[MANGA] [NGE] New Manga Stage Thread

For talking about all other entries in the Evangelion franchise: from the various manga and video games to merchandising and various video/audio releases.

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Postby LeoXiao » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:35 pm

I think that given how much the manga differed from the anime anyway in terms of aesthetic and feeling, the ending that we were given isn't inappropriate. From what we're shown, Instrumentality did happen and was't aborted. People might say that this runs counter to what NGE is about but I don't think this is necessarily true. SEELE-style Instrumentality would have meant the death-like dissolution of both the Self and the Other (the talk about hands from the prior chapters is significant). That's not what happened in the manga.

In the final stage, none of the cast knows each other. None of that "would you like to become one with me", return-to-the-womb stuff is included. The world has been remade, but it's not an escapist remake. It's more of an inevitable evolution, a sign that the world is as always undergoing dynamic changes to the point of even fully shadowing the past (no one knows what the "relics" are) from which the present was born. Shinji still has his troubles, and as seen from the audience's POV of knowing the former cast, he has to face them alone. If he wants to make friends and relationships he has to build them himself. The past characters are just that: in the past. Asuka doesn't know him and probably won't ever see him again. If they do meet again the chances of them getting together are slim. Kensuke may or not become his friend. The important thing is that Shinji retains a life of opportunities that SEELE's scenario would have denied him and everyone else, because when he expressed his wish to Rei during Instrumentality to "hold her hand" he was really expressing the desire to continue living in a world of Selves and Others.

Probably because of the wintry setting, this ending reminds me of Nietzsche's poem "Vereinsamt" (Lone). However, in both this poem and in the final stage, there is the common image of alienation from the past serving as introduction to an uncertain future. This exists in the final scene of EoE as well. I think it fits the spirit of NGE (and especially the manga) nicely.


View Original PostChrad wrote:Man, what a cliche ending for Eva. This is everything I'm hoping 4.0 won't do.
The whole manga was somewhat more cliched than the anime. We have to see the ending in its context.
Last edited by LeoXiao on Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:40 pm

View Original PostLeoXiao wrote:I think that given how much the manga differed from the anime anyway, the ending that we were given isn't inappropriate. From what we're shown, Instrumentality did happen and was't aborted. People might say that this runs counter to what NGE is about but I don't think this is necessarily true. SEELE-style Instrumentality would have meant the death-like dissolution of both the Self and the Other (the talk about hands from the prior chapters is significant). That's not what happened in NME. .


Except that's not what both Shinji and Yui seem to be talking about in the last few chapters... Clear talk of undoing stuff; We are shown the physical world covered in snow...


And now that we're at is, does the whole "MP EVAs as unexplainable relics, stonhenge/easter island style" remind anyone of the following "poem" from "The last year of Ryoji Kaji"?:

SPOILER: Show
You see ruins everywhere
Shell mounds of ancient days the palace fallen into decay
The streets buried under clay
Gorgeous and enormous tumulus in the desert
To call the scar of human life a ruin
This place will be called so
TOKYO-3
What will be left?
Future generations will find a titanium complex huge gun stuck to the ground?
Will they know this is the sign of the giant fighters

Is it a complete misunderstanding?
No
It might be correct
This city belongs to the giants
Humans are subject to them?
The relationship of master and servant is easily converted
The truth fades earlier than the ruins
In hundreds, thousands, and millions of years
An obscure mass is going to break into pieces
Future generations can't do anything but guess

Only if they survive till then
You see ruins everywhere
Maybe all over the world sometimes later

(emphasis mine)
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
- Essay on the character's roles in each others introspec sequences
- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Postby LeoXiao » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:59 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Except that's not what both Shinji and Yui seem to be talking about in the last few chapters... Clear talk of undoing stuff; We are shown the physical world covered in snow...

The fact that snow has returned is just one aspect that shows that the new world isn't a static one; the way SEELE would have had it, everything would simply be LCL and everyone would be existing (if it can be called existence) in a big end-of-history communal bliss. The way I see it, the period between 2I and 3I was one in which history had been "paused". Between 2000 and 2015 humanity was trying to decide whether to hit "play" and continue life, thus accepting all the pain, (perhaps unwanted) change, and uncertainty that comes with it, or to press "stop", thus escaping the excruciating condition of individual being. The bottom line is that Shinji took the former option.

And now that we're at is, does the whole "MP EVAs as unexplainable relics, stonhenge/easter island style" remind anyone of the following "poem" from "The last year of Ryoji Kaji"?:
Good find, I wonder if Sadamoto thought of that as he was planning all this.

When on the topic of Instrumentality, we're really dealing with an event of godly scale. Who knows what happened to remake the world. Maybe Instrumentality lasted an age, so the remains of Eva would rightly seem like prehistoric artifacts.

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:16 pm

The houses that were bathed in Rei's remains looked too intact for that...
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
- Essay on the character's roles in each others introspec sequences
- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Postby LeoXiao » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:33 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:The houses that were bathed in Rei's remains looked too intact for that...

You mean the snow? I'm not sure we can say that was Rei's corpse.

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Postby DarthGendo » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:22 pm

Man, what a fantastic ending!
The libtardation is strong in these forums.

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:42 pm

View Original PostLeoXiao wrote:You mean the snow? I'm not sure we can say that was Rei's corpse.


No, I mean in the previous chapter, when TI is aborted - the infrastructure still looks intact enough.
That wasn't enough time for "relics".
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...
Todo list:
- Essay on the character's roles in each others introspec sequences
- Good faith Analysis of Mari
- Finish ep 8 commentary

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Postby Marzan » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:21 am

A very good and fulfilling ending in my view. Sadamoto showed real care with his characters. I'm somewhat surprised at how much Sadamoto worked at this manga over the last year. 3 years ago I though this manga would never be completed.
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Postby symbv » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:50 am

View Original PostBiQ wrote:And another thing... I just Googled Myoujyou and came up mostly with stuff related to HSOD. -o-; So, they get to fight a zombie outbreak next?? :tongue: (note: I haven't watched HSOD)
But the name of the school in HotD (highschool of the dead) is Fujimi Gakuen, no? Where does the Myoujyou come from?

View Original PostChrad wrote:It's a version of the old time travel reset cliche that's been used in many movies, and is popular in anime and manga. Recent examples that spring to mind are The Butterfly Effect, RahXephon, Mirai Nikki and Steins;Gate.
It's a frustratingly conventional ending for Sadamoto's streamlined, but still pretty crazy version of Eva.
There is a reset but I doubt there is time travel, and this makes Sadamoto's ending quite different from those "cliche" endings you mentioned for Mirai Nikki or Steins;Gate where parallel worlds and time loop dominate.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:40 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:No, I mean in the previous chapter, when TI is aborted - the infrastructure still looks intact enough.
That wasn't enough time for "relics".

We should also remember that the MP-EVAs were turned to stone while in space, and then crashed back on Earth, that's why they are in a so poor state. Maybe that's why the archaeologists think they are relics.
And if were are in a "far future", then what happened to the Geofront? Wouldn't the fact a big pyramid of concrete and metal with an enormous underground complex been also mentioned, moreso since the last time we saw it it was in the open thanks to the JSSDF N² missile? Or even worse : what about Unit-02, aside from its missing right arm, the thing is in perfect state, and inside the Geofront too, someone should have found it and see that it's definitively not something that could have been created during the Feodal era!
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Postby AlphaGamma » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:42 am

View Original PostChrad wrote:Bones really love this type of ending, don't they? I just remembered
SPOILER: Show
Wolf's Rain
.
Man, what a cliche ending for Eva. This is everything I'm hoping 4.0 won't do.

Ye, i agree with you there. It wasn't exactly the kind of ending i expect from something Evangelion-related that isn't a stupid romcom spinoff...

Asuka and Shinji's encounter was especially disappointing (and sad, in a certain way). After all that they've gone through, forgetting about each other and having their relationship "reset", doesn't feel right. 18 years and they are back to the beginning...
I know people probably think that they are going to meet each other again and that it is only the beginning of a new relationship, but to me it felt very much like a "hello and farewell"-kind of meeting. Essentially a weird way to give them some closure.
The fact that Shinji tries to stop her from leaving (if i understood it right) but fails to do so (because Kensuke interrupts him) makes it feel like a missed opportunity that won't present itself again. Shinji blushing, Asuka thanking him (more or less) is probably all that there will be between them in the "new" world.

Now that i think about it, i could even appreciate the ironic and bittersweet nature of their "first" and (arguably) last encounter, if it didn't go so openly against the final message i've come to expect from Evangelion (going forward, no matter what, and facing all the consequences of your action without taking shortcuts or running away). Resetting the entire world, deleting(?) the memories of everyone and, with them, their feelings and experiences, openly betrays that message.

That said, we'll see if Sadamoto is going to add something to volume 14 when it comes out (doubtful) and let's hope Anno won't pull off something similar in Final. Now i really wish final will provide a proper, non-symbolic closure to story and relationships...

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Postby Bhorium » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:53 am

Man, what a lazy cop out! My opinion on the manga has gone from "Meh." to "Really?!"

I mean; as much as people called and are still calling EoTV a cop out, at least it tried to hold on to and convey the series' main message. You can't say the same for the manga. This just feels disconnected in both tone and theme, and it reads like a parody.

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Postby SimplyMason0 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:18 pm

Am I the only one who finds it weird that they aren't brought back. I know that people will say its reincarnation but I think they still ment only to those who got tanged. The pendent and Kensuke being alone to me implies that everyone was mind wiped/brainwashed and those who died of normal circumstances stay dead. Thus Misato, Toji end up getting screwed over. Very odd since EoE was bleak and fleshed out but everyone survived in the end(most likely). It just gives that implication to me, other theories feel like its grasping at straws because the evidence is right there. I mean at least bring them back, cause its suppose to be a happy ending but thinking about it, its a bit of a downer when it shouldn't and wasn't ment to be. Also Kaworu gets screwed over in a sense because Shinji says he will never forget him.

I have a feeling something like this might happen in 4.0 but I think I'll be more happier. Lets be honest, Shinji in 3.0 goes though a lot of shit than anyone in the franchise should get or deserve where I think it might be actually impossible to go on. So its appropriate compared to the manga.

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:59 pm

View Original PostSimplyMason0 wrote:I have a feeling something like this might happen in 4.0 but I think I'll be more happier. Lets be honest, Shinji in 3.0 goes though a lot of shit than anyone in the franchise should get or deserve where I think it might be actually impossible to go on. So its appropriate compared to the manga.

You know, I wonder if Sadamoto didn't make this ending on Anno's secret request to prepare us psychologically to the similar ending he will pull in FINAL! :tongue:
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EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby AlphaGamma » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:00 pm

View Original PostSimplyMason0 wrote:I have a feeling something like this might happen in 4.0 but I think I'll be more happier. Lets be honest, Shinji in 3.0 goes though a lot of shit than anyone in the franchise should get or deserve where I think it might be actually impossible to go on. So its appropriate compared to the manga.

I'm not sure i agree there... I actually think that in Q most of the survivors have gone through considerably more shit than Shinji, during their lives.

Bhorium wrote:I mean; as much as people called and are still calling EoTV a cop out, at least it tried to hold on to and convey the series' main message. You can't say the same for the manga. This just feels disconnected in both tone and theme, and it reads like a parody.

And at least what happened during EoTV helped understand the character and message better. At least there was never any doubt about the fact that everything that took place during the ending was surreal and symbolic. The ending to the manga has gone too far in mixing up "magic" and reality. One good thing about NGE was that most of the weird stuff that happened (without considering angels ofc) remained mostly separated from reality (see the various mindrapes...). It never really felt like the characters and the world weren't real. Can't say the same for the manga, especially now.

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:25 pm

View Original PostAlphaGamma wrote:I'm not sure i agree there... I actually think that in Q most of the survivors have gone through considerably more shit than Shinji, during their lives.

In terms of physical pain, yeah I think that Asuka for example had it far worse, but in term of mental breaking he wins the podium!
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Postby AlphaGamma » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:05 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:In terms of physical pain, yeah I think that Asuka for example had it far worse, but in term of mental breaking he wins the podium!

I'm referring to the fact that it's been
SPOILER: Show
14 years and we can only imagine what the survivors had to go through. Just because Shinji is the one whose suffering is focused upon during the events in Q, it doesn't mean he's suffered (mentally and physically) more than most of the people who've been fighting for years in that world.


ElMariachi wrote:You know, I wonder if Sadamoto didn't make this ending on Anno's secret request to prepare us psychologically to the similar ending he will pull in FINAL!

Hope not... Anno said he hasn't changed during an interview last summer, when asked about the more "positive" direction the rebuild was heading towards. He said he's the same person as 18 years ago. When I saw 3.0, I understood what he meant by that. I hope he will stick to his old view until the end.

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:35 pm

I'm quite terrible at lurking the internet for translations of mangas - I have NGE Manga up to Chapter 94. Would someone mind PMing me where I could find the chapter from last month & especially where to find this final chapter once it's up & translated. Would very much appreciate it!

I've never really given the manga all that much attention. It just sits on my computer now in a folder. BUT I think once I have the last two chapters in my possession I'll probably set aside a free day & just read the damn thing from Page 1 to the end. See how it reads as a complete narrative without trying to compare it too much to Anno's work. Then I'll formulate a final opinion.

Speaking of Anno's work... I do hope we don't get a Rewind/Redo in 4.0, otherwise they could very well call the film EVANGELION 4:0: YOU CAN REDO. It's gonna be a pretty long couple of years for this Eva fan waiting to find out.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:12 pm

View Original PostAlphaGamma wrote:That said, we'll see if Sadamoto is going to add something to volume 14 when it comes out (doubtful)


FWIW, when the final volume of the Excel Saga manga came out in tankoubon format, Rikdo Koshi added a few things to it. So it's possible (but who knows how likely) things would be added to volume 14 of the Eva manga.

Edit: Typo.
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Postby SEELE-01 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:23 pm

Image

Finally!!
Now I can die in peace... I must say I have really enjoyed the manga so far and like I read a few posts ago I like the fact that it doesn't end in a overcomplicated (almost pretentious) way like EoE, and not in a way that would seem oversimplified...

It seems just right...
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