qu4d wrote:Your mood, because you have a low self-esteem and hate yourself.

Bravo, you have won potato medal. Are you feeling better and accomplished after reaching that conclusion?

I was avoiding saing that... But you sound butthurt. Over my choose of name. That's it.

I'll stop now, before it will turn into bitchslap fest and that's not the reason I registered here.

I dont want to, because thats actually very on-topic, because it relates to Evangelion, its message and the percaption of this.

edit:
@Stillborn. That was not hard to guess. And you avoid answering some very simple questions... what do you want from Evangelion? Evangelion does an effin great job of depicting life how it is. Life is hard, you know it and I know it. Life if not fair, even if you try your best. Shit happens all the time and you cant avoid that. Life is pain. But it's worth fighting for. Shinji knew that at the End of Evangelion when he returned to the real world, even though he was broken. He was fubar. And in Evangelion 3.33, the same thing happened. He's a broken down mess, AGAIN. Will he find hope/love in the end? We dont know.

And Shinji tries, maybe even harder than most people in the world would. You're not feeling good? I am sorry for you, I really am. Having depressions is no easy thing and you dont need to be ashamed for that. But do you want to feel better? Want to live a life worth living for? Then go get some help and stop pitying yourself. And start with your own fucking name, because that doesnt help at all. Because you are not the crap you think you are.

Giji Shinka wrote:Would you two take this to PM? Pls?

What the man said.

My problems with this film (and 2.22) is that things just don't make any damn sense. It feels far too often like things are happening because the plot demands it rather than because it is a sensible outcome of the current situation. This problem is amplified when they don't bother to explain the halfassed reasons for these decisions anyway, just dropping them as unimportant details of a world they can't be bothered with fleshing out. Yes there is trouble with limited runtime and this also explains why many carecters are given little development this time around, but then why exacerbate the problem by stuffing in even more charecters who don't fucking matter, completely stupid cooking subplots and leasurely montages that add great atmosphere but absolutely nothing to the plot?

3.33 especially just pisses me off though in it's treatment of Shinji. The things he's being blamed for don't match up with what we saw actually happen in 2.22, not that he could have possibly forseen these events anyway. Compound that with Mari and Misato both urging him into causing this mess in the first place, but then they get to be on the side that thinks he's the antichrist or something. And on top of that you layer the hopelessly mixed messages of them wanting him to 'be a man' and 'save the princess', when the last time he did that is exactly how the mess they all hate him for got started in the first place. How can Asuka be annoyed that he hit her once when she's trying her best to kill him, yet still think he has any reason whatsoever to want to protect her? How can he possibly take Wille's word on anything when they told him jack and shit before strapping him with a bomb collar? How can we expect Shinji to be okay with Kaworu's change of mind when previously he's been told this is the only way to fix the stupid mess he's being blamed for? Isn't this the same guy that earlier told him (regarding the piano) that the way to succeed is to persist in acting over and over until you get it right? Doesn't he realize that at this point they've crossed the edge of no return and because Shinji has lost everything and everyone in his life except Kaworu himself that they have litterally nothing left to lose by proceeding?

...okay, rant over.

I find it interesting that this version of Shinji has managed to keep me on his side despite me straight-up hating EoE Shinji. I do have to give Anno credit for that, though the rest of the movie is a beautiful disaster at best.

To some extent differing judgements are a matter of how we balance different aspects of the film. Objectively, in isolation, I agree with most of what you say, but for me it still adds up to a convincing and worthy film, not a disaster. I would also suggest that the fact that it has kept you on Shinji's side shows how all the nonsenses that you list are portrayed deliberately to provide sympathetic justification for how he feels and what he does. But they go further - for instance, what Asuka says to him is internally inconsistent, as you say, but also characterises her as being conflicted; and after all, she goes and collects up limp-rag Shinji at the end in spite of it all.

@NemZ: It's actually very surprising to hear that you sympathized (or is it empathized?) with Shinji in 3.33, which is a great contrast to EoE, where's he basically the scum of the Earth. I don't agree, overall, with what you said but you do make some valid points in regards to Shinji have nothing lose and deciding to pull the spears anyways. Someone (I forgot who) made a similar comment (or at least something a long that lines) like that when I made a joke about the kid having idiot ball in his cockpit.

I'd say empathized, yes. and it's very different indeed, since in this setup I actually wouldn't mind him going all drag-zombie for the final film because, unlike EoE, I actually feel he's lost everything, has no lingering responsibility to any of these people to try and save them, and actually has good reason to think piloting never does anything good as opposed to NOT piloting being the source of all his issues in the original. On that note Anno has finally gotten it right, though its a shame that everything else is a litter box stuffed with glitter.

I just don't understand the alchemy of how all this comes together into anything but shit for you, pwhodges. Of course the setup forces connection with Shinji but that's obvious and hamfisted... and beyond that, unnecessary; there's plenty of good will built up behind him from the first two films and nothing had really happened to sour it, at least for me. Kaworu was also probably better this time around, though I find it conspicuous that nobody ever mentions the fact he was in this 14 year timeskip in the first place was due to Kaworu spearing him.

Beyond that, It still feels blatantly obvious that a hell of a lot more happened after he exited the stage and that he's actually not at all to blame for some of the crazy shit he's shown. the thing with Lilith and the unaccounted for angels had to have happened at some point, right? And where are evas 7, 10, 11 and 12?

Good grief, this thread turned into a Shinji thread again, with more condescension and "You just aren't smart enough to understand Eva."

It almost makes me think we need a sticky thread about Rebuild Shinji.

If any of you are still interested, we can take the conversation here.

but... how can you say whether or not you liked a shinji-centric movie without discussing Shinji's role in it, and inevitably arguing about it? Litterally everything else in the movie is just nonsense and fluff.

NemZ wrote:but... how can you say whether or not you liked a shinji-centric movie without discussing Shinji's role in it, and inevitably arguing about it? Litterally everything else in the movie is just nonsense and fluff.

This, pretty much. Threads discussing Q are bound to have some measure of Shinji-centricity, simply because there is so much Shinji.

You guys can mention Shinji without going full-blown Shinji Character Analysis. There's a thread for it; use it; don't make every Q thread a duplicate of it. That's all that needs to be said.

It's pretty hard to separate Shinji from one's like or dislike of Q.

I'm back.
Crowd: *OH GOD PLEASE NO*

Anyway, I would just like to add that the more I lurk about Q, the more I appreciate all the little details and hints put into it.
That said, it's still a trainwreck of a movie and all my previous points still stand.

Thumbs up to what NemZ said.

Hello everybody.
*clears throat*

As I have previously detailed here I used to not feel confident enough to really judge this movie as a movie; I felt I didn't have the right to complain about something that I didn't understand, I had a hard time just... seeing it as writing because I was rendered so numb by the in-universe events, and I felt it hurt so bad, I couldn't even see beauty about it - EoE never stopped being beautiful, in a things-falling-appart way, it was flowing, a reaching of a full circle.
But with Q, I was thinking... like this? I certainly don't "like" any of the things that happen, all these likeable, complex characters either die, or get ruined.

...but now, after all this time to reflect on it/try to decipher it, I think I have finally been able to reach a conclusion:
No. I do not dislike it.
In a way, it's obvious - if I was told something I write threw someone into this kind of horror, I would call that a success...

...the realization started, like, with fringe things. I find the setting interesting. I like the surreality of the whole mechano-angels and their use of EVA fins. I *LOVE* the fact that science marches on, and whatever I think of the character's actions, I tend to be in the corner that tends to classify them as understandable darkly-realistic instead of bad writing.

I began finding some beauty, I guess, in the moments of light from before everything completely crashed down - don't all stories eventually end in death? It were those little moments of drowned-out improvement, the wasted good-intentions, the residual feelings of now impossible connection, the... purity that came out.
Rei is gone, but we saw Shinji prive that he really was after *her*.
Misato and Shinji will never be a family again, but the fact that she couldn't shoot him is...like a flesh and blood mother. Not a good or sensible one, but there was a connection that just doesn't completely go away.
"You think that even if you show your son how you live, that won't help him?" No further comments needed.

So, I think it's a sad, sad, bleak, bleak movie, depression pressed onto cels, but its so effective because its true.

Which, as I have noticed by now, seems to be a common perception in the German fandom.
Look at the comments under the newest Kaworu fanarts here
Or... youtube comments in German.
Or the guy at the convention I recently went to who snatched away the last Rei figurine before my eyes XD Damnit, there went my sister with all the money she saved and nearly emptied the stand XD

There seem to be a lot of people who also had this extremely bleak perception of the film... and were in awe of it.


There was one youtube comment where the person replied to me with something like, "Poor Shinji indeed. But the way you're squeezed into the PoV makes the movie a very personal experiemce"

Yes. I think it does.

I disagree with most of the common criticisms about Q, but one I can't understand at all? The charge that the middle section is "too slow". That's some serious ADHD shit right there. Yes, in between the most frantic action scenes imaginable, the film slows down a little bit to take stock of things. People like the complain about the piano -- you know how long the longest piano scene is? Two minutes! And there are only two full scenes featuring it in the first place. Every Nerv scene has an objective, a reason for being. Things aren't drawn out just for the sake of it.

I dunno, when I hear people call this film too slow, I get really worried about what modern media has done to our attention spans.

There's just as many people calling it "too fast", so yeah...

I liked it that the middle part actually took some time to dwell on the characters...

Also, if it hadn't, no one would give a fuck about Kaworu going poof at the end.

---

Also, let's take comfort in the fact that no matter how much Shinji suffers in Q, his oddisey couldn't possuibly match what Tiffany Grant's lone plushie version of him must be going through...

The very quick pacing in the beginning and ending scenes are exactly what make the story possible, because that's where the turning points which decide of the path the story will take are, and said turning points take the form of decisions :
1/ escaping the Wunder with Mark.09 or not?
2/ pulling out the spears or not?

And the fact everything goes so fast is exactly why Shinji is so overwhelmed and take the decisions he took : had not Mark.09 intervened right in the middle of Misato and Ritsuko explaining the situation to Shinji, maybe he would have thought it twice before fleeing with "Rei"(suspiciously good timing from Gendo by the way, that reeks of a mole inside WILLE...), and hadn't Shinji be pushed to go so fast to the spears because WILLE were out to get him and he managed a little minute of respite before Asuka returns to the charge, maybe he would have been more willing to listen to Kaworu's arguments.

The reason of the slowing in pacing in the middle is so we could explore the consequences of Shinji's decision to follow "Rei", namely the differences in how everything that happened those past 14 years is revealed to him(N3I, his role in it, Rei being a clone), some extra informations that WILLE couldn't told him, like Yui's fate, and the people he met(Kaworu).
Had Shinji stayed with WILLE, the info-dump would have been different, maybe a little less mind-shattering for him(if only because I think that he would have received some psychological support from Sakura, and his claims that he didn't had any idea of what was happening and was absolutely not OK with sacrificing the world to take back Rei could have triggered a slight change in Misato, Ritsuko and Sakura's treatment of him, maybe), and would have learned things that he wouldn't in neo-NERV, for example the existence of SEELE, which I recall Kaworu didn't talked to Shinji for some reason.

And this first decision, circumstances of the info-dump and people he met paved the way of his second crucial decision : the two spears... whom the consequences this time are showed immediately, namely 4I and Kaworu's death.

In a way, Q could be compared to a videogame or paper RPG where you take all the decisions leading you to the Bad End!

Ehm, first of all i would like to say "hey!" because i'm a new member here

Well, lets get to the point, shall we? In my (humble) opinion, Q is... what a movie. It's not like other Evangelion movies or mangas i've ever seen, its a shocking one (well, everyone feels shocked, right?)

The movie hits me pretty hard with the sense of isolation and loneliness, while we saw a lot of normal, happy daily life scenes in 2.22. But, its not the Q i was hoping for, i was hoping for Episode 21-like story, less action but more story. Also, am i the only one who feels that the story of Q in the original Preview is far more interesting than the actual Q?

Q has the potential to be a "good" movie, but the rushed pacing and unimportant scenes *ex: Shinji and Kaworu's Piano scene* simply ruins it. Too bad Anno, too bad. I was hoping for two-ish hours of runtime so he can explain several unresolved things

On the good side, Q's story is lot more darker than 1.11 or 2.22, it has the feels of original Evangelion, filled with despair and loneliness. The final action sequences is... crazy and gory, they make a good use of Beethoven's 9th Symphony for the Fourth Impact scene. Ogata's performances as Shinji is amazing as ever, i can feel her despair when voicing the poor boy, while other VA's still pretty good.

In the end, do i dislike Q? Nah, no, its a great movie, but its not the Q i wanted, but still great. Let's hope the wait for FINAL won't be as long as the wait for Q, so we can say the final goodbye to our favorite characters

Well, this is more like a short review instead of reasons why i like or dislike Q hehe

Cheers Anno!!

*Sorry for the bad english, english is not my native languange *[/img]

ElMariachi wrote:And the fact everything goes so fast is exactly why Shinji is so overwhelmed and take the decisions he took : had not Mark.09 intervened right in the middle of Misato and Ritsuko explaining the situation to Shinji, maybe he would have thought it twice before fleeing with "Rei"(suspiciously good timing from Gendo by the way, that reeks of a mole inside WILLE...), and hadn't Shinji be pushed to go so fast to the spears because WILLE were out to get him and he managed a little minute of respite before Asuka returns to the charge, maybe he would have been more willing to listen to Kaworu's arguments.

Except Misato and Ritsuko wasn't really explaining anything other than basic knowledge about Unit 01 and the DSS Choker. They acted all cryptic and vague every time any other subject was brought up. Not to mention they still had plenty of time to explain everything before the Mark 09 arrived. I mean, Shinji was taking a God damn nap after the fight.