Original/Broadcast Episodes 25/26

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Original/Broadcast Episodes 25/26

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Postby 1731298478 » Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:08 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:That's an odd criss-cross between continuities, though. EoE 25 was the originally intended, but EoTV 25 was not. EoTV 26 was the intended ending, but EoE 26 wasn't.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:I took it to mean that the planned 25 was skipped, and so the planned 26 became TV 25+26 (otherwise TV 25 is unaccounted for).

I have found this to be a difficult question. Anno's statements on matters like this are in my experience vague and not always easy to reconcile. This is my best attempt at trying to work it out. Please keep in mind it may be very incorrect! I'm going to use the following notation:
25/26 - broadcast versions of episodes 25 and 26
25'/26' - EoE versions of episodes 25 and 26
25*/26* - originally intended versions of episodes 25 and 26

One of Anno's most detailed statements on the ending comes at the end of the first June interview. There is a translation here, but some important parts are hard to interpret in the original (for me at least) and consequently in the translation. Generally, though, Anno seems to be saying the TV ending was intended for one episode (26*) and there was one further plot-related episode (25*/25') which didn't get made. In describing the intended ending, however, Anno seems to be referring to the content of broadcast episode 25 (seeing the parts of other people that they want to keep hidden) rather than the content of broadcast episode 26.

庵野 [中略] 25話で大体の謎にカタがついたら、あとはシンジさえなんとかすればいいやと。
Anno: ... I had thought that, once I had resolved most of the mysteries in episode 25, I could do something with Shinji just by himself afterwards.


From moyaofthemist's translation:

Anno: ... The idea of a play within a play and making it like a stage came to me at the last moment, but Shinji-kun went on looking at not only the surfaces of strangers, but their pasts… No matter what kind of person it is, is it not the case that they have filthy aspects? But I think that when you have a relationship with someone, particularly at the moment when you think that you don’t want to be hated, poof, you take on the burden of doing everything you can to keep from showing that part of yourself. You try to show as many of your good aspects as possible. It’s not that you judge while looking only at those sorts of aspects, it’s whether you can ever look at that human as a single individual at the times when you see that person’s negative aspects.

Interviewer: It’s like, can you accept them in their entirety?

Anno: Precisely. That’s Dr. Freud’s theory of a good mother and a bad mother at the oral stage of development, though. In short, a mother is someone who simultaneously protects you unconditionally and restrains you—which you could call the bad part. Additionally, it’s not the case that a mother is in a good mood every day. For example, when you cried, if she was in a good mood, she might have said something like, “Be a good child, a good child; you mustn’t cry,” but if she were irritable and in a bad mood, she might even shout, isn’t that right? From a child’s perspective, you can’t see the two as the same person. Therefore both a good mother and a bad mother exist, and when you recognize that they are contained within a single personality, you’re able to see for the first time what’s known as a stranger [other]. I intended to do that. I was able to release all of the ideas I had.


In an interview with Waseda University in 2000, Anno says the following:

庵野  本来、こういう風になるはずだったんだろうねえ、ということです。あれはリメイクになっちゃってますから。実際にやりたかったのは25話。もともとテレビの26っていうのはああなる予定だったんです。25までちゃんとできてて26でひっくり返すっていうのは美しいんです。25が落ちちゃって、結局このまま製作するしかない、と。映画は25のほうをメインでやりたかったです。26がなあ、綺麗に作り直してると思うんですよ。綾波レイが巨大化するっていうのは当初の予定に無いですけど、まあどうせやるなら地球規模にしようと。40mとか50mとかでかけりゃ文句無いだろ、と。

Anno: It was a question of, this was probably how it was supposed to be originally. That was [the basis for] the remake. What I really wanted to do was episode 25. Originally, I had planned that the television version of episode 26 would end up being like [it was]. It would have been beautiful to do the story properly up to episode 25 and then turn everything inside out with episode 26. 25 fell through, and in the end I felt we had to [finish] producing the series as things were. For the film, the main thing was that I wanted to remake episode 25. Episode 26, I thought I would beautifully recreate. I didn't expect at the time that Ayanami would become enormous, though. I felt, well, if we're going to do it let's make her the size of the planet. [unclear on last sentence]

人研  今庵野さんが25話、テレビ版のほうなんですけど、僕は面白いと思いましたけれど、今の庵野さんが観たらどう思われますか?

- I thought the television version of episode 25 was interesting. How does it seem when you look at it now?

庵野  25話っていうのは、フィルムにしたときにあれだけ観てないですね。25話が本来の最終回なんですよ。

Anno: I didn't really watch it when I made it [? lit. put it onto film]. Episode 25 was the original final episode.


This does seems to contradict slightly what Anno says in Parano, so I wonder if I am understanding it correctly.

庵野 [略] 二五話って、最初にフィルムができて見た時、自分で、俺天才かなあと思ったんですけどね。でも、後からもう一回編集して見直すと、ウワァ~!全然ダメだとガッカリして。

Anno: When I saw episode 25 after first putting it together [lit. when the film was first completed], I thought, “I’m a genius.” However, when I re-edited and re-watched it afterwards, I was crushed. It was no good at all.


In addition, in his late commentary, Oguro says that his staff had the concept of the series' ending explained to them (he thinks) in January 1996, so the idea for the ending was in place at least by that point (which was still rather late!).

1996年の1月だったと思うが、『エヴァ』LD解説書スタッフで呑み会をやった。その時にGAINAXの方もいらしていて、第弐拾伍話と最終話がどんな内容になるかを説明してくれた。僕達がラスト2話の内容を知ったのは、それが初めてだった。その時の説明では、主要キャラクターが代わる代わる画面に登場して、その人物がどうして補完されねばならないのかが語られるものになる、という事だった。個々のキャラクターが、人間が不完全な存在である事を証明する為のサンプルというわけだ。すでに酒が回っていた僕達は「またまた、そんな冗談でしょう」と云って、その話を本気にしなかった。

I think it was January 1996 when the LD commentary staff got together for drinks. There were some people from Gainax with us, and they explained to us the content of the final two episodes. That was the first time we learned of the contents of the final two episodes. According to the explanation at that time, the main characters would each take turns appearing on the screen, and we would be told why [or maybe in what way?] that character had to be complimented. The individual characters were samples proving that human beings were an imperfect existence. Since we had already had a few drinks, we thought this was some kind of joke and didn't take it seriously.

Bonus anecdote ^^:
SPOILER: Show
「第弐拾伍話 終わる世界」を観た時の事はよく憶えている。当時、僕や幾原邦彦監督は『少女革命ウテナ』の準備を進めており、『ウテナ』のスタッフルームであるビーパパススタジオをすでに開いていた。第弐拾伍話のオンエアは、ビーパパススタジオで皆と一緒に観た。第弐拾伍話を観て、僕達は盛り上がった。その前衛的な手法とフィルムのテンションの高さ、そして、次に何が起きるか分からない事を面白いと感じ、感銘を受けたのだ。「次に何が起きるか分からない」なんてよく使う言い回しだが、アニメを観ていて本当にそんな事を思ったのは、この第弐拾伍話が最初で最後かもしれない。勿論、この話を観たファンが困惑するであろう事も分かっていた。

I well remember first seeing episode 25 ("A World Ending"). At that time, I was working with Director Kunihiko Ikuhara on the preparations for Revolutionary Girl Utena; we had already opened the Be-Papas Studio, which served as the staff room for Utena. When episode 25 was broadcast, everyone was watching it together in the Be-Papas Studio. Watching it, everyone was enthused. The combination of avant-garde technique with the high level of filmic tension, together with the feeling that we had no idea what would happen next, made a deep impression upon us. "Not knowing what will happen next" is an expression people use all the time, but that was probably the first and last time I honestly felt that way watching an anime. Of course, I also knew that the fans watching the episode would be bewildered.


There seem to be some substantial differences between Oguro's account and Anno's description of the finale in the JUNE interview. That being said, it also seems that both Oguro's (imperfectly remembered or conveyed?) account and Anno's description give primarily details of what happens in broadcast episode 25. This seems to suggest that the contents of broadcast 25 were drawn from 26*.

What seems certain is that the originally intended 25* was remade as 25'. What seems possible is that the originally intended 26* corresponds substantially to 25. What is unclear is a) what part of 26 belongs to 26*, or what the general relation between 26 and 26* is, and b) what the exact relation is between 26' and 26* on the one hand and 26' and 26 on the other.

My guess for the moment at least is that 25*/26* corresponds roughly to 25'/25, but I am not sure. Oguro has a very strange theory that 25 and 26 are not really connected and are in effect different endings, and that the end of 25 can serve by itself as a conclusion to the series. I think it's not impossible that 25 by itself corresponds to 26* and that 26 is an additional invention, but it's also possible that 26 was in fact included from the start in 26*, as at least some of Anno's comments seem to suggest.
Last edited by 1731298478 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby NemZ » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:52 pm

Huh. My interpretation has always been that 25* was the source for the few little snippets of 'real world leakage' into became 25 and was the basis for 25' (though almost certainly with some changes), 26* was padded out to fill 25 and 26, and 26' is a completely original work.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:57 am

For whatever it's worth, Renewal/Platinum booklets mention 25' and 26' are remakes of 25 and 26. So in my mind (concurrency viewpoints aside), I think this new information means 25*, 25 & 25' are different methods of telling the same episode/story while 26 & 26' are a looser format of telling the same ending. Not sure what all this would mean for 26* since we don't know the content. Does any of that make sense?

I wonder if any of 25* and 26* would have had to do with the Proposal series ending (probably #26's "The Only Neat Thing To Do" moreso than #25's "Arka" content?), or if they were already well into producing the series when figuring this stuff out?

TV 25/26 not relating to EoE or that they're alternate endings, that makes sense. But it's very weird to think that 25* / 25 would have no bearing on 26. :cringe: Regarding Anno's own thoughts, I'm sure like any artist, he feels differently about his work or the creative process he took at any given moment.
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Postby 1731298478 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:14 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:For whatever it's worth, Renewal/Platinum booklets mention 25' and 26' are remakes of 25 and 26. So in my mind (concurrency viewpoints aside), I think this new information means 25*, 25 & 25' are different methods of telling the same episode/story while 26 & 26' are a looser format of telling the same ending. Not sure what all this would mean for 26* since we don't know the content. Does any of that make sense?

For me, on the one hand it obviously makes sense to put 25'/25* and 25 together since images from 25'/25* appear in 25 and the scene where Gendo retrieves Rei occurs in both 25' and 25. On the other hand, the statements from Anno and the staff strongly suggest 25'/25* was meant to go in between TV episodes 24 and 25, so I wonder if those scenes are either a kind of spill-over from the missing episode - or else, from the POV of concurrency, flashbacks to the events of the missing episode.

For example, Sadamoto says the following about the original episode 25* in Parano (pp. 164-165):

貞本 でも、僕はあの二五、二六話でいいと思う。単純に、二四話から二五話への繋ぎの話が抜けてるだけだと思ったけどね。だから今やってる本来の二五話(リテイク版)が。それが抜けてるだけじゃんと。僕は最初の脚本見てたから。本来の二五話が入ったら、きれににテレビ版の二五、二六話につながるはずだから。一話分抜けてるだけだな。いいじゃんって。

摩砂雪 それは作ってる本人達だからわかるっていうのは、あったんだけどね。

貞本 だからきれいに、僕の中ではつながってる。でも普通の人は、あの二四話の続きを見たいのに、それが抜け落ちていたから。それで頭がカーッとなって。

大泉 まったくそうですね。

貞本 関係性が見えなかったから。

鶴巻 まあ本来の二五話のシナリオはできてたわけだから。

貞本 僕はそれを見てたから、まあいいじゃないですか、これでもっていう感じで。

Sadamoto: But I thought that the final two episodes were fine. I thought it was simply a matter of the connecting episode between episodes 24 and 25 being missing. That's why we're doing the original episode 25 (the remake version) now. I think it's just that that episode was missing. I saw the initial script. If the original episode 25 had been there, then there would have been a clear link leading up to the television versions of episodes 25 and 26. Just one episode was missing. So I thought [the ending] was fine.

Masayuki: We know that because we're the people who worked on [the series].

Sadamoto: So in my mind there's a clear link [bridging episode 24 and EoTV]. But the ordinary viewers, although they wanted to see the continuation of episode 24, it was omitted. So, they got mad at it.

Oizumi: That's completely right.

Sadamoto: They couldn't see the relation [between 24 and EoTV].

Tsurumaki: Well, it's because the original episode 25 script was completed [but not used].

Sadamoto: Because I've seen [that script], I thought, [watching EoTV], well, even this much is fine.

Where concurrency is concerned, it makes the most sense for me for 25' to take place, or mostly take place, between TV episodes 24 and 25, while 26' would be roughly contemporary with and equivalent to 25+26 together (or 26*). However, I haven't seriously thought it through comparing scenes and so on, whereas other people have. Or maybe 25 is more seriously a hybrid of 25* and 26*...?

I mean, based on Anno's comments, I think the idea of some kind of concurrency is possible or plausible. Only, the full intention behind the ending remains somewhat shrouded in mystery, at least to me ... ^^;;;

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:I wonder if any of 25* and 26* would have had to do with the Proposal series ending (probably #26's "The Only Neat Thing To Do" moreso than #25's "Arka" content?), or if they were already well into producing the series when figuring this stuff out?

As far as I know they were already well into it by that point. There are a couple of places in the Schizo/Parano interviews where Sadamoto mentions the earliest concept of the ending:

貞本 最初の企画段階の大団円は、もっとしっかりとした話になる予定だったと思う。ラストに最後の使徒と月面で戦うシーンがあって。それで、何年かしたら、その月の表面にメッセージが書かれているというような、『トップ』みたいなイメージかなあと皆で話したんですよね。

Sadamoto: I think that we expected the "grand finale" of the initial planning stages to be more conventional. In the finale, there was going to be a scene with a fight against angels on the surface of the moon. And then, after a number of years had passed, a message would be written on the moon's surface. We discussed something like that, something along the lines of "Gunbuster."

貞本 実は最初の企画段階でも、最終話の構成案、あったんですよ。そこでのセリフって、まんま『ナディア』でしたからね。セリフまで同じで。なんてセリフだったかな。

佐藤 「生きろ」とか。

貞本 そうそう、親父が「生きろ」とか言うんだ。そんな感じでした。

Sadamoto: The truth is that in the initial planning stages, there was a draft outline of the final episode. There were lines in it that were exactly the same as "Nadia." Even the lines were the same - what were the lines?

Sato: "Live!" and so on.

Sadamoto: Right, the father says "live!" and so forth. It was something like that.

Note that Sadamoto actually used the same Nadia-inspired line and concept in his manga ending, so maybe he was thinking back to the original planning stages of Eva ^^

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:TV 25/26 not relating to EoE or that they're alternate endings, that makes sense. But it's very weird to think that 25* / 25 would have no bearing on 26. :cringe:

It is a bit strange. The theory belongs to Yuichiro Oguro, who was in charge of the various official commentaries for the original series (the LD package and Renewal commentary, the D&R and EoE pamphlets, sections of the Tomo no Kai cards/pamphlets). I believe his commentary is a mixture of things he knows or was told by the production staff and (sometimes a bit wild) speculation on his part. Since it's not always completely clear which is which, it's hard to know how much emphasis to put on the various things he says.

Well, since it's at least interesting, here's his theory. Where he quotes the show I used the Platinum scripts.

今、「第弐拾伍話と最終話が最初のエンディング」と書いたばかりだが、僕は「第弐拾伍話 終わる世界」の続きが「最終話 世界の中心でアイを叫んだけもの」ではなく、それぞれが別の最終回なのではないかと思っている。つまり、一つめのエンディングが第弐拾伍話、二つめのエンディングが最終話、三つめのエンディングが第25話と第26話ではないか。第弐拾伍話の最後で、そこがシンジが望んだ世界である事が分かる。シンジは自分の弱い心を守る為に、厭なものを排除した孤独な世界を願った。「この形も終局の中のひとつ」「あなた自身が導いた、この世の終わりなのよ」と語られる。サブタイトルは、その内容通りの「終わる世界」だ。

I have just been writing about episodes 25 and 26 as being the first ending, but I wonder if episode 26 is not in fact a continuation of 25. I wonder if the two episodes are in fact seperate endings. In short, is episode 25 one ending, episode 26 a second, and episodes 25' and 26' a third ending? At the end of episode 25, we understand that this is the world that Shinji wished for. In order to protect his fragile mind, he wished for an isolated world which excluded everything he dislikes. He is told, "This is one of the many ends that could occur," "This is the end of the world that you have brought about." The subtitle, in accordance with this, is "The World Ending."

 ところが「最終話 世界の中心でアイを叫んだけもの」でシンジは、改めて「自分の存在価値」や「厭な事」について苦悩している。第弐拾伍話でシンジが厭なものを排除した孤独な世界を望み、そこに居るのならば、何故、最終話で同じ事で苦悩するのか。シンジが世界の終わりを望んだ事で、他のキャラクターに責められる深刻な第弐拾伍話のラストと、どこかのんびりとした最終話は気分的にも繋がっていない。最初に「時に 西暦2006年」とクレジットが出る事からも分かるように、最終話は、第弐拾伍話の翌年の話である。最終話で描かれているのが、すでに全ての人の心が一つになった世界の出来事であるとするならば、一度、シンジの葛藤にもリセットがかかっているのだと考える事もできるが。

However, in episode 26, Shinji is once again troubled by questions about the value of his existence and the things he dislikes. If, in episode 25, Shinji wished for a solitary world which excluded those things and remains there, then why, in episode 26, is he troubled by those things again? Also mood-wise, there is no connection between the severe ending of episode 25 where he is attacked by the other characters for wishing for the end of the world and the somwhat carefree episode 26. As we are given to understand from the words appearing at the start of the episode, "The year is 2016 A.D.," the final episode takes place in the year following episode 25. If we take episode 26 to depict a world where the minds of mankind have all been already united into one, then it is thinkable that Shinji's inner conflict has been "reset."

 第弐拾伍話ラストがエンディングのひとつだとしたら、それは三つのラストの中で一番のバッドエンディングとなる。だが、それは第弐拾四話までの気分と繋がってはいる。そして、そのはっきりと痛みのある終わり方は悪くない。

If we take the finale of episode 25 as one ending, then, of the three endings, it is the one with the worst outcome. However, it is connected to the mood of episode 24. In that sense it is not a bad thing to have an ending that is clearly painful.

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Postby Kendrix » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:16 am

Nah. I find the telop narratives too built upon each other for there not to be continuity.
I don't think ep 25 works without the first half.

And Anno being awfully self-depreciating about anything he does isn't particularly new; He was surprised that people actually reacted positively to 1.11 and, Y'know, showed some interest in actually wanting more of this hugely influential cashcowtastic show XD
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Postby 1731298478 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:57 pm

Thinking again about concurrency between 25 + 25':

If we take the original intent to be something like:
Episode 25*: "Battle with the Eva Series"
Episode 26*: "Shinji looks into the lives of others"

Then it makes sense that 25 might have combined the concept of 26* with the background of 25*. Or otherwise, looking at the episode 25 script, it looks like the first half might correspond with 25* and the second with 26*. In that case:

25 = 25*+26*
25' = 25*

so then

26 = part of 26*??
26' = 26*??

View Original PostKendrix wrote:And Anno being awfully self-depreciating about anything he does isn't particularly new; He was surprised that people actually reacted positively to 1.11 and, Y'know, showed some interest in actually wanting more of this hugely influential cashcowtastic show XD

True, though in this case he went from one extreme to the other! Here's another account of Anno's reaction:

貞本 脚本を見て、泣いたとか。庵野さんは、それ聞いて拳を上げて、カッツ!(笑)

摩砂雪 それ何話の時だっけ。

貞本 二五話。

竹熊 それはミサトさんの人が脚本で泣いた?

貞本 それでガッツだと。僕のマンガの担当も泣いてて、その話をしたら、もう一度ガッツポーズ(笑)。勝ったと。世の中に二人ほど泣いてくれる人がいたから。でも終わってからいろいろ言われて、けっこうヘナヘナしてたよね。あのガッツはなんだったんだ(笑)。

摩砂雪 二五話を作ってる時は「俺って天才」とか言ってて。それが放映されたら、部屋から放心状態になって出てきてさ。なんでこんな変なものを俺は作ったんだと(笑)。

佐藤 最終回だってそうじゃないですか。

摩砂雪 いや、最終回はなにも言わないんだ。二五話は、とにかくすごい気に入ってたらしいんだよ。自分で。そしたら、もう放映されたの見たら、「俺ってバカ…」みたいな(笑)。

Sadamoto: (Kotono Mistuishi) cried reading a script, for example. When Anno-san heard that - guts pose! (laughing)

Masayuki: What episode was that?

Sadamoto: 25.

Takekuma: Misato's voice actress cried reading the script?

Sadamoto: So Anno did a guts pose. The supervisor of the manga also cried [reading it], and when Anno heard that, he did another guts pose (laughing). He was victorious, because two members of society had been reduced to tears. However, after it was finished, people told him various things, and he went into a state of collapse. What happened to the guts pose? (laughing)

Masayuki: When he was making episode 25 he was saying, "I'm a genius." Then after it had broadcast, he came out of his room looking dazed. "Why did I make such a strange thing?" (laughing)

Sato: The last episode was the same, wasn't it?

Masayuki: Well, he didn't say anything about the last episode. Just with episode 25, he seemed to be extremely pleased with it. Then when he saw the broadcast, it was like, "I'm an idiot..." (laughing)
Last edited by 1731298478 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Reichu » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:01 pm

Looks like a fluent translation for "guts pose" would be "fist pump". Kind of disappointed that it's not Berserk-related. :tongue:

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Re: Original/Broadcast Episodes 25/26

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Postby Cookie H Wilson » Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:41 pm

What about the fact I read somewhere in which it was said that The End Of Evangelion was supposed to be a completely different feature film set in the future pretty similar to Attack on Titan, in which the population lived protected by an enormous AT Field and kids where getting inside Evas with no entry plugs, mainly loosing their human features if staying to long inside?

Does somebody know anything about it?

I read it on the Italian Wiki page for the end of Eva: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion:_The_End_of_Evangelion#cite_note-18
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Re: Original/Broadcast Episodes 25/26

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Postby robersora » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:06 pm

^
I remember that too... It was mentioned in some interview. There was the plan for EoE and another movie with the setting you've described.... I can't find it. But I know, it's real.
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Re: Original/Broadcast Episodes 25/26

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Postby Joseki » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:26 pm

Numbers transleted an interview on the matter reported by Minna no Eva Fan in this post.
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Re: Original/Broadcast Episodes 25/26

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:22 pm

Could this be taken to imply that Gendo once had a Captain Nemo style Heroic Sacrifice ending?

I could see him doing that indeed I had him set on this path for CotP before Q happened & the resulting moping set be on a different path.

In the end it might be more interesting to go a different path rather than recreate a previous thing with the redemption, wouldn't have fit the directions things ended up going.
Even in 26' there's this "thank you father" line at the end which I personally still ascribe to eoTV having Gendo's plan. (The whole "giant Rei was a later addition" bit seems amenable to that)

I mean in the end Anno always goes through 100 variants of everything. He could have started EoE with the intention of giving EoTV fancy graphics and still wind up with a subtly different diverging story simply b/c he'd have been in a different mindset & ended up getting different new ideas as he went along with ít.
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Re: Original/Broadcast Episodes 25/26

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Postby Cookie H Wilson » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:34 am

View Original PostJoseki wrote:Numbers transleted an interview on the matter reported by Minna no Eva Fan in this post.

Thanks man!
�Smash the control images. Smash the control machine.�
― William S. Burroughs


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