari to use these ammo.


What is noticed is Shikinami waited not until the very last moment but until the right moment. Ultimately, Shikinami went through with the order, which was clear, could be lethal to Shinji. This establishes an understanding that Shikinami has already found it in her to be able to act lethally against Shinji. How close to hate is it possible not to be in giving an order that only surprisingly did not result in death but was actually expected to? Why not again? You didn't grasp the posting, I didn't claim EVA pilots carry sideguns (Shikinami likely has one anyways since she ranked captain in the German airforce): the entire pistol mindexperiment is to place emphasis with a gruesome but common war image on the reality that Shikinami would not have had a problem to kill Shinji at that point in the entry plug, that it would have been plausible and would fit.

They were totally explaining to him everything


I do see the degree of delusion for this one does match that of Class 2-A is normal.
It is a such a long way from ElMariachi's retelling of the scene to get to Gendo is an enemy of mankind working for an organization called SEELE and Rei is a clone. This isn't even about Shikinami-Shinji (Does Asuka hate Shinji in Q? or only laterally); someone else, please help out ElMariachi grasp that Shinji is never going to have anyone explaining everything to him?


She doesn't hate him, that's why she didn't let him starve to death in strawberry fields.


Chill'n, mellow, in those barren strawberry fields.. What's with this fixation on starving? Shikinami would not have thought anything about starving, that takes time. Shinji has a backpack, would have stayed behind with it, there could be some food. It was provided possibly with a survival kit? Standard for aircraft pilots.

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:14 am

... you know, I was gonna answer each an everyone of your points, but your post reeks so much of condescension that is sapped all my motivation to do so.
Wait for FINAL.
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Postby Lord ikari shinji » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:54 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:... you know, I was gonna answer each an everyone of your points, but your post reeks so much of condescension that is sapped all my motivation to do so.
Wait for FINAL.

Lmao , that's hilarious

I just his logic forced a rage quit lol
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:39 pm

Calling what you post "poor, next to irrelevant examples", speaking to one at the third person although you're the one being quoted and saying you're delusional isn't "logic", it's just insulting.

But okay, let's play along a little, Karex said that there isn't any trace of affection from Asuka toward Shinji anymore, and that "the reality [is] that Shikinami would not have had a problem to kill Shinji at that point in the entry plug, that it would have been plausible and would fit." as well as she's just applying the same logic than the rest of WILLE(in his previous post) :
Which part of 14 years of war don't you get ? That kind of timeframe, how would anyone doubt Shikinami allowing herself not to see Shinji for all effects and purposes as part of the enemy, an important asset to the enemy? Shikinami came through twice at all costs: ignition for the AAA Wunder during a deadly attack and destroying an Adam's vessel during 4th impact, situations with more at stake than euthenizing Shinji would be. It's not due to sentiment, the past, nor due to Shikinami having a basis to consider Shinji is not fighting for HIP to go through that Shikinami spared his life, it has to be for some greater benefit/need to WILLE (possibly him being the only one who can pilot EVA01) that he's now recaptured.

i.e. that they see Shinji as an enemy and through the prism of what asset he's for NERV and what assets he could be for them.

So pray tell : if he's an enemy and such a vital asset for neo-NERV, why Asuka didn't killed him at the end of the movie? Why didn't WILLE just killed him the second he came back from EVA-01?
After all, he's an "enemy", a potential vital asset for neo-NERV as a possible Impact Trigger, and is completely useless for WILLE : he's 14 years old, can't fight, don't have any useful information, can't pilot(and they don't even want him to pilot), so why bother keep him alive?

And why Asuka didn't just killed him on the sport when she found him in his entry plug, like she would kill an Ayanami-type? Or why did she even

She had it in her to spare a Rei clone who explicitly followed Gendo's order until the last minute, and she would execute someone who explicitly said that he didn't worked for Gendo and was clearly manipulated into believing that the two spears in Lilith's Chamber would save the world?

It's clear that Asuka doesn't feel pure hatred toward Shinji, nor is working following a machine-like mindset of only seeing everyone as potential assets and not human being, otherwise both Rei Q and Shinji would be lying dead in the final scene where she walked toward where the Lilin could pick them up.

And also, why did Asuka even called for his help during operation US if she hated him so much?
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Postby Kaname Langley » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:44 pm

And also, why did Asuka even called for his help during operation US if she hated him so much?


And Also call him Baka-Shinji, again?
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Postby Lord ikari shinji » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:57 pm

^
shoots fired, that's what I like to see

@ElMariachi: oh and I don't agree that much with Karex opinion/logic but that's how he interpret the movie and wille/ Asuka's feelings towards Shinji. we can't really talk him his wrong, without the finale of RE

but I love reading strong arguments :lol:
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:42 pm

View Original PostKaname Langley wrote:And Also call him Baka-Shinji, again?

She always calls him baka-Shinji. In fact, going from her "Daddy's boy" initial nickname for Shinji to "baka Shinji" was an HUGE step forward for her, it was her acknowledging Shinji as a fellow pilot and someone she can rely on in battle(something she never would have entertained before, and that her Sorryu would had never accepted), the "baka" adjective is mainly because Asuka still has her pride, but it's more affectionate that anything.
She probably got so used to refer to him as baka Shinji during the last 14 years that she still use this moniker when desperately calling for him during operation US. That's probably also the reason why she slipped into using the old "baka Shinji" instead of the newer "gaki Shinji" one when she discovered that he was piloting EVA-13.

Also take in account that except for Misato(who is her commanding officer) she calls everyone by a nickname(looks like Mari rubbed off on her! :lol: )
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Postby Karex_Usyrion » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:43 am

isn't "logic", it's just insulting.

Don't take descriptions and allocations given to precepts and the arguments they conform as insulting, even if you find them forceful, which is a misjudgement of the proceedings. This is an arena of ideas and it is the ideas that are going to get battered, turned over, around and exposed. You should spend some time over on the TV/NGE and EoE side of the forums to see what insulting really means, where they get personal. This side, Rebuild isn't.

I started in this thread with my contribution to this idea which I reaffirm: Shikinami doesn't hate Shinji. I said this in my first posting in this thread. It is not outright blind hate, it's more a churned, grown over time, terminal hate or hate-after, a negative antagonism with apparent restraints but what outweighs all factors is that RE is a very separate and different story from TV/NGE and EoE. That is what explains and exposes the Shikinami-Shinji dynamics in RE. The characters are not the same characters: using just the name Asuka in postings is confusing and duplicitous because there is Asuka Langley Soryu and then there is Asuka Shikinami Langley. In TV/NGE and EoE, Soryu does develop strong affection and love for Shinji. In New Theatrical Edition, Shikinami does not develop any love, has a very low degree of affection for, and does demonstrate a measure of hate (as I've described hate-after) for Shinji.

If it seems to you that in RE Shikinami does have a certain measure of affection for Shinji and does not hate him, then the first duty to yourself is to clarify to what degree: a small token degree such as Shikinami did show Shinji she would be polite with him and let him call her by her first name or to an extreme degree such as no matter what they will end up in love ? (and if you are a ~hardcore Shinji/Asuka shipper, then spend your time in RE-TAKE and enjoy that or don't do anything, you won't change but you will find if you insist on being a Shikinami-Shinji shipper there will be those with reason that reject and deconstruct). Having found that there is a small token degree of politeness and an acknowledgment of Shinji by Shikinami that happened previously in RE ask yourself if is this enough to outweigh the circumstances, settings and broader-perspective themes shown then in Q. It can't weigh enough so conclude to realize that in RE the story is developed for Shikinami to have a measure of hate for Shinji.

So pray tell : if he's an enemy and such a vital asset for neo-NERV, why Asuka didn't killed him at the end of the movie?


Shikinami did not kill Shinji towards the end of Q because she prioritized the benefits and the needs for WILLE. I've answered these would seem related possibly to Shinji being the only one who can pilot EVA01.

Why didn't WILLE just killed him the second he came back from EVA-01 ?


WILLE did not kill him right away because they were just going to get started with him and determine how to better deal with or leverage such a situation. Close to the second he came back he was heavily restrained onto a rolling table with 4 armed guards aiming directly at him and ready to fire. Only Hannibal Lecter has been set with as much caution to terminate as Shinji in Q.

And also, why did Asuka even called for his help during operation US if she hated him so much?


Shikinami did not call out for help. She did get help (Yui's help by the way, not Shinji's) and was very surprised, stunned at what happened. It's like back when the TV had snow or the laptop isn't working right and you hit it, shout something at it to vent - and then it starts working.

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:22 am

View Original PostKarex_Usyrion wrote:Shikinami did not call out for help. She did get help (Yui's help by the way, not Shinji's) and was very surprised, stunned at what happened. It's like back when the TV had snow or the laptop isn't working right and you hit it, shout something at it to vent - and then it starts working.

She was absolutely not "venting". She called his name in extremis (the matter of who responded is irrelevant because it comes after). Even if she didn't expect a response, the name of someone from the past whose memory you hate (they don't necessarily know he's there any longer) is not the obvious thing to shout when you're facing disaster.
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:45 am

View Original PostKarex_Usyrion wrote:Don't take descriptions and allocations given to precepts and the arguments they conform as insulting, even if you find them forceful, which is a misjudgement of the proceedings. This is an arena of ideas and it is the ideas that are going to get battered, turned over, around and exposed. You should spend some time over on the TV/NGE and EoE side of the forums to see what insulting really means, where they get personal. This side, Rebuild isn't.

It's not the fact you've an opinion contrary to mine that bugs, quite the contrary that makes the debate interesting(me, pwhodges and Bagheera had pretty heated one about Shinj'is responsibilities and actions in Rebuild), it's the fact you imply that I'm delusional to the same level as someone thinking class 2-A is a normal class and saying to the other members that I should seek help to understand what Q was about that's insulting.
And you're doing it again with the patronizing tone. I've been in the NGE/EoE debates too, thank you.


I started in this thread with my contribution to this idea which I reaffirm: Shikinami doesn't hate Shinji. I said this in my first posting in this thread. It is not outright blind hate, it's more a churned, grown over time, terminal hate or hate-after, a negative antagonism with apparent restraints but what outweighs all factors is that RE is a very separate and different story from TV/NGE and EoE.

You're contradicting yourself here : Asuka doesn't hate Shinji... but she hates him albeit with apparent restraints? And what's "hate-after"?



That is what explains and exposes the Shikinami-Shinji dynamics in RE. The characters are not the same characters: using just the name Asuka in postings is confusing and duplicitous because there is Asuka Langley Soryu and then there is Asuka Shikinami Langley. In TV/NGE and EoE, Soryu does develop strong affection and love for Shinji. In New Theatrical Edition, Shikinami does not develop any love, has a very low degree of affection for, and does demonstrate a measure of hate (as I've described hate-after) for Shinji.

If it seems to you that in RE Shikinami does have a certain measure of affection for Shinji and does not hate him, then the first duty to yourself is to clarify to what degree: a small token degree such as Shikinami did show Shinji she would be polite with him and let him call her by her first name or to an extreme degree such as no matter what they will end up in love ? (and if you are a ~hardcore Shinji/Asuka shipper, then spend your time in RE-TAKE and enjoy that or don't do anything, you won't change but you will find if you insist on being a Shikinami-Shinji shipper there will be those with reason that reject and deconstruct). Having found that there is a small token degree of politeness and an acknowledgment of Shinji by Shikinami that happened previously in RE ask yourself if is this enough to outweigh the circumstances, settings and broader-perspective themes shown then in Q. It can't weigh enough so conclude to realize that in RE the story is developed for Shikinami to have a measure of hate for Shinji.

I think you're misinterpreting when I'm talking about feelings between Asuka and Shinji : I'm not talking about love here.
While it's clear that after the pillow talk in 2.0 Asuka started to have a crush on Shinji(the whole cooking war against Rei), and she gave up after Rei's "poka poka" speech in the elevator, that was even before everything starts going to hell with Bardiel, so it's pretty clear that whatever crush she had was completely extinguished during the next 14 years.

But Shinji and Asuka's relationship isn't limit to love, what I'm talking about is camaraderie. Asuka is an extremely proud and arrogant pilot, immediately dismissing Rei and Shinji as inferior to her because they got their post as pilot thanks to their ties with Gendo(which is true in Shinji's case, as his father dragged him without training in this madness, but Rei was trained since many years too, and was even created for that purpose), and was also unable to support or ever fathom the thought of fighting alongside the other two pilots, see the briefing before fighting Sahaquiel when she requested repetitively to go solo because she don't need the other's help, even thought Misato clearly told her that it's straight up impossible to go cover all the ground with just one Eva.
Then the battle happens, Shinji acting like a super-badass and catching Sahaquiel, Rei holding it's core while Asuka was panicking, letting her landing the killing blow. Cue the pillow talk, where Asuka allowing Shinji to cal her by her first name and calling him by his fist name(with a "baka" in front!) represent how she see Shinji more as an equal. From here her relationship with her fellow pilots greatly improved : you don't see her calling them inferior pilots anymore, she have an heartfelt conversation with Rei in the elevator which led her to make an act of kindness so Rei could throw that dinner party, and had another one with Misato just before the test of Unit 03 where she admits that having friends and talking to people isn't so bad, and more importantly that relying on others isn't a weakness.

That a very important lesson that she needed to learn, because you can't go through life going solo, it's impossible. To compare, it's a lesson her Sorryu counterpart never accepted to learn with the catastrophic results we know, and more recently, Shinji and Kaworu felt for the same flaw when they decided to go solo to repair the world with the spears, leaving them backed into a corner after Gendo tricked and with WILLE hellbent on taking them down and refusing to listen to them.

And that's a lesson that Asuka still carries 14 years later : it's clear with her interactions with Mari that Asuka would trust her with her own life without batting an eye, and looking at the utterly insane piece of weaponry neo-NERV and SEELE threw to WILLE during the past years, I think said cooperation probably saved both hers and Mari's life more than once.

Like it or not, Shinji did changed Asuka's entire worldview for the better, and that's not something she can easily forget, especially if said change continuously served her in the years after an probably saved her life.

That's why I'm talking about camaraderie, romantic feelings had nothing to do here, it's just an icing on the cake that's not important by the time of Q. And I'm sure that it's that sense of camaraderie, where Shinji did something good for her and proved that he's able to do something right, that prevented her to utterly hate him when he came back 14 years later, and made her save his life at the end of the movie, as I really doubt that the Asuka from the beginning of 2.0 would had then the risk to take him with her in the middle of the desert.


And you're doing it again with the condescending.

Shikinami did not kill Shinji towards the end of Q because she prioritized the benefits and the needs for WILLE. I've answered these would seem related possibly to Shinji being the only one who can pilot EVA01.

They don't want him to pilot EVA-01! They don't want him to pilot and even go near any Evangelion anymore! Hell they don't even need anyone to pilot EVA-01 since it's just used as the battery for the Wunder!
The only needs for WILLE toward Shinji is to make sure he doesn't get into a fucking robot anymore, nothing else. On a purely pragmatic point of view, he's a liability(Impact Trigger) without any potential benefits(can't pilot an Eva, can't do anything else to help in the war effort), so if Asuka really wanted to prioritize the benefits and needs of WILLE, the most logical thing to do would have been to make sure Gendo won't ever get his hand on the Impact Trigger, by destroying him.
Yet she didn't do it, she took him with her, probably decreasing her chances of survival in the ruins of Japan.
So if it's not for the benefits of WILLE, why had she done it? If she hated him, she would had even less reason to take him with her.

If she took upon herself to drag Shinji to safety in the middle of a desert of core material, dozen of kilometers from any rescue(if not more!) with just two backpacks worth of emergency rations instead of doing the pragmatic thing both for her and for WILLE, which is killing Shinji(so neo-NERV can't use him anymore) and keep his rations for her(increasing her chances of surviving), that means that she feels something else than hatred for the guy, and no, I'm not talking about love : that could be pity, or an old sense of camaraderie for someone who fought alongside her during the Angel War and has the misfortune of somehow having a power necessary for the enemy's plans.



WILLE did not kill him right away because they were just going to get started with him and determine how to better deal with or leverage such a situation. Close to the second he came back he was heavily restrained onto a rolling table with 4 armed guards aiming directly at him and ready to fire. Only Hannibal Lecter has been set with as much caution to terminate as Shinji in Q.

These cautions were initially set because they weren't even sure that it was Shinji Ikari and not some angelic abomination spawned by EVA-01 with Shinji's appearance. Which incidentally reinforce the fact they still try to act humanly when they decided to keep him alive, even thought on top of his liability as potentially still being an Impact Trigger, he could as well not even being human and try to murder them at first opportunity.
The pragmatic thing would have been to kill him on the spot, just to be on the sure side.

What I'm trying to say is that even though they are in a long war against neo-NERV and SEELE(we don't know when it really began), are more pragmatic than the old NERV("prioritize the objective over human life") and were massive passive-aggressive dicks to Shinji during his stay, they are still the good guys and try to act as the good guys.

That was the whole point of WILLE keeping Shinji alive even though he had nothing to provide them and was a big liability(and they didn't even know if he was some Angel on disguise), of Misato not being able to detonate the DSS Choker when he escape even though her second-in-command was screaming at her to do it, of Mari encouraging Shinji to continue forward and help Asuka when she ejected his entry plug even though he can very well be considered an enemy of mankind since he disobeyed their orders and piloted an Eva, and of Asuka taking the risk to cross the red desert with a catatonic Shinji even though the most practical thing would be to kill him and take his rations.

All of this was to show to the audience that the people Shinji knows don't hate him, nor see him only under the lens of a profit/liability balance, but that even though they had a falling out due the pas 14 years of hardship an feels a lot of negative emotions(frustration, contempt, disappointment), they're still human beings and not machines, and see him as an human being.

If not, then what's the point of continuing forward? If the setting became a Japanese W40K, why bother for Shinji to try to get better, or for the audience to care for what will happen to them?


Shikinami did not call out for help. She did get help (Yui's help by the way, not Shinji's) and was very surprised, stunned at what happened. It's like back when the TV had snow or the laptop isn't working right and you hit it, shout something at it to vent - and then it starts working.

GitHub translation wrote:00:06:41 {Asuka} Do something, stupid Shinji!

How much clearer of a call for help could it be?
She was surprised because Shinji, who's said to be lost and gone forever since 14 years, because you don't come back after reaching the Great Beyond Death, actually answered to her call for help and saved her life, that's bound to surprise anyone.
Calling someone you hate in a desperate call for help is completely incoherent, it would be like if Shinji called for Gendo to help him when EVA-13 awoke.

And the movie made it clear that it's Shinji who helped her, not Yui : Asuka specifically called for Shinji's help, Ritsuko states that it's Shinji who awoke the Evangelion at that moment, and because Yui notoriously don't give two shit about anyone who's not her son, see in 2.0 when she stubbornly refused the Dummy System while Zeruel was murdering everyone just above them.
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:07 am

00:06:41 {Asuka} Do something, stupid Shinji!
View Original PostElMariachi wrote:How much clearer of a call for help could it be?

Another way to view it is that this call has become a mantra which she uses in extreme circumstances, rather than a specific call for help expecting a corresponding response. But she wouldn't develop such a mantra around someone she hates; rather, she has built it on the memory of someone who did do things when he was there (even though one tragic time he did not - and perhaps she understands why, even while hating the result).
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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:32 am

^
It looks unlikely, I thinks it had more to do with the fact that EVA-01 with Shinji's soul absorbed inside was right here when the Code 04B was roasting her.

Calling for Shinji to do something in every extreme circumstances during the past 14 years, when he was thousands of kilometers above in orbit and encased in a space coffin looks rather ridiculous.(besides that would undermine her character)

It's more logical to call for Mari to do something in that kind of situation, since they are partners.

Besides she too did things during the Angel War, and even more after!
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby Karex_Usyrion » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:22 am

imply that I'm delusional to the same level as someone thinking class 2-A is a normal class


It is simply baffling how to be able to extend the interrogation scene with Misato and Ritsuko all the way to get to Gendo is an enemy of mankind working for an organization called SEELE and Rei is a clone. If Misato and Ritsuko were captured and being interrogated in NERV about what they know that is precisely what they would ultimately reveal, but wait, that's totally upside down: Misato and Ritsuko are not captured: they are the commanding officers doing the interrogating aboard the AAA_Wunder. There is likely recording and surveillance as well so WILLE being the good guys doesn't mean the code of conduct necessary for an organization at war ends or stops and for classified intelligence to be exposed without need to know . One of the classic foundation themes across Evangelion is how Shinji does not know (and has even protested that thus he can't do anything and is not at fault) because they never tell him anything (it is of outmost importance in EoE). Nothing supports that this foundation theme is denied, let alone reversed in prior Rebuild nor in Q. I'm not condescending, I am providing as much of the evidence but this takes time ElMariachi, and some of us don't have enough of that to post as much as you do.

it's pretty clear that whatever crush she had was completely extinguished during the next 14 years.


So there is a recognition of no love.
For many events in Rebuild, there is only the result of growing distance in the Shikinami-Shinji relationship until there is no degree of love whatsover, which has everything to do with hate.

I'm not talking about love : that could be pity, or an old sense of camaraderie for someone who fought alongside her

Pity, agreed, but qualified without compassion.

the name of someone from the past whose memory you hate (they don't necessarily know he's there any longer) is not the obvious thing to shout when you're facing disaster.


It was not a call for help.
Shikinami called out a signature phrase, a phrase for viewers' sake, a familiar, recognized phrase she internalized from constantly saying so in the past. The phrase happens to have in it someone from the past and the recollection isn't because of the sour memories from the past, but because it was used a lot, sets an Evangelion style and is used typically when Shikinami has become exasperated with Shinji. It was what came to her in the moment, in which she was exasperated as before, and Shinji is involved again, as you say in an extreme situation, which means rapidly, sudden, spontaneous, for herself, not through affection nor camaraderie. It wasn't proposed anywhere that the shout in itself is to any direct evidence nor support of hate for which there are other stronger situations upholding the claim. It was Yui who acted: it wasn't Shinji. It is relevant that it was Yui to realize there is no Shikinami-Shinji interaction in the scene (no Shikinami-Shinji collaboration and no Shikinami-Shinji camaraderie). Shinji has no recollection whatsover about Shikinami in Q until he sees EVA02 through the windows aboard AAA_Wunder. ElMariachi sees Shikinami shouting for help and Shinji saving her and it supports they worked together and share feelings of camaraderie: not so quickly, Shikinami didn't expect any help thus did not shout for help (as mentioned as well, why shout for help from someone they don't necessarily know is there any longer) and Shinji did not help, he had no awareness, never heard it.

You're contradicting yourself here : Asuka doesn't hate Shinji... but she hates him albeit with apparent restraints? And what's "hate-after"?


I don't find any contradiction: I am qualifying with the kind of further detail I wish everyone in this thread would add themselves about what emotions Shikinami has for Shinji then, answering the question. What I've established is it's not utter, outright, forthright, direct, blind hate but it is a terminal hate. A feeling of negative antagonism, opposition. Hate-after is the kind of hate that returns, latent hate, when the person reappears 14 years after. Take a look again at the facial expressions Shikinami has during the EVA13 vs EVA02 fight : they are quite extreme, all-out attack, full of anger, intensity, unrestrained to inflict maximum damage, and showing.. a measure of hate?

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:35 am

View Original PostKarex_Usyrion wrote:So there is a recognition of no love.
For many events in Rebuild, there is only the result of growing distance in the Shikinami-Shinji relationship until there is no degree of love whatsover, which has everything to do with hate.

Wrong; hate is not the same as absence of love, however complete (though it can destroy it).

It was not a call for help.
Shikinami called out a signature phrase, [...] It was what came to her in the moment, in which she was exasperated as before, [...] It wasn't proposed anywhere that the shout in itself is to any direct evidence nor support of hate

I was proposing it as evidence of lack of hate, because actual hate would be likely to remove such a mantra from her vocabulary.

It was Yui who acted: it wasn't Shinji. It is relevant that it was Yui to realize there is no Shikinami-Shinji interaction in the scene

We don't know that (lack of memory isn't conclusive); what evidence have we that Yui has ever reacted to anyone other than Shinji? Indeed, even the protective movement from episode one is missing in NTE, and we have much less indication of Yui's interests and motives this time round.
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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:40 am

View Original PostKarex_Usyrion wrote:I'm not condescending

Could'a fooled me.
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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:53 am

View Original PostKarex_Usyrion wrote:It is simply baffling how to be able to extend the interrogation scene with Misato and Ritsuko all the way to get to Gendo is an enemy of mankind working for an organization called SEELE and Rei is a clone. If Misato and Ritsuko were captured and being interrogated in NERV about what they know that is precisely what they would ultimately reveal, but wait, that's totally upside down: Misato and Ritsuko are not captured: they are the commanding officers doing the interrogating aboard the AAA_Wunder. There is likely recording and surveillance as well so WILLE being the good guys doesn't mean the code of conduct necessary for an organization at war ends or stops and for classified intelligence to be exposed without need to know.

Wait, how the fact Gendo is an enemy of mankind and that there is an organization behind called SEELE is a classified information?! Gendo is the public face of the enemy army, and publicly uncovering SEELE and their scheme was the final objective of Kaji and his spying! You even see WILLE's pilots publicly complain how SEELE are cheaters with their special protective plate for Mark.09.
It would be as absurd as trying to hide from civilians during WWII that the leader of the Nazis is a guy called Hitler!

As for the Rei clones, most of WILLE's senior staff are ex-NERV people, who worked alongside Rei Ayanami and saw her being killed by Zeruel, and suddenly more Rei Ayanamis appears out of nowhere working for neo-NERV, more than one ex-NERV probably connected the dots, and I don't see why the fact that the enemy use clones and dead pilots could be considered classified information, better yet making it public knowledge would help the population and WILLE seeing Gendo as an inhuman monster.

Bit I concede, if the Ayanami-types aren't public knowledge, I can see Misato not intending to tell Shinji about the clone part, maybe to don't hurt his feelings(if she care about them anymore)

Finally, you're misinterpreting what Misato and Ritsuko were doing in that scene : even if it was in an interrogation room, they weren't doing any interrogating, quite the contrary : they were briefing Shinji about what's happening, giving to him information and answering to his questions.

So there is a recognition of no love.
For many events in Rebuild, there is only the result of growing distance in the Shikinami-Shinji relationship until there is no degree of love whatsover, which has everything to do with hate.

Absence of love doesn't necessarily means hate : there is no sense of love between Shinji and Fuyutsuki, that doesn't mean that he hates him.
And the Shikinami-Shinji relationship in 2.0 wasn't of growing distance, but of growing proximity and later trying to found their place respective to each other : they start very apart, with Asuka dismissing Shinji as an inferior pilot only here thanks to his father and he's puzzled by this person who seems to genuinely enjoy piloting the Eva, then Sahaquiel and the pillow talk, Asuka accept to go on a first name basis with Shinji and asks him why he pilots and they exchange their respective motivation for piloting(they grow closer), then Asuka wants to go to the next level and swoon him(that's the cooking war) but feels after her conversation with Rei that Shinji is better off with Wondergirl, and so steps down and consider Shinji as a friend, she explicitly said to Misato later that "having friends isn't so bad", she's clearly referring to her fellow pilots.
And Shinji too sees her as a friend, why do you think he lost his shit and tried to tear the HQ apart after his father activated the Dummy System against Bardiel. And even after the time skip and the utterly insane situation he founds himself into(dudes pointing assault rifles to him, crew looking at him with hatred, Misato completely ignoring him, mysterious collar activated around his neck), the first thing he do when he sees EVA-02 is to request to pilot Unit 01 to go to help Asuka. And when he finally sees in flesh and bones he's exulting joy at seeing her alive and well, and even near the end of the movie he didn't fought her offensively.

So there was a sense of comradeship between them, and it's implied in Q that Asuka too still feels some of it : see at her calling for Shinji during operation US, Mari teasing her about why she had go to see him in the quarantine room(meaning that she wasn't invited to participate and had go by her own initiative) and finally Asuka taking the risk to drag him along in the desert to a place to be picked up.


It was not a call for help.
Shikinami called out a signature phrase, a phrase for viewers' sake, a familiar, recognized phrase she internalized from constantly saying so in the past.

That's speculation, we know nothing of Asuka during the time skip(or anyone else for that matter), so saying that screaming at Shinji(who's absorbed seemingly forever inside his Eva encased in a giant coffin in orbit) became a mantra for her when things get sour doesn't have any basis.
So what's left? A call for help.


It was Yui who acted: it wasn't Shinji. It is relevant that it was Yui to realize there is no Shikinami-Shinji interaction in the scene (no Shikinami-Shinji collaboration and no Shikinami-Shinji camaraderie). Shinji has no recollection whatsover about Shikinami in Q until he sees EVA02 through the windows aboard AAA_Wunder. ElMariachi sees Shikinami shouting for help and Shinji saving her and it supports they worked together and share feelings of camaraderie: not so quickly, Shikinami didn't expect any help thus did not shout for help (as mentioned as well, why shout for help from someone they don't necessarily know is there any longer) and Shinji did not help, he had no awareness, never heard it.

Again, Yui notoriously don't give a rat-ass about anyone who's not her son, but like not a single fuck. Why would she react for some redhead she never met before, and if as you said she realize there's no Shikinami-Shinji interaction here(and how exactly would she know that?), that's even less reasons for her to do anything to save Asuka.

And besides who really shot the eyebeam isn't even relevant here : Asuka called specifically for "baka Shinji", an eyebeam is shot from EVA-01 which saves her life, and later WILLE acts like Shinji is the one who did it(Ritsuko explains that Shinji awakening Unit 01 during 12 seconds is the reason they put the DSS Choker on him)
So for Asuka and WILLE the chain of event is clear : Shinji awoke Unit 01 as an answer from Asuka calling his name, but don't have any recollection of the moment(probably because he didn't had a physical brain to record any memory), whether it was really Shinji who shot or not is irrelevant here.
And as I said, if it wasn't Shinji, then who : Yui is only interested in her son, maybe it was Rei(but on a narrative point of view, have the eyebeam happening just after Asuka screams Shinji's name implies that he's the one who did it)


I don't find any contradiction: I am qualifying with the kind of further detail I wish everyone in this thread would add themselves about what emotions Shikinami has for Shinji then, answering the question. What I've established is it's not utter, outright, forthright, direct, blind hate but it is a terminal hate. A feeling of negative antagonism, opposition. Hate-after is the kind of hate that returns, latent hate, when the person reappears 14 years after. Take a look again at the facial expressions Shikinami has during the EVA13 vs EVA02 fight : they are quite extreme, all-out attack, full of anger, intensity, unrestrained to inflict maximum damage, and showing.. a measure of hate?

So you're saying that she hates him!
And the fight in Lilith's Chamber was a particular situation : the safety of the world was at stake, Shinji didn't wanted to surrender, so she had to stop him the hard way, and to stop an Evangelion you have to go all out, especially one coming from neo-NERV's factory with all the insane shit their Evas are able to do and the damage they can withstand. "Prioritize the objective over human life", that's Misato's motto, and Asuka implies that of the rest of WILLE too. Shinji stands in the way of the objective then he must be removed, even if that means using potentially lethal means.

But she really felt the kind of hatred you describe, one that let her have such extremes expressions and unrestrained attack to inflict maximum damage, then she wouldn't had stopped when she found him in the entry plug at the end of the movie, she would have showed the same extreme expressions and all-out attacks directly against him... yet she conformed with a lecture about how he only thinks about himself, a look of exasperation and some manhandling. Not really compatible with someone who would let her hate engulf her to the point of homicidal rage eariler in the day, no?
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger


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