The Spears

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue May 21, 2013 7:17 am

View Original PostCharsi wrote:Honestly wasn't the whole Cassius concept introduced 3.33? Did we even know it was the spear of Cassius in 2.22 or was it just a spear at that point in time?

I could fanwank an explanation but it seems pointless; any contrast between spears and Adams falls over when Eva-13 is supposed to be one of the "surviving Adams" (according to Mari) yet the spears remain in Longinus shape when wielded by the Eva.

We see the lance of Cassius three time in 2.22 :
- during the flashback of 2I, when we see the 4 spears floating with the background all white, we see just the handle of the one at the bottom of the image, and it had a smooth handle, unlike the Longinus ones which have a "screwy" handle.
- when Gendo and Fuyutsuki come to visit Tabgha Base, we see the lance completely wrapped, we can guess from the silhouette that it's not a classical Longinus.
- finally when Mark0.06 throws it to spear the awakened EVA-01 and stopped 3I. Eventually you can add the shot of it skewering EVA-01 on the ground in the trailer for 3.0.

We already know that there was at least on spear different from the other, but we learn its proper name("Lance of Cassius") until 3.0 when Kaworu was deep in though in Lilith's Chamber and muttered the name of the two type of lances.
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Postby Charsi » Sun May 26, 2013 9:44 am

Why is it, in preview of 3.33, you can see Eva-01 immobilized on the GeoFront - the spear that pins it down is in the shape of Longinus??

Even in the final pre-credits shot of the movie when Mark.06 descends, the end of the spear shaft appears to be twisted.

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Postby Mbryo » Sun May 26, 2013 10:37 am

Can someone post a pic of that weird 'Heat Spear' Asuka was weilding? From what I saw in the BRRip it apparently was jeweled like the Cassius lance, but had that bident shape................
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sun May 26, 2013 12:57 pm

View Original PostMbryo wrote:Can someone post a pic of that weird 'Heat Spear' Asuka was weilding? From what I saw in the BRRip it apparently was jeweled like the Cassius lance, but had that bident shape................


No jewels; it just looks like an inventive piece of machinery in these pics:

SPOILER: Show
Image]Image


Of course, it could be a Lance replica like Eva-05's Lance of Longinus replica (the jousting lance it uses; see the OP). But I don't think they would use a valuable AT Field-piercing piece of equipment like that just to melt open a hatch. Note that Asuka doesn't stab the heat lance itself to stab into Eva-01; she just uses it to melt the hatch protecting it. Then she stabs it with this weird, short glowy blade that we can't see very well:

SPOILER: Show
]Image


The weird short glowy blade hits Eva-01 and that's what causes the Wunder to fly.
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Postby wiser3754 » Mon May 27, 2013 3:01 am

Has anyone considered that when EVA 13 impaled itself with the two lances, Shinji may have sustained internal injuries? Remember when he caught the eighth angel, his palms were pierced and needed surgery.

When Asuka yells at him at the end of 3.0 she asks why he can't stand up on his own, he's clearly sweating and unable to stand due to the pain, or, of course he's stricken with grief, just saying if anyone mentioned this.
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Postby Logoguy » Mon May 27, 2013 3:19 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Has anyone considered that when EVA 13 impaled itself with the two lances, Shinji may have sustained internal injuries? Remember when he caught the eighth angel, his palms were pierced and needed surgery.

When Asuka yells at him at the end of 3.0 she asks why he can't stand up on his own, he's clearly sweating and unable to stand due to the pain, or, of course he's stricken with grief, just saying if anyone mentioned this.



Yup, I noticed that too ;)
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon May 27, 2013 3:22 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Has anyone considered that when EVA 13 impaled itself with the two lances, Shinji may have sustained internal injuries? Remember when he caught the eighth angel, his palms were pierced and needed surgery.

When Asuka yells at him at the end of 3.0 she asks why he can't stand up on his own, he's clearly sweating and unable to stand due to the pain, or, of course he's stricken with grief, just saying if anyone mentioned this.

I don't know if his palms where also pierced when Sahaquiel impaled the EVA's hands, for me it looked like phantom pain that made his hands extremely sensitive, hence the bandages. Was it said in the script or the CRC that his palms were actually pierced?

As for him not able to stand at the end, I think its more psychological than physical : he's on a similar state of catatonic depression than during EoE. If it was due to the pain, we would have see him at least cringing. And I don't see any sweat on him.

As for the two spears, I don't think that they did something as grave as internal injuries : he wasn't that much synchronized with the EVA, and seeing that he's now in the middle of a "desert" with Asuka and ReiQ and dozen of kilometers of any trace of civilisation, any internal injuries would means certain death for him, and we can lost our main protagonist that early in the movie right?
But it sure as hell was extremely painful to Shinji, probably on par with the arms damaged after Sahaquiel's fight and slightly below the time Ramiel almost cooked him alive. At worst, I see them letting letting some scars on his chest, as a permanent reminder of what his recklessness caused to Kaworu so that he never forget his lesson.

On a side note it's odd that Shinji felt the pain of the spears impaling EVA-13 since he lost any control of it, was he still synchronized with it even after the controls were cut? Also, it's really strange that while Shinji suffer, Kaworu don't seem to feel anything, he can't be that stoic can't he?
Last edited by ElMariachi on Mon May 27, 2013 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Monk Ed » Mon May 27, 2013 3:25 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Remember when he caught the eighth angel, his palms were pierced and needed surgery.

Eh? I don't remember that. So I just checked and his palms seemed, although injured in some ambiguous way (maybe burned a little?), not pierced, and next we see of him they're bandaged but that gives no indication that he needed surgery, in fact he's even able to make a fist without obvious pain, and the bandages are gone in the very next scene.
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Postby wiser3754 » Mon May 27, 2013 4:13 am

Should have mentioned EVA 01 palms were pierced and Shinji was feeling the brunt of it, the only difference here is that it's the lances and not an angel, remember EoE, though the eye, your eye will burst and you will bleed (granted that's EoE, not Rebuild).

I just thought that if he is suffering internal bleeding or injuries, he's keeping silent because he's lost the will to will to live and Asuka, yelling, kicking and making stand and walk, will make the problem worse. As for the sweating, you can see a sweat bead near his ear and his hair is more matted, but it's likely that it's LCL.

If WILLE wants him to suffer punishment, there it is. But most likely, he's fine, just grieving and unwilling to live.

Someone has noticed all the above, so, I'll shut up now.
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon May 27, 2013 4:29 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Should have mentioned EVA 01 palms were pierced and Shinji was feeling the brunt of it, the only difference here is that it's the lances and not an angel, remember EoE, though the eye, your eye will burst and you will bleed (granted that's EoE, not Rebuild).

That was a very special case, as Asuka reached the insane synch-ratio of 300%, which let her do completely insane things with ehr EVA and mop the floor with the harpies, but at the cost of not only feeling, but actually sustaining the same damages than the EVA, that's why her eye burst out when Unit-02 was impaled in the head.

And we're not even sure that a big synch-rate(or "plug depth" as it's called in NTE) means sustaining the same damage as the EVA is true in Rebuild : in 2.0 Mari reached the "negative value" of her plug depth(meaning an extremely high synchronization) with the Beast Mode, but when Zeruel cut 02' arm and half of its head, Mari felt the pain but was still in one piece, unless the Beast Mode had a "safety" that prevent the pilot to sustain the same damages as the EVA, which is possible since the EVA completely morph during that phase, and the effect of EVA-02' kitty mode on Asuka would have been really gruesome.


View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:I just thought that if he is suffering internal bleeding or injuries, he's keeping silent because he's lost the will to will to live and Asuka, yelling, kicking and making stand and walk, will make the problem worse. As for the sweating, you can see a sweat bead near his ear and his hair is more matted, but it's likely that it's LCL.

If WILLE wants him to suffer punishment, there it is. But most likely, he's fine, just grieving and unwilling to live.

As I said, due to were he's stranded now, internal injuries means certain death, as for WILLE I doubt they would be that cruel : remember that they're supposed to be the good guys, even if they were dicks to Shinji, willingly letting him suffer from internal injuries would put them on an even lower level than neo-NERV(at least Gendo mindfucks his son only if it's necessary for his plans)
And for the matted hair, it's more likely LCL as you said, or maybe an artistic effect with the light to showcase how he lost the will to live, like the "dull eyes effect".
Last edited by ElMariachi on Mon May 27, 2013 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon May 27, 2013 5:37 am

In the last shot we see ReiQ, Asuka and Shinji are already a fair distance away from where Shinji's entry plug landed. I doubt Shinji could walk that far with internal injuries without at least dribbling some blood.

Dragging this back on topic, any ideas what happened to the Cassius Spear? I think ReiQ could have climbed down through the crevice Mari and Asuka use and done a switcheroo for Gendo, although the Spear may also have changed its form due to exposure to the 12th Angel, the Mark.06, Lilith, or due to aging.
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Postby one-eyed » Mon May 27, 2013 8:39 am

More I think, more I consider this entire story an absurd! If Wille known the passage to Lilith and had supplies prepared, why not just exploded everything in those years? Or filled with traps and explosives? Wille cannot have committed such negligence! Everything from detecting the activation of Unit 13 (which should be impossible since Mark 09 was undetectable, then Eva 13 also should be), until the appearance of Asuka and Mari and the substitution/transformation of Spears seemed staged. For me, Gendo has a double agent infiltrated Wille that monitors and, when is appropriate to Gendo, give information to them. I'm heavy speculating, but I think those who exchanged the spears were Wille and they used the two Spears of Longinius to ensure that Eva 06 and Lilith stay neutralized with Intel of Gendo. This would explain the similarity of Heat Spear with Spear of Cassius.
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Mon May 27, 2013 9:14 am

View Original Postone-eyed wrote:If Wille known the passage to Lilith and had supplies prepared, why not just exploded everything in those years?

Can we please drop this ridiculous idea that somehow equipment takes YEARS to set up? It doesn't.

It's just two arm containers, two rechargers and two Evas each with one weapon system.

The containers and chargers are demonstrated to be durable enough to just be dropped and manipulated by the Evas.

That setup in the cavern takes only minutes maximum.

View Original Postone-eyed wrote:Or filled with traps and explosives? Wille cannot have committed such negligence!

While the barrier was shown only at the bottom of the main shaft it was still intertwined with the FoIs and could have easily extended sideways through them to envelop the whole chamber and cover the cavern Mari and Asuka use. Note that while the barrier is pushed down and broken apart by Eva-13, the blocks then simply explode into nothingness. Think of it like a bubble popping. There's the initial breach point but the rest collapses anyway.

Eva-13 activation detected.
Wunder sets course for neo-Nerv and airdrops Evas + equipment. (It was probably loitering just out of Nerv's detection range anyway at this point, or Gendo didn't care that they were close because all according to keikaku)
Eva-13 destroys the barrier.
Mari and Asuka sneak in and set up.
Eva-13 reaches Lilith.
Asuka Strikes.
Mari is late with backup.

There is nothing even remotely complicated about this. It is very simple, straigh-forward and requires no conspiring or incompetence from any party.
View Original Postone-eyed wrote:Everything from detecting the activation of Unit 13 (which should be impossible since Mark 09 was undetectable, then Eva 13 also should be)

They had the DSS Choker inside Eva-13 that monitor the pilot's synchronization.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon May 27, 2013 9:25 am

View Original Postone-eyed wrote:Everything from detecting the activation of Unit 13 (which should be impossible since Mark 09 was undetectable, then Eva 13 also should be).


Would like to point out that they knew about the Mark.09; they even refer to it as a "champion" when it first appears. They clearly knew it existed. As for them not detecting its approach, it had a jetpack so I'm sure it closed in fairly quickly.

If Wille knew about the Cassius and Longinus Spears and made the Heat Spear after the Cassius Spear, why didn't they try to use them to reverse 3I themselves? I think either:

a)The Spears don't reverse Impacts (Kaworu made it up)

b)They didn't know where the Spears were. The Heat Spear just happens to resemble the Cassius Spear.

c)They didn't know what the Spears did and didn't want to try using them for fear of messing things up more (which is what happened to Shinji).
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Postby Kendrix » Mon May 27, 2013 9:53 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Has anyone considered that when EVA 13 impaled itself with the two lances, Shinji may have sustained internal injuries? Remember when he caught the eighth angel, his palms were pierced and needed surgery.

When Asuka yells at him at the end of 3.0 she asks why he can't stand up on his own, he's clearly sweating and unable to stand due to the pain, or, of course he's stricken with grief, just saying if anyone mentioned this.


Since we do get some blood from the mouth, there was probably some degree of injury sustained, but his synch ratio with EVA 13 is presumably much lower than with EVA 01, since
a) It's his first time in there and
b) Yui isn't in it.
You know, just like when his series counterpart briefly entered the EVAs 00 and 02.

Contrast/Compare to when Zeruel skewered EVA 01 - THAT was certainly critical and may have been fatal if he hadn't tanged a few minutes afterwards.

I mean, I doubt Kaworu would do the stabbing thing if there was a risk of leaving Shinji with the impractical combination of "critically injured" and "stranded in a wasteland".
I think we can trust him not to bleed to death before Sakura gets a chance to patch him up.


Generally, Rebuild has been more liberal with the physical injuries; Ramiel yields at least a red spot in 1.11, both of Mari's battles have her bleeding in the end, and she was wearing bandages on her arm for the entirity of 2.0 (we see them discarded along with her uniform as she climbs into her pink suit)

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Also, it's really strange that while Shinji suffer, Kaworu don't seem to feel anything, he can't be that stoic can't he?


He may not be controlling EVA 13 in the same way that Shinji is (he could still move it enough to do the spears thing, after all), perhaps he's doing his usual episode24-esque "EVA-remote-control", but from within the plug.

---

OBVIOUSY, the Cassius spear will somehow make a grand entrance in final.
Very tempting chekov's gun here.

As for Asuka's "glowy blade", that's the igniter/cable she was supposed to connect.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Mon May 27, 2013 9:58 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:a)The Spears don't reverse Impacts (Kaworu made it up)

Even if they don't reverse Impacts, they can still halt them as we see in the end of 2.0. They would come in very handy at times likes 4I.

b)They didn't know where the Spears were. The Heat Spear just happens to resemble the Cassius Spear.

If Wille doesn't have the Cassius Spear, it was probably with Gendo since the Cassius spear was last seen impaling Unit 01. I would assume that Cassius was removed sometime after Wille defected since Neo-Nerv had to go through the trouble of sending Unit 01 into space with the Tesseract.

c)They didn't know what the Spears did and didn't want to try using them for fear of messing things up more (which is what happened to Shinji).

I don't think Wille ever had the Cassius Spear to begin with since Kaworu said he last saw it in Dogma 14 years ago and no one ever intruded since then. Not to mention he really has no reason to lie, and if he was lying he wouldn't act so shocked and surprised when things went the way it did.
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Postby Reichu » Mon May 27, 2013 10:09 am

It's amazing how much this bit of dialogue is ignored.

{Kaworu} Both Spears have morphed into the same shape.

Unless this is total throwaway -- doubtful -- it means that the Spear of Cassius turned into a Spear of Longinus. No convoluted switcheroos using secret passages or anything like that -- just an unexplained metamorphosis.
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Postby Mbryo » Mon May 27, 2013 10:09 am

The heat spear seems to cleverly resemble to Cassius Spear, but it definately does not have the signature jewel, and it looks more mechanical/artificial. Probably just a copy, though I don't know how Wille managed to accomplish that, since they clearly are behind Neo-Nerv in terms of Eva-technology (if they can't re-grow a limb for an eva, where the hell did they get the technology to copy the spears?)
One of the Longinus Spear in the Dogma probably was the Cassius Spear. Perhaps a Cassius Spear changes form into a Longinus Spear after a prolonged contact with an Angellic being (that would correspond well with its religious reference) and it just changed shape, which is also how Kaworu guessed there was a living Angel inside Mark.06.
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Mon May 27, 2013 10:15 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:It's amazing how much this bit of dialogue is ignored.

{Kaworu} Both Spears have morphed into the same shape.

Unless this is total throwaway -- doubtful -- it means that the Spear of Cassius turned into a Spear of Longinus. No convoluted switcheroos using secret passages or anything like that -- just an unexplained metamorphosis.

That completely went passed my mind. I just realized that now, I need to pay more attention when I'm reading the subtitles.
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Postby Charsi » Mon May 27, 2013 10:41 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Unless this is total throwaway -- doubtful -- it means that the Spear of Cassius turned into a Spear of Longinus. No convoluted switcheroos using secret passages or anything like that -- just an unexplained metamorphosis.


If you look at 2.22 in the bit where Mark.06 descends, look at the top of the spear (pointing skywards). It's twisted like Longinus.

In the preview of 3.33 after the credits, it already IS in Longinus shape. But I guess that's not canon now.


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