Obligatory video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apAUjYHlIG4

Around the 1:20 mark, Rei's voice is heard talkign with Shinji briefly. It's apparent that only HE can hear Rei's voice.

Rei asks where Shinji is and Shinji, frusturated, claims he's 'right here', right before ReiQ busts into the interrogation room.

Soooo... Does ReiQ have some kind of latent telephathic power to talk to or find Shinji? Or was this the 'ghost' of Rei II trying to reach him, coincidentally (or not) right before the Ayanami-type bursts in?

There still no actual answer. There are some theories about the voice coming from ReiII that is still inside Eva01's core, so having no actual relation with the arriving of ReiQ, but yeah.

@0:31 Is Shinji talking or thinking? Anno conveniently covers Shinji's mouth with the S-DAT when he puts things together that Rei was holding the S-DAT when she crossed from Eva-00's core to Eva-01's.

Excess_Velocity wrote:Soooo... Does ReiQ have some kind of latent telephathic power to talk to or find Shinji? Or was this the 'ghost' of Rei II trying to reach him, coincidentally (or not) right before the Ayanami-type bursts in?

Rei possesses the ability to psychically communicate -- with Shinji at least. Such an ability was implied in NGE, but Rebuild ends up making it more or less explicit. I'd like to lay this out in full this time.

Firstly in Rebuild 1.0, after Shinji's first defeat by Ramiel, while Shinji is asleep in hospital, he has his second strange Dusk-lit train dream sequence.


The general understanding is that this train is a mental construct of Shinji's, representing his feelings of isolation and abandonment. Rei's entrance inside is a huge hint that she is placing herself there in some way.

The real evidence that this is actually Rei and not just a projection of Shinji's mind comes from Evangelion 2.0.


Shinji then wakes in a room filled with Nerv Security men. Given this, we could be tempted to see the second dream as a simple fantasy. However, Rei's later actions makes this unlikely. Rei clearly displays knowledge of the two dreams in later scenes.




Recall that there is no out-of-dreamscape reason for Rei to give the SDAT this much attention. Outside of these, it resembles Asuka's game player, or Ritsuko's lab coat -- simply an item Shinji carries. But Rei goes to extraordinary lengths to find and keep it.

More telling are Rei's words during the fight.

[wkimg width=320]Eva2-22_C1572B.jpg[/wkimg]
Rei: Just to make sure that Ikari won't have to pilot an Eva anymore
For that I'll.....

Along with the SDAT, Rei is displaying a tremendous amount of insight into the usually taciturn Shinji. Rei -- and indeed the audience -- are given little such insight into Shinji outside of the dreamscapes. Rei is displaying knowledge that she has learned during the above dusk-lit train sequence because she was actually present during them. Rei-II can psychically communicate with Shinji -- in his dreams at least.

And of course, then we have Rei-Q, who explicitly communicates with Shinji during 3.0. No-one else hears her (suitably reverberated) voice, and as soon as Shinji calls out, the Mark.09 breaches the correct room -- the correct side of the room -- that he is in.

The evidence for Rei's abilities is not immediately obvious, but it is there. The conclusion becomes all but inescapable by the time 3.0 rolls around.

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:huge post

Damn nice find there. All that stuff flew right over my head. So Rei DOES posses psychic abilities then, at least so it's implied. A bit odd they're never directly called attention to (perhaps its something Rei sees no need to ever have told anyone else about for some reason). Rei II would definitely have this ability then, and Rei Q probably too.

And in the thread you posted, it's apparently implied that Toji is somehow 'in on it', without having developed the ability to the extent Rei has, so perhaps it's something that can be sub-concious or even trained for.

Verrrry interesting.

@ObsessiveMathsFreak

That was an excellent post indeed! I also missed the subtle links between Rei II and Shinji from these Rebuild scenes, even after multiple viewings. I was especially intrigued by this revelation of Rei II's unique access to Shinji's unconscious mind, or as you say, dream scape.

To respond to the thread topic, 3.0's scene of Rei Q retrieving Shinji from Wunder reminded me of the scene in EoE where Rei III rejects Gendo's request with the words, "Ikari-Kun is calling me."

Again, the scene shows that Rei possesses a supernatural awareness of Shinji's mindset (although Shinji has no such connection to Rei), and in both instances Rei acts as a 'guardian angel' of sorts to Shinji, to relieve his anguish in the beginning of Air' and to rescue him from Wille in 3.0.

I'm not sure where I was going with that, actually. Rei and Lilith in the Eva universe have always confused me: I'm never sure whether Rei is simply a lonely girl or something far more mysterious/ alien.

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:Brilliance

Wow....I can't believe I haven't been able to put this together until now. This is actually quite awesome and could be a cool plot point for Final.

Awesome analysis OMF!
I always supposed that Rei found the SDAT by accident and kept it because it was a possession of Shinji(same way as with Gendo's glasses), but your interpretation with the Bridge Bunnies' comment that she has been acting strange makes perfectly sense!

Besides it's worth noting that Rei having telepathic power was hinted in NGE, and outright shown in the manga when Rei telepathically enter in contact with EVA-01 when it absorbed Shinji after the fight against Zeruel(we even see her making the "praying pose")

Rei having psychic power is a clear hint that there is something special with her, maybe that she has Lilith's soul like in NGE?

As for why Shinji heard Rei's voice exactly when Mark.09 attacked, I have a theory :
When ReiQ attacked, her objective was to find and retrieve Shinji, so logically when she made contact with the Wunder, her though must have been "Where is Ikari-kun?", meaning in what part of the ship he's situated? And due to the fact she and Rei II are identical clones, there is a mental link between the two(illustrated when Rei Q saw a vision of Rei II in school uniform when she was in the LCL vat) when Rei Q though "Where is Ikari-kun?", Rei II inside EVA-01 received the though and acted as a "relay" by making a telepathic contact with Shinji and broadcasting ReiQ's thoughts.

Cue Shinji earing in his head "Ikari-kun, were are you?"(ReiQ's though received and broadcasted by Rei II) repeatedly. And when he responded the "call", Rei II pinpointed his position in the Wunder(she absorbed within the ship's new control system, that wouldn't be really difficult to have a plan of the installation!) and transmitted it to ReiQ, explaining how she could know exactly where Shinji was.


Now the question is if this "telepathic broadcasting" was a conscious move from Rei II(and if so, why? Sis she wanted that Shinji learn the truth by himself, or did she though that Gendo was guy to follow?) or not.

peripateia wrote:To respond to the thread topic, 3.0's scene of Rei Q retrieving Shinji from Wunder reminded me of the scene in EoE where Rei III rejects Gendo's request with the words, "Ikari-Kun is calling me."

Excellent point! It's also worth noting that this instance appears to be an involuntary one on Rei's part -- she "overhears" Shinji's psychic screams in Eva-01. An unusual instance, but pointing in the same general direction.

ElMariachi wrote:Cue Shinji earing in his head "Ikari-kun, were are you?"(ReiQ's though received and broadcasted by Rei II) repeatedly. And when he responded the "call", Rei II pinpointed his position in the Wunder(she absorbed within the ship's new control system, that wouldn't be really difficult to have a plan of the installation!) and transmitted it to ReiQ, explaining how she could know exactly where Shinji was.

I don't think we need to suppose that Rei-Q's thoughts were being broadcast by Rei-II. Why not simply assume that such a psychic connection to Shinji is an inherent ability of all of the Ayanami series? Also, not the deliberate nature of Rei-Q's calls. As with here general speech, they are curt and to the point. I believe that Rei-Q is consciously aware of this ability and has actively exploited it. The same of course, goes for Rei-II, in Rebuild and NGE.

Then the question is why the Ayanami series have this power : is it physical(like the "only 9% of our brain used" that appears in modern science-fiction to explain psychic powers) or did it comes from her soul?
If it's the second case that would relaunch the debate about where ReiQ's soul is situated, and if it's actually Rei II's soul "controlling at distance" Rei Q.

I dunno the cause of it in Eva: Q, myself. Good theories though! I always assumed Hell Train Rei and Bookend Rei (or Quantum Rei, whatever you want to call her) throughout NGE/EoE was Lilith (in the form of Rei 3), but that's neither here nor there.

I've never bought the terlepathy theory in the classic series; It's completely uneccesary and requires a lot of conjecture that can be explained more easily.

It's a dream scene, and he's seeing his idea of Rei, or something she represents in his mindscape, a bit of him which he gave her face. See also each and every pre-instrumentality EoTV scene. And we know exactly when instrumentality begins there, a telop tells us.

And whatever happened to Touji is probably more related to Bardiel than anything else... Either way, he essentially got a look into one of Shinji's dream scenes through any sort of magix. Or maybe that scene was just there to confuse us... it's one of the less intuitively explainable-ones, but to come up with "Rei is randonmly telepathic" from nowhere from just that is too much, esp. with many instances that show that Rei has very little idea of what the inside an average person's brain looks like.

Next, you're gonna tell me that all the appearances of Asuka and Misato in Shinji's dreamscapes were also literally them.
SUBTLETY, people. I hate when it's cheapened/explained away with hamfisted magix, esp when it's so freakin' cheesy as TELEPATHY OUT OF NOWHERE without any other suggestion that this even exists in that universe. *sigh*
sometimes a dreasm scene is just a dream scene, and relevant as such, ie, because of what it reveals about the characters' psyche.

A relevant bit is also that scene in ep 22 which reveals that they do, in fact, have regular conversations in trains, so no wonder that this reucurrs in his dream sequences.

Similarly, Rei picking up the SDAT player is NOT in any way an indication that she knows about it's backstory - She just wants a keepsake of Shinji and happens to spot something belonging to him in the trash. It's just something she does, as with Gendo's glasses.
the whole montage has her noticing the headphones sticking out and curiously pull it out in a somwhat counter-intuitive way, no indication of search (like other thrashcans in thee BG with signs of being searched) whatsoever.

And that he doesn't want to pilot EVA is pretty damn obvious after he left the town for that very reason - She also saw him in his hospital room after being barbecued by Ramiel, where he outright states that he's terrified of EVA-piloting. It's not a "deep insight", it's fairly obvious.

---

Of course, the whole Q thing is a whole different situation, since Rei II is currently merged with unit one, which is a transcendent being with both fruits. Or it could be a quantum!Rei (This is NOT absur conjecture, because, we litelly see dozens of similar events in EoE.), perhaps from Final Impact - we saw one back in 1.11, in a context identical to her series!counterpart, and another later shows up later in Q.

As much as I would really like the idea of Rei II being present in an "immaterial" way, still watching out for Shinji somehow (Aerith in "Advent Children", anyone?), the easiest explanation still is that

a) This was ReiQ, talking over the intercom. This was supposed to be her being audible very quietly through the walls.
b) The later quantum Rei is from FinalImpact and EVA 01's involvement in it, just like the 1.11 one. It makes more sense to assume they have the same source.

Kendrix wrote:And that he doesn't want to pilot EVA is pretty damn obvious after he left the town for that very reason - She also saw him in his hospital room after being barbecued by Ramiel, where he outright states that he's terrified of EVA-piloting. It's not a "deep insight", it's fairly obvious.

Except that happened in the last film, and Shinji has been fairly OK with piloting with the majority of this one. And even if Rei wanted to keep a souvenir of Shinji's, why the SDAT? Why bother picking it of all things out of the bin?

Kendrix wrote:Of course, the whole Q thing is a whole different situation, since Rei II is currently merged with unit one, which is a transcendent being with both fruits.

I highly doubt Shinji is hearing Rei-II's voice in 3.0. Everything about this scene and later ones points the finger directly at Rei-Q as the source of this voice.

Next, you're gonna tell me that all the appearances of Asuka and Misato in Shinji's dreamscapes were also literally them.

Er....well, one of them, yes.

SUBTLETY, people. I hate when it's cheapened/explained away with hamfisted magix, esp when it's so freakin' cheesy as TELEPATHY OUT OF NOWHERE without any other suggestion that this even exists in that universe. *sigh*

Except it's not out of nowhere because Rei, in both series, demonstrates supernatural qualities and an ability to call information that can't be explained, Shinji-related and otherwise.

And of course the official manga just makes her blatantly and openly telepathic. In many continuities, the anime included, Kaworu also has something similar to ESP, and the two are incredibly similar, so...

Similarly, Rei picking up the SDAT player is NOT in any way an indication that she knows about it's backstory - She just wants a keepsake of Shinji and happens to spot something belonging to him in the trash. It's just something she does, as with Gendo's glasses.
the whole montage has her noticing the headphones sticking out and curiously pull it out in a somwhat counter-intuitive way, no indication of search (like other thrashcans in thee BG with signs of being searched) whatsoever.

Picking up the SDAT by random chance isn't sufficient, because she demonstrates that she knows what it MEANS to Shinji, and he never told her.

And that he doesn't want to pilot EVA is pretty damn obvious after he left the town for that very reason - She also saw him in his hospital room after being barbecued by Ramiel, where he outright states that he's terrified of EVA-piloting. It's not a "deep insight", it's fairly obvious.

Doesn't explain how she knows the SDAT is connected to that. She chose Gendo's glasses for an emotionally significant reason (they were ruined when he saved her life), she doesn't grab RANDOM mementos of people; that argument won't fly.

And whatever happened to Touji is probably more related to Bardiel than anything else... Either way, he essentially got a look into one of Shinji's dream scenes through any sort of magix.

Wait, so you're accepting that Touji can be randomly telepathic after contact with an Angel, but not that someone who is literally an Angel can be telepathic?

Someone who can have psychic conversations with their previous dead selves while sitting in a folding chair and according to the PSP game can be subconsciously harassed by her true self sitting in a basement, I might add.

AuraTwilight wrote:Picking up the SDAT by random chance isn't sufficient, because she demonstrates that she knows what it MEANS to Shinji, and he never told her.

How so? Does she mention somewhere that it used to be Gendo's? I remember no such thing.
She grabbed it because it used to belong to Shinji, in obvious parallel to Gendo's glasses. Is there any more explanation required?

Not like she could get her hands on any other possesion of Shinji's. It's something he always carries with him, so it's like having a part of him with her... glasses, similarly, are also something you always have on your nose.

AuraTwilight wrote:Someone who can have psychic conversations with their previous dead selves while sitting in a folding chair

Metaphorical. You tellin me all of EoTV, including the pre-instrumentality parts, are to be read literally? Next you're gonna tell me the rehearsal from Death actually happened.

AuraTwilight wrote:and according to the PSP game can be subconsciously harassed by her true self sitting in a basement, I might add.

What's in the basement is an empty shell; What's harassing Rei is in her own head. That's the scary part.

How so? Does she mention somewhere that it used to be Gendo's? I remember no such thing.
She grabbed it because it used to belong to Shinji, in obvious parallel to Gendo's glasses. Is there any more explanation required?

She connects the SDAT to Shinji's need to pilot, which is what Shinji does in the train dream. You're effectively writing it off as a coincidence, but beforeand after the train dreams Rei experiences massive character development that characters like Gendo do not understand.

The one other time she held on to something of another person's, there was an intensely specific reason for doing so; she's not going to pick up Shinji's SDAT just because it belonged to him, and you also need to explain why she took it into the Eva with her, which she never did with Gendo's glasses. Why does she connect it to Shinji's piloting complex the exact same way he does when they allegedly never talked about it?

And also, why is Shinji putting Rei in his train dreams anyway?

Metaphorical. You tellin me all of EoTV, including the pre-instrumentality parts, are to be read literally? Next you're gonna tell me the rehearsal from Death actually happened.

Okay well first of all, good luck defining what parts of EoTV are and are not pre-instrumentality (especially since there's atleast one pre-Instrumentality mind-linkage in EoE, so it's not like it matters).

Secondly, in every sequence in EoTV, as far as can be reasonably determined, everyone with a speaking role is literally that person and not an imagining of that person; why would Rei's sequence be any different?

What's in the basement is an empty shell; What's harassing Rei is in her own head. That's the scary part.

What's in the basement was capable of responding to Rei's "i'm home" with "Welcome back". Empty shells don't do that.

Sorry, but Rei did took Gendo's glasses into her Eva, twice actually : when she did the second reactivation test for Unit-00 just before operation Yashima, and during the operation proper!

But yeah the reason she kept Gendo's glasses is because he broke her while saving her, and it represent a proof that he cares about him.
But for Shinji's SDAT, what would be Rei's reason to specifically brought it with her? When she attacked Zeruel(and had the SDAT with her), she explicitly said that she was kamikazing herself so Shinji would never had to pilot again.
Now she could have known the connection between Shinji's SDAT, Gendo and his desire to never pilot again via telepathy, or she simply deducted it from the fact Shinji resigned and happened to accidentally find the SDAT and decided to keep it as a remainder for the second person in the world who saved her, thus proving that he really cares for her.

Same thing for the fact it's always Rei who talks to him in the hell train scenes : maybe she's really telepathic and had conversations with Shinji to try to understand him better, or maybe this hell train Rei is a construction of Shinji's mind because she represent everything he want to be : a fearless pilot who doesn't hesitate(for the first time she appeared in a hell train, just when Ramiel almost fried him and he wondered why he continued to pilot), and someone close to Gendo(after the Bardiel incident when every bridge between them has been burned)

As always, many interpretations are valid in Evangelion!

Still I think that Rei is actually telepathic, if only because that was implied in NGE and outright stated in the manga, and that Rei having inhuman powers(thanks to having Lilith's soul) is a core element of the character, like the fact she's a clone of Yui, or the fact that Shinji has abandonment issues, Misato a burning thirst of revenge against the Angel for 2I or Asuka having trained since a little girl and wanting to be the best.

AuraTwilight wrote:What's in the basement was capable of responding to Rei's "i'm home" with "Welcome back". Empty shells don't do that.

Who says what respose actually came from the body, and not from that "dark presence" in the back of Rei's own head?

IRC there's some official material somewhere saying "Rei welcomes herself home"... in a descrption of rthat scene, would have to google for it first...

Either way, I kind of like how lillith gets represented by a TELOP, just the message itself without the coloration of a human voice, like it's too eldrith to be coated in sound, or very abstract.

Wait, what's this story of empty shell in a basement and subconscious harassing Rei in a PSP game you're talking about?
There is a PSP game about Rebuild?

ElMariachi wrote:Wait, what's this story of empty shell in a basement and subconscious harassing Rei in a PSP game you're talking about?

A game about the original series, not the New Movie Edition.

NGE2, the PS2/PSP game where the Classified Information files come from: http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/4534/Reconsidering-the-NGE2-PS2-P-Games-Canonicity/