Did Q Fail Thematically?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Did Q Fail Thematically?

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Postby ancapevageek » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:45 pm

Jo-Ha-Kyu-Repeat

1.xx and 2.xx were successful in keeping with the JHK theme Anno was going for. 1.xx certainly was a slow start to the new series an 2.x rapidly escalated the tension.

The Kyu concept is described by wikipedia as: "...a rapid conclusion. All loose ends are tied up, and the play returns to an auspicious setting."

Certain aspects of 1.xx and 2.xx have been concluded (read as abandoned) but not all was concluded, obviously, the loose ends were not tied up, and the story has not been returned to as an auspicious setting. I mean, is an apocalyptic Earth really auspicious in any sense of the word? Shinji's mindset? His relationship with the other characters? What's so positive about any of that?

Really, the only thing that could be said in defense of Q, in terms of it's role in the JHK dramatic structure is that the previous story did indeed end rapidly. So rapidly that it was just dropped.

What say you EGF?
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:49 pm

When the Jo-Ha-Kyu structure was announced back in 2006 the movies were all supposed to be done by 2008 with 3.0 and Final being a single release.

That plan got kicked out the door long ago. That's probably why it's not 急Kyu but Q Kyu.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:50 pm

I don't see why we would have the story's loose ends concluded in Q when we have one last movie to finish things. It would make sense from the entire NME standpoint, but then again Q was originally supposed to be shown side by side with FINAL.
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Postby ancapevageek » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:52 pm

It's not ninth in the series either!
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:00 pm

Re-reading the Jo-Ha-Kyu wiki article and HOLY FUCKING SHIT


This same conception was later adapted into jōruri and kabuki, where the plays are often arranged into five acts according to the same rationales. Takemoto Gidayū, the great jōruri chanter, was the first to describe the patterns or logic behind the five acts, which parallel as well the five categories of Noh which would be performed across a day.[3]

He described the first act as "Love"; the play opens auspiciously, using gentle themes and pleasant music to draw in the attention of the audience. The second act is described as "Warriors and Battles" (shura). Though it need not contain actual battle, it is generally typified by heightened tempo and intensity of plot. The third act, the climax of the entire play, is typified by pathos and tragedy. The plot achieves its dramatic climax. Takemoto describes the fourth act as a michiyuki (journey), which eases out of the intense drama of the climactic act, and often consists primarily of song and dance rather than dialogue and plot. The fifth act, then, is a rapid conclusion. All loose ends are tied up, and the play returns to an auspicious setting.[3]


He described the first act as "Love"; the play opens auspiciously, using gentle themes and pleasant music to draw in the attention of the audience.

Recycling and enhancing the original in 1.0 to draw the attention of the audience.

The second act is described as "Warriors and Battles" (shura). Though it need not contain actual battle, it is generally typified by heightened tempo and intensity of plot.

This also fits 2.0

The third act, the climax of the entire play, is typified by pathos and tragedy. The plot achieves its dramatic climax.

We certainly got our tragedy

Takemoto describes the fourth act as a michiyuki (journey), which eases out of the intense drama of the climactic act, and often consists primarily of song and dance rather than dialogue and plot.

Journey? Like Ikari Shinji wanderig around as the preview promises?
Instrumentality would sure as hell qualify for SONG AND DANCE

The fifth act, then, is a rapid conclusion. All loose ends are tied up, and the play returns to an auspicious setting.

Loose ends are tied up? We're never getting this.

Rebuild confirmed for being 4 movies only.
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Postby ancapevageek » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:03 pm

View Original PostTMBounty_Hunter wrote:Re-reading the Jo-Ha-Kyu wiki article and HOLY FUCKING SHIT





Recycling and enhancing the original in 1.0 to draw the attention of the audience.


This also fits 2.0


We certainly got our tragedy


Journey? Like Ikari Shinji wanderig around as the preview promises?
Instrumentality would sure as hell qualify for SONG AND DANCE


Loose ends are tied up? We're never getting this.

Rebuild confirmed for being 4 movies only.


Ha is acts 2,3, and 4. Wheras Jo is act one and kyu is act 5. Unless i read the wiki wrong.
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:09 pm

Ignore the Jo-Ha-Kyu names. Focus on the description of the 5 parts.


Also this whole mention of SONG AND DANCE for the fourth part......this is probably why Khara started experimenting with motion capture....

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Postby esselfortium » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:10 pm

View Original PostTMBounty_Hunter wrote:
Takemoto describes the fourth act as a michiyuki (journey), which eases out of the intense drama of the climactic act, and often consists primarily of song and dance rather than dialogue and plot.



If Final turns out to be a musical with dance numbers, I will rescind everything bad I ever said about the Rebuild of Evangelion project.

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Postby ancapevageek » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:11 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:If Final turns out to be a musical with dance numbers, I will rescind everything bad I ever said about the Rebuild of Evangelion project.


The piano scene makes perfect sense now.
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Postby WunderBah » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:18 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:I don't see why we would have the story's loose ends concluded in Q when we have one last movie to finish things. It would make sense from the entire NME standpoint, but then again Q was originally supposed to be shown side by side with FINAL.


I remembered this, weren't both suppose to be shown last year?

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Postby Deva Victrix » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:27 am

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:If Final turns out to be a musical with dance numbers, I will rescind everything bad I ever said about the Rebuild of Evangelion project.


I just got a horrible image of Shinji and the gang doing the Haruhi dance.

I need HELP, guys. :bigeyes:
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:35 am

View Original PostWunderBah wrote:I remembered this, weren't both suppose to be shown last year?

The original schedule was downright hilarious.
1.0 was supposed to be Summer 2007.
2.0 was supposed to be early 2008.
3.0 + Final double feature for late 2008.

Date crept slowly for each installment until Final was officially announced as a seperate movie from Q on December 31st, 2011 with a tentative release for 2013.



And going once again for the SONG AND DANCE thing...it makes more and more sense the more I think about it.
It perfectly explains Eva 8+2.
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The real reason for that is 8+2 is part of psychedelic dance number where it will keep splitting and merging into the two Evas while seducing and destroying its enemies.
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Postby JoeD80 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:30 am

View Original PostTMBounty_Hunter wrote:When the Jo-Ha-Kyu structure was announced back in 2006 the movies were all supposed to be done by 2008 with 3.0 and Final being a single release.

The original trailer had 4 labels: "序-破-急-?"

View Original PostTMBounty_Hunter wrote:That's probably why it's not 急Kyu but Q Kyu.

急 and Q aren't different things.

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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:14 am

View Original PostJoeD80 wrote:The original trailer had 4 labels: "序-破-急-?"

The original structure specifically mentioning the 3.0+Final as a double feature was announced in September 2006.
The first teaser trailer did not come out until February 2007 and didn't have the 序-破-急-?.
It only had "1.0 2.0 3.0(仮) FINAL(予定)"

It was the second teaser from April 2007 that added the 序-破-急-? on top of the previous trailer's numbers.


View Original PostJoeD80 wrote:急 and Q aren't different things.

They still deliberately switched them up for some crazy reason.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:08 am

The puns between 急 (kyu), the number 9 (kyu in Japanese), and Q are scattered all over the movie but I'd be damned if I figured out what was "Quickening".

If Eva-01 is supposed to be "Quickening" (as in the stage where a foetus moves before birth) then I'd be wondering what it's supposed to transition into. My only guess is that since it took around 14 years for the Angels to be born, that the additional time taken is for Eva-01 to morph into a new Angelic being at its own sweet pace.

Speculation aside, I have no idea why they changed the title.
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Postby JoeD80 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:05 pm

I think that refers to Eva 13 when they cut it out of it's shell or whatever it is.

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Postby Azathoth » Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:38 pm

the quickening fetus is Shinji, who is repeatedly reborn again and again throughout the movie, getting less enthusiastic about it everytime until finally Mari and Asuka have to caesarean him back into the world.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:36 pm

Well, I'll give an argument that "Q" can still be thematically in line with the Jo, Ha, and Kyu set up, and that "Q" is actually everything all tied up within terms of Shinji's plot. After all, even back when "Jo" was being marketed and advertised, there was going to be a 4th film after the conclusion of the "Kyu" moment anyway. So it was never thought of to be a true conclusion within terms off where the story needed to end. But it's probably where Shinji's plot ends.

If you think of Evangelion (whether it's NGE or NTE) as a story about Shiinji piloting the Eva Unit in order to defeat the Angels and save the world, then that most certainly gets resolved by the end of "Ha" and the beginning of "Q," when Rei says they she'll make sure Shinji will never need to pilot Eva again. This is exactly what is proven in "Q." The whole plot about Shinji needed to Pilot an Eva is concluded. It's over. Those loose ends revolving around Shinji needing to pilot have been "tied up."

Sure, Shinji pilots an Eva Unit anyway, but only because he's terribly confused. He didn't need to do that in order to protect the world anymore. Asuka and Mari were doing that for him. Yui and Rei II somehow made Unit 01 have a 0% sync ratio. Just like Rei set out to do at the end of Ha, whether it happened the way she had intended to or not, she made it so Shinji no longer needs to pilot Eva.

The entire plot of a Shinji-centered Eva is finished. Shinji just refuses to believe that his involvement, his "plot," as it were, has really concluded. Sure, there are unanswered things about the story elsewhere, but they're neither here nor there within terms of what Shinji's doing. It's all about Gendo, Seele, and Wille at that point.

At least, that's what's going through my head at the moment. I'm not sure if I believe it yet or not, but it's definitely something that I'll keep thinking about and thinking through for a while.

Also, what TMBounty_Hunter is posting excites me. I'm starting to see that as well.

God, I love NTE so far!

View Original PostTMBounty_Hunter wrote:Also this whole mention of SONG AND DANCE for the fourth part......this is probably why Khara started experimenting with motion capture....

I AM STARTING TO SEE THINGS

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Wait, like, they're honest to God experimenting with plugging an actor into into a computer with a motion-capture suit? Can I have a source, please? This excites me to no end.
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:14 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Wait, like, they're honest to God experimenting with plugging an actor into into a computer with a motion-capture suit? Can I have a source, please? This excites me to no end.

Yes. Actual proper motion capture.

When the BD Booklet rattles off the quick explanations about the making-of stuff (layout, animatio, etc) the last thing it mentions is "Motion Capture + Virtual Camera"

relevant part  SPOILER: Show

Image


From the katakana alone you get mentions of Stuntmen, wire work, trampolines.

While the Rebuild of Evangelion 3.33 making-of feature doesn't have the actual stuntman or skeleton raw footage that we so often see in other places, it does have the earlier tests and iterations of the preview 08:17-08:22

SPOILER: Show

Image
Image
Image
Image


Furthermore the June 2013 Eva article in CG World has an interview with Tetsuo Ohya about the motion capture they did at Toho Studios.

SPOILER: Show

Image
Image
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:11 pm

That's effing amazing. This is why I wanted someone to translate the booklet. I can't read Japanese.

Guess I'll just have to wait for Funi's release. :rolleyes: :D
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