The Idiot Ball in Q - Lazy Writing or Thematically Poignant?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:47 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:No, if there was an Idiot Ball, it was at the end of the movie, and collectively held by Shinji for no listening to Kaworu's pleas to don't touch the spears, Kaworu for not better explaining before sortieing why they absolutely need a LoL and a LoC, and not two LoL, and Asuka for acting like a raging berserker and not trying a single second to explain to Shinji why he shouldn't touch these spears, even thought he was willing to talk.

Well, I'm not too sure Shinji was willing to talk either. He did after all hit the girl.
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Postby Charsi » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:17 pm

I felt like it was more that he threw the Eva away after it powered down. After all, what should he do. Set her down gently?

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Postby Conspicuous » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:20 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Well, I'm not too sure Shinji was willing to talk either. He did after all hit the girl.

And he only did so after she ran out of power and was essentially "helpless".
That was kinda mean. :wink:

View Original PostCharsi wrote:I felt like it was more that he threw the Eva away after it powered down. After all, what should he do. Set her down gently?

Just remove your arm and let her fall to the ground. That would just be her problem then.
Actually bitch-slapping her was just 'cause he was angry about Asuka's cluelessness. Also note about how he talks about how he's doing it for Kaworu and to get Misato's approval again, but as for Asuka? Pfft, who cares about what she thinks.


Either way, I'd wager that Asuka's cry for help was less of a tactical decision and more a last-ditch prayer for help after all her options to actually fight were exhausted.
She was just about to die, so taking the teeny-tiny chance that he still has some sort of awareness inside the giant monster-robot was worth a shot. Especially since Asuka's god was a little more physical than most.

It may seem out of line with her previous characterization, but that only means that she had a chance to learn something and develop a little.
It sure beats dying, at any rate.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:21 pm

View Original PostCharsi wrote:I felt like it was more that he threw the Eva away after it powered down. After all, what should he do. Set her down gently?

Or, if he were actually willing to, actually talk about why she felt like he shouldn't pull the spears out. It's not like she would be fighting him anymore, and instead both of them could sit down with Kaworu have have a hear-to-heart about the dangers of pulling on a spear you don't know is yours.

But, nope! Shinji isn't open for a discussion about the issue. Instead he's gonna knock a chick while she's down and march right up onto Lilith's back to steal him some Earth-restoring spears. Because that's the only reason why he entered the Eva Unit. If he doesn't to that, then his reasons for getting in there and risking his best-friend's life in the process were all for nothing.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:57 pm

No, actually that moment represent all the cruel irony of the scene : before that Shinji was trying to explain to Asuka why he was piloting again, which was answered by her trying impale her with a giant glaive, and at one point actually manage to explain why he's doing it... to which she respond that he truly is a little brat, at which point Shinji finally starts to lose his calm and start attacking with the RS Hoppers instead of just getting of the defensive, it's the point where she proved in his eyes that she's truly "clueless" and decided that talking wasn't an option anymore.

So when in the end her battery was depleted, instead of trying again to talk to her, he bitch-slapped her out of frustration(she tried to impale him for the past 10 minutes), really from the moment he said "you're clueless" all chances to resolve the situation by dialog was over, as a nice parallel with the first time he used this line to Misato when he took his decision to get out with Rei Q.

And Asuka had a chance to resolve everything : if instead of saying that he really is a little brat, meaning that she definitively rejects everything he has to say, she took the opportunity to explain why touching these spears was a bad idea, all of this could have be prevented, maybe.

And that was a shared Idiot Ball moment.
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Postby Azathoth » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:19 pm

You're right that the accusations of cluelessness are parallel: in both cases Shinji establishes a prejudicial view of the situation without any especially strong evidence to support it ("I saved Rei"/"If I use two spears I can fix the world") and when evidence that should lead him to second-guess his prejudice and reexamine the situation presents itself (Misato's violently negative reaction to Unit 09 and denial that what Shinji thinks is Rei is Rei/two spears being identical rather than different), he just kind of ignores that it's not really consistent and insists on trying to apply his pre-decided course of action anyway (goes with Rei/pulls the spears), over the extremely vocal objections of pretty much everyone else in the whole fucking movie. It's pretty troublesome behavior and I don't think Asuka should be blamed in particular for not trying to talk him down nice and calm-like since, for all she knows, he is seconds away from killing them all and she has a gigantic fucking robot with which to facilitate her communications.

The fact that Shinji does not, himself, intuit that getting into a never-before-used and technologically unique Eva and using it with the intent of wielding magical alien weaponry to fix everything wrong in the entire world (by a means that is never even slightly elucidated to him and can only really make sense to someone who's seen EoE!) is a bad idea kind of backs up Asuka's decision to not even bother arguing. Shinji's already demonstrated that he's very resistant to arguments that contradicts his preconceptions and since he wasn't willing to buy "don't do this, i don't know what will happen" when it comes from Kaworu, a person he actually likes and trusts, why would he be willing to buy it from Asuka?
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:19 pm

Freaky: In your post here you seem to forget one minor detail: Fuyutsuki knows, and specifically commented upon, the fact that Rei is in Unit 01 with Yui. I can't think of any reason why Wille wouldn't know that as well (that determination was likely made soon after N3I) and that means your whole line of reasoning falls apart. Ritsuko's line in Ha doesn't matter because Wille knows Rei is in there somewhere. But they also know her physical form didn't come back, unlike Shinji's, and we're left to conclude they told a kinda-sorta truth and just didn't get the chance to explain the rest about Rei's soul.

Also, we can't look beyond Shinji's character in Q because the movie's all about him. The best we can do is look at hints of character development in others (which is shockingly better than they got with more screentime in Ha) and engage in some idle speculation.

Charsi: I think you're spot on in your assessment of Wille and why their actions were underwhelming. They're a paramilitary group that's taking on a chessmaster like Gendo, you gotta figure they plan things out. The fact they didn't when it came to Shinji is a pretty big hole.

Az: In fairness she doesn't know about his interaction with Kaworu, but OTOH she doesn't really need to -- between 3I and his flight from the Wunder she already has all the evidence she needs to know what an obstinate little shit he can be. The proof is in her new name for him.
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Postby kboyrulez12345 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:20 pm

@Bagheera, I would like a clear answer, just so I can understand you and see your point of view. Okay, since it's not about the fact that the Willie crewman's emotions could be the reason why they treat Shinji this way, as you say it's not about the emotions.

So what is it about? Is it from a director's standpoint?

Edit: It's not that I'm trying to not understand you btw.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:50 pm

View Original Postkboyrulez12345 wrote:@Bagheera, I would like a clear answer, just so I can understand you and see your point of view. Okay, since it's not about the fact that the Willie crewman's emotions could be the reason why they treat Shinji this way, as you say it's not about the emotions.


I don't understand why you keep asking about this. The problem is not that the Wille crew has emotions (as most human beings do). The problem is that . . . well, Charsi already laid out out quite nicely on page seven, so go read his posts and quit bugging me about this.
Last edited by Bagheera on Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby kboyrulez12345 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:55 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I don't understand why you keep asking about this. The problem is not that the Wille crew has emotions (as most human beings do). The problem is that . . . well, Charsi already laid out out quite nicely on past seven, so go read his posts and quit bugging me about this.


Okay, now I see where your getting at. And I admit, it's a valid point. It is possible that Anno could have saved the character flaws of Willie treating Shinji cruelly. From a directional standpoint, Willie acting logical in this movie and saving the character flaw and interactions for the next movie would have actually been better now that I think about it. They still have their emotional flaws, but being in a post-apocalyptic world for 14 years with experience would have at least led them to do the logical thing first.

Speaking of the 14 years thing though, looking at Charsi's post, we're not exactly sure if Willie has been around those whole 14 years, so that could contribute more to there emotional flaws rather than the logical thing to do, seeing as how they could not have gotten as much experience behind their belt as Charsi is making it out to be.

With that being said though, all that equipment surely couldn't have been built in a span of a few months, so it's not a stretch to say they've been around for years. As to how many years they could get the experience to fight an organization trying to destroy the world and restore it for them to do logical things, it's a moot point. Even with experienced people like the majority of the old Nerv staff, I still say there could be some development left to fill.

Also Bagheera, I wasn't arguing the point that they had emotions to begin with. I was arguing the point that they were letting their emotions get in the way of logical reasoning.
Last edited by kboyrulez12345 on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Giji Shinka » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:10 am

One thing: does it really matter now, how unprepared and peculiarly/foolishly everyone were to/treated Shinji? Wille were able to atone what they did by stopping the 4th impact.

Shinji on the other hand still has to atone stuff for causing the 3rd.

From a directional standpoint, Willie acting logical in this movie and saving the character flaw and interactions for the next movie would have actually been better now that I think about it.
True.
But that would have felt too forced. IMO.


But being in a post-apocalyptic world for 14 years with experience would have at least led them to do the logical thing first.

But you know, they have been heavily traumatized by many events, (Moon falling down from the sky, everything turning into red desert, people turning into red Eva's, people losing families.(Brothers, sisters, cousins, parents, friends, lovers ect.)Previous dreams have been completely destroyed. Houses, everything they have owned are gone. They have lost everything. (Plus, some depression involved too) Current generation can never have a normal life. Ever.
They have to devote their whole life for rebuilding the world again, so that future generations can live normally.

And then suddenly, they find in the entry plug the guy who was responsible for all this pain and suffering.(I think that even Misato thought that he was dead) What mixes their emotions even more is the fact that he's a teenager. Misato obviously doesn't know what to do with him. (She also feels guilt when she cheered for him back in 2.0 ect.) Also, they know that Shinji doesn't know that he's the reason for impact and stuff, (And maybe they even know that he did not do it intentionally, but they have mixed feelings that: They probably know that he used "he's body to do it", but not his mind. Still....They HAVE to hate him, because human nature is/works like that) so they were not full-mad when it comes to that part, but at the same time they were frustrated when he didn't know stuff before interrogation room scene. So much feels involved.

The experience doesn't help, because this is probably the first time they have to deal with a kid who has caused an apocalypse. So, doing full logical thing is still possible? Mmm....No?
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:20 am

@ Az : about the first instance of the "you're clueless" that was quite the contrary : every objective fact was saying that Misato was lying to him :
- "14 years have passed" : but Asuka looks exactly the same, and what proves me that this chick is really Toji's sister 14 years older?
- "Rei is no more" : cue Rei appearing one minute later piloting an almost perfect copy of EVA-00

Of course we know that something is fishy because we saw Earth turned red during operation US, we saw NGE and EoE and all the scenes between Gendo and SEELE and Kozo to know that he's a bastard with his own agenda that includes the end of the world, we saw all the hints that Rei and Yui are somehow related(like the diner between her and Gendo in 2.0)

But Shinji didn't saw any of it, and objectively what makes more sense : that 14 years have passed but for some reason Asuka hasn't changed and that Rei in EVA-00 isn't Rei in EVA-00, or simply that Misato is lying to him? Worst, she also admitted that now she's in an organization whose goal is to destroy NERV, but didn't had the time to explain that NERV are now the bad guys and that the Angels are no more, remember that one of the first things he asks to Rei Q when he goes to visit her in her "room" is "Why is Misato fighting Father instead of the Angels?", for him the Angels are still around and NERV is still trying to protect the world.

Like I said, at the moment Mark.09 appeared short of killing or restraining him, nothing would have prevented Shinji from getting out, simply because he don't have enough information and that everything points that Misato is lying.



Now for the second time, I agree that he should have been more suspicious about Kaworu's plan, if only because he didn't explained to him what those wo spears were exactly going to do and thus why having two of the same screws completely the plan. Personally I think that Kaworu did it on purpose because his plan did include Instrumentality and that Shinji would be against it, but he thinks that it's nonetheless the only path for Shinji's happiness.

But OTOH he has seen truly insane things : the fact he stayed 14 tanged inside his EVA, a giant cyborg skeleton bird used as a giant flying flagship, the world turned to core material, giant headless zombies Evas, the Moon crashed on Earth with its own atmosphere, core-like grid and giant bloodstains while spinning widely on he surface, the fact Rei is a clone and witnessing dozen of severed heads of other clones, or the giant fucking mouth that grew on Earth's surface...
From here are spears that can terraform the world back into an inhabitable shape that far-fetched? Hell Kaworu could have proposed time travel and I'm sure that most of the audience would have bought it!

Besides Shinji has always been someone passive, never really searching for people's motives or details about why he's asked to do something, as seen with his conversation with Misato in 1.11 where she asked him why he didn't asked what the hell was that giant thing(Sachiel), or lampshaded by Ritsuko during his VR training.
That's a big flaw he always had, that made him more easily manipulable, and that's something he will need to work on in Final if he ever hopes to become a better person.

Another on like you said is his extreme stubbornness once he made up his mind(like when he resigned after Bardiel), but he has been shown to be able to change his mind if the right arguments are presented to him, we saw an instance of that in each movies :
- in 1.0 when Misato showed him Lilith, explaining why they need him to pilot and protect Tokyo-3
- in 2.0 when he witnessed Rei being eaten by Zeruel, showing that running away won't make his problems disappear and that other people still can suffer from the consequences of his choices
- in 3.0 when he decided to never pilot again, until Kaworu asked him to trust him and go pilot one last time to save the Lilin, and made him trust him by removing the DSS Choker to put it himself

It's possible that Shinji was so desperate and insane that he wouldn't have listened to Asuka had she explained to him why he shouldn't touch those spears, but she could have at least tried, and that would have made her completely entitled to beat the shit out of him and go on full-assault, but by jumping to conclusions that he wouldn't listen to her, she passed for an enraged berserker who contributed to bring Shinji's extremely embrittled mind to the breaking point where he would pull out the spears whatever Kaworu told him.
And I'm sure that it was all according to Gendo's plan.


Now I'm not saying hat Shinji is totally blameless in this, even though Gendo drove him half-insane and exploited his flaws, Shinji is still the one who is at the biggest fault for triggering 4I, what I'm saying is that Asuka and Kaworu had too their part in it, albeit smaller.
And that's was I call this fight a shared Idiot Ball moment, because it would have been needed is that at least one of the three acted rationally to defuse this whole situation, or at least give it a chance to be defused, yet no one did.


And in the end Gendo is the great victor. :emogendo:
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Postby Zoop » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:30 pm

^ This

Like I mentioned before, I absolutely love the movies, but some scenes seem a bit forced as if everyone is activily helping Gendo. Their words speak otherwise, their actions follow Gendo's plan to the letter. This always bugged me.

There is one point where Gendo is actually surprised and that is when Unit01 refuses the dummy plug. Why are you refusing me, Yui? Was this just acting for the rest of the Nerve crew to see? Or was he actually expecting Unit01 to dash out with a dummy plug and destroy Zeruel? This scene seems to imply so, but when Unit01 with Shinji and Rei goes God mode, it is all according to plan? Do the Dead Sea Scrolls predict the future, and no matter what people do, they can't deviate from the master plan? Gendo also says something cryptic about rewriting Seele's scenario, what if this is more litteral? Could such rewriting change a Lance of Cassius into a Longinus? Maybe I should start a thread on this ...

Gendo's apparant future predicting-skills and every character's stubborn actions (mainly those of Shinji, but as ElMariachi explains, many others have the same faults) seem to imply that whatever happens, is meant to happen and cannot change (which makes the title you can (not) redo more interesting, are we witnessing the same events for a second time, and nothing actually changes?).

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Postby Charsi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:28 pm

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:But you know, they have been heavily traumatized by many events, (Moon falling down from the sky, everything turning into red desert, people turning into red Eva's, people losing families.(Brothers, sisters, cousins, parents, friends, lovers ect.)Previous dreams have been completely destroyed. Houses, everything they have owned are gone. They have lost everything. (Plus, some depression involved too) Current generation can never have a normal life. Ever.
They have to devote their whole life for rebuilding the world again, so that future generations can live normally.


Yes, but all this happened 14 years ago. It may sound ridiculous to say this, but after 14 years some people will kind of come to terms with things and reach a level of acceptance - they won't be okay, they won't always be calm, but they've had 14 years to acclimatize.

You have people like Sakura, who grew up in this and barely remember anything different. Even Shinji doesn't remember the ocean ever being blue, or smelling like fish.

It's what has struck me odd about the way the crew react. They act like it happened 14 days ago or something. Sure, meeting Shinji again sucks and brings all those feelings back to the surface to some degree. And sure, there's a flash of rage or anger or resentment (Asuka's a FAR better demonstration: a flash of anger that subsides). But we're talking about people who have lived it for 14 years. They're wearing new uniforms and being airlifted supplies, so things can't be completely bleak. I don't see any sign that they've been tempered, at all. It's still all raw and painful even though it's been 14 years. I'm not implying anyone should be okay with things; things are clearly not okay. But I kind of expect cold hatred over hot hatred if that makes sense?

I expected something different, i'm not sure. The way they react seemed a bit intense given 14 years has apparently passed. That's what seems off.

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Postby Giji Shinka » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:48 pm

View Original PostCharsi wrote:Yes, but all this happened 14 years ago. It may sound ridiculous to say this, but after 14 years some people will kind of come to terms with things and reach a level of acceptance - they won't be okay, they won't always be calm, but they've had 14 years to acclimatize.
I don't know if it's just me, but i wouldn't persoanlly get over the fact that everything has changed this drastically. even during those 14 years. It would take at least 20 years for me. And maybe something even more horrible has happened, so that they have hard time moving on. I think you are underestimating how quickly people can move on after the things they have gone through. Especially when we are talking about apocalypse.

View Original PostCharsi wrote:It's what has struck me odd about the way the crew react. They act like it happened 14 days ago or something. Sure, meeting Shinji again sucks and brings all those feelings back to the surface to some degree. And sure, there's a flash of rage or anger or resentment (Asuka's a FAR better demonstration: a flash of anger that subsides). But we're talking about people who have lived it for 14 years. They're wearing new uniforms and being airlifted supplies, so things can't be completely bleak.
The fact that we don't know how bleak everything is outside of Wille, so we can't judge yet. It could be really really bad. Well, we'll see in 4.0 how things are.

Oh, and i compressed the thoughts (That i posted previously) of Wille much better here:
SPOILER: Show
These are their emotions:
-They hate him for everything he's done, at first. (Though, the hate had lowered due to the fact that he's probably part of the Eva. And that he's most likely dead long ago.)

-Then they found him in the entry plug, alive, the hate rises. (Plus, they know that he's possible an angel, so hate grows even bigger. DSS choker was put on him for this reason most likely.)

-Then they see that he's a young innocent teenager boy, hate doesn't obviously go away, but there will be confusion and pity mixed with the hatred.

-Then they notice how clueless he is. (More pity, other emotions won't go away ofc.)

-They don't know how to treat him, as an adult/child?

-They don't seem to have guts to kill him, they probably want to, but the fact that he's a child is only reason why they don't.

- They know that Shinji doesn't know that he's the reason for the impact and stuff, so they were not "full-mad" when it comes to that part, but at the same time they were frustrated when he didn't know stuff before interrogation room scene.

-They most likely know that he did NOT do it intentionally, they know that he used "his body" to do it, not "his mind". Still....They still HAVE to hate him, because that's how human nature works.

-They already have really much pressure/responsibility on their shoulders, (You know, saving the world) so treating Shinji more better/logically didn't work that well.

-No matter how much experience they've had in the post-apocalyptic world, they don't know how to deal with a kid who caused the apocalypse. (Because this is probably the first they have to deal with someone like him? Right?)


View Original PostCharsi wrote:I expected something different, i'm not sure. The way they react seemed a bit intense given 14 years has apparently passed. That's what seems off.

Well, other Wille members reaction was understandable, because they were able to see the "Hitler" himself.
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Postby Azathoth » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:09 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:@ Az : about the first instance of the "you're clueless" that was quite the contrary : every objective fact was saying that Misato was lying to him :
- "14 years have passed" : but Asuka looks exactly the same, and what proves me that this chick is really Toji's sister 14 years older?
- "Rei is no more" : cue Rei appearing one minute later piloting an almost perfect copy of EVA-00

Of course we know that something is fishy because we saw Earth turned red during operation US, we saw NGE and EoE and all the scenes between Gendo and SEELE and Kozo to know that he's a bastard with his own agenda that includes the end of the world, we saw all the hints that Rei and Yui are somehow related(like the diner between her and Gendo in 2.0)

But Shinji didn't saw any of it, and objectively what makes more sense : that 14 years have passed but for some reason Asuka hasn't changed and that Rei in EVA-00 isn't Rei in EVA-00, or simply that Misato is lying to him? Worst, she also admitted that now she's in an organization whose goal is to destroy NERV, but didn't had the time to explain that NERV are now the bad guys and that the Angels are no more, remember that one of the first things he asks to Rei Q when he goes to visit her in her "room" is "Why is Misato fighting Father instead of the Angels?", for him the Angels are still around and NERV is still trying to protect the world.


And that's really the problem - and why Shinji, not Misato or anyone else at Wille, is the one from whom better behavior ought to have been expected. That is, Shinji doesn't realize he's in the third movie instead of the second. He doesn't interpret events on their own merits in good faith as they are presented, but in terms of whether or not they conform to his unrealistic expectations. If they don't conform, then he reconciles this problem by pretending that those who presented them are lying to him. Remember, he doesn't AT ALL debate Misato's arguments before she openly contradicts his beliefs regarding Rei - the fourteen years thing, indeed, he readily accepts as soon as he sees the situation at Nerv, even though there's nothing about the situation at Nerv that clearly shows it's been fourteen years (rather than ten, or five, or one). Of course he accepts the notion that it's been fourteen years - why in the name of God would Misato tell him this if it wasn't true? What reason does he have to believe that Misato is not on the level when she is so deadly serious throughout their encounter? No reason - except that she contradicts the understanding he has already established, and she does so in a way that robs him of his comfort object. It's natural for his character as it has been portrayed in these movies to reject that contradiction's reality as soon as a passable alternative explanation happens along - but the fact that it's natural to his character only indicates how very twisted Shinji's character has become by the time this movie gets underway.

I agree that Kaworu is intentionally letting Shinji just make assumptions so as not to have to explain his plans. I agree, also, that it isn't totally asinine for Shinji to come to the conclusion that Eva can fix his problems. In large part, Shinji's actions here are understandable and natural (though again, not acceptable or sane) because what else can he possibly do to mitigate - or at least distract himself from - the horror and guilt he feels after Kaworu reveals his sins to him? There's probably also some subtext here about how willing the audience is to accept the ridiculous sequences of events that have been occurring with a minimum of explanation in Rebuild (NGE did the same thing as well, of course).

I think that Shinji's real problem in this movie is that he invests the things that bring him happiness with so much importance that he just can't bring himself to do anything that wouldn't make him happy. Even Rebuild's Shinji will, as you point out, change his mind on some matters when presented with evidence that forces him to reassess the situation. So why, in Q, does he accept some of the arguments presented to him and refuse to accept others? It only takes the sight of Nerv for him to state his conviction that Misato was right about the fourteen-year gap - it's not as if he's completely, unflinchingly dedicated to his views. But then why won't he accept that Rei II is gone? Why won't he wait even a little while for Kaworu to clarify the situation with the spears? - I think it's because these things are what make him feel good. Rei II made him happy. It was a self-destructive (and destructive in general) happiness that played into his will to death more than anything, but it was happiness, and he is absolutely unwilling to give up that happiness until circumstances beat it out of him. It's only when Rei Q says to his face that she has no interest in his tokens of affection that he rejects his opinion of her that she is Rei II. And, similarly, Kaworu's offer of hope made him happy, and it's only when the spears plan backfires so horrifically that Kaworu is killed that he rejects his opinion that he can save the world and himself. I don't expect any other character in the movie to have figured this out about Shinji in so many words, but I do expect them to react to Shinji's actions - and his actions, as the personnel of Wille see them, have been to accuse them of lying to him when they didn't have any reason to do so and, in fact, didn't; run away from them all to join the guys who are trying to destroy the world; and then bust out the superweapons and start ranting about how he's going to show them all. Like, we understand why Shinji does these things - but they don't, and I don't blame Asuka for thinking that the most appropriate level of discourse on which to engage with him is a glaive to the head.

I liked your post because it appreciates how poorly informed everyone in this movie is. I think this is the source of the meme that "the theme of Q is miscommunication", really. The biggest theme of Q - and Rebuild as a whole - is reconciling yourself to a changing world...but the plot of Q is a breathtakingly frustrating series of poorly informed decisions made by everyone about everything, which is where I think this reading that the movie is "about" miscommunication comes in. The audience is confused about what's going on - the characters are confused about what the other characters are doing - half the characters don't even know what they're doing half the time! Of course, if everybody sat down together and explained everything in detail, most of the movie's negative consequences could have been avoided - but Anno shows that there is not always time to sit down and explain everything in detail. When Asuka drops in, the situation is already mere minutes away from apocalypse and she, as a soldier and a commander, has to make a call of what to do: does she try and talk him down, or try and take him down? The first option just doesn't have a whole lot going for it. If she keeps talking long enough, he can just smile and nod, wait for her battery to run out, and go do whatever he likes while she waits for another one. She made a decision and it was, in view of the result, probably the right one. I don't think it constitutes uncharacteristically idiotic behavior by anybody involved in the scene, really - maybe characteristically idiotic behavior from Shinji - but I've just said I don't think his problem is that he's dumb but that he won't change his mind if it would be unpleasant for him to do so.
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Postby pwhodges » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:36 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:That is, Shinji doesn't realize he's in the third movie instead of the second. He doesn't interpret events on their own merits in good faith as they are presented, but in terms of whether or not they conform to his unrealistic expectations. If they don't conform, then he reconciles this problem by pretending that those who presented them are lying to him.
[...]
the fact that it's natural to his character only indicates how very twisted Shinji's character has become by the time this movie gets underway.

If you were to wake up tomorrow and find the the whole world has changed, years have passed, and everyone hates you, would you just shrug and say "OK, I guess that's how it is" or even "What, please tell me how this happened", or would you have any doubt or confusion in your mind and be questioning whether you had understood the situation correctly? If you did have some doubt for the first few hours (and that's all we're talking of), would you then describe your character as having become horribly twisted? Be honest, now...
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Postby Fireball » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:11 pm

Seriously Az, why are you still harping on this? If this movie wants tell us that Shinji is some irrational fuckwit in that situation there is more wrong with it than just an idiot ball.
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Postby Azathoth » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:40 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:If you were to wake up tomorrow and find the the whole world has changed, years have passed, and everyone hates you, would you just shrug and say "OK, I guess that's how it is" or even "What, please tell me how this happened", or would you have any doubt or confusion in your mind and be questioning whether you had understood the situation correctly? If you did have some doubt for the first few hours (and that's all we're talking of), would you then describe your character as having become horribly twisted? Be honest, now...


If the last thing I remembered was my surroundings dissolving into an euphoric, surreal womb in which I was blissfully losing consciousness while getting it on with Rei, and then I woke up in a coffin full of LCL, I like to think I would have some degree of doubt as to whether my perceptions of reality were reliable. If I then accused the first person who attempted to explain my situation of lying to me, I think it would be at least a little unreasonable of me, don't you? Certainly it would be excusable for Shinji to doubt what is being said to him, but that isn't really what happens. He gets sick of what people are telling him and refuses to accept it - not because he's examined any real evidence to the contrary and found Misato's explanation wanting, but because he's examined what he wants to believe and found that Misato isn't playing along with it. All of which I basically said already in the post to which you're responding.

View Original PostFireball wrote:Seriously Az, why are you still harping on this? If this movie wants tell us that Shinji is some irrational fuckwit in that situation there is more wrong with it than just an idiot ball.


10/10 post right here. "Yeah, brah, why are you discussing the stupidity of things people did in Q in the thread about the stupidity of things people did in Q?" Come on, man.
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Postby Fireball » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:31 pm

That's all implying he saw the things as the watcher did when he merged with Rei let alone know what was really happening to him. Nah, I just don't see it. If it's about Shinji wanting to escape reality and bend it like he sees it fit there are certainly other scenes that bring this across.
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