Lilith in 3.0 & Beyond

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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Mt Olympus
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Postby Mt Olympus » Sat May 11, 2013 8:42 am

People turning into Evas you say? This is interesting. I don't know what I could add to that but I will be thinking about it a lot.

If some of the Evas were going to Lilith and some were going away could it be possible that some are Adams and some Lilins?

Also, did they all die when Lilith was pierced with the spear?

Lilith's corpse reminds me of Tetsuo from Akira when he dropped all his organs on the ground.

I apologize for my ignorance but I'm not familiar with some acronyms y'all use so please excuse the bush beating.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Sat May 11, 2013 11:01 am

No, the Failures of Infinity (the Evas made from people) don't seem to die when Lilith does. Some speculate that they might become the green Mark.06s seen in the 4.0 preview.

Bringing the discussion back to Lilith, what happened to all the LCL? Being dead, Lilith probably can't produce anymore LCL, but the LCL in her chamber has all disappeared. Considering that Lilith is heavily injured, shouldn't a large amount of LCL have been released from those wounds? Did the LCL just dry up or is it being stored elsewhere?
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Postby Reichu » Sat May 11, 2013 11:01 am

Central Dogma is underground inside the Black Moon. We know this because of Eva-13's upward descent, which breaks through the surface, goes up the entire length of the pole (destroying it), and breaks through the top of the pyramid.
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Postby one-eyed » Sat May 11, 2013 11:28 am

All this confusion with Lilith makes me think of the alleged contract/covenant that SEELE and Gendo have with her. Apparently she is card off the deck or at least easily manipulated, used and discarded. However, as much SEELE as Gendo aims to fulfill this contract (Deicide). Fulfilling a deal with a pawn? What is the logic of it all? Is there any information about it on some old topic?

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Postby Jinroh » Sat May 11, 2013 1:32 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Central Dogma is underground inside the Black Moon.

But we're talking about the command room. All the nerv infrastructure seems to be located in the inverted pyramid.

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Postby wiser3754 » Mon May 13, 2013 2:56 am

View Original PostMt Olympus wrote:People turning into Evas you say? This is interesting. I don't know what I could add to that but I will be thinking about it a lot.

If some of the Evas were going to Lilith and some were going away could it be possible that some are Adams and some Lilins?

Also, did they all die when Lilith was pierced with the spear?

Lilith's corpse reminds me of Tetsuo from Akira when he dropped all his organs on the ground.

I apologize for my ignorance but I'm not familiar with some acronyms y'all use so please excuse the bush beating.


It's a nice theory and I'll tell you why. Mark.06/Angel 12 is found impaled with Lilith's corpse when Eva 13 arrives in Central Dogma. My theory is that Mark.06/Angel 12 attempted to merge with Lilith in an attempt to "Rebuild the world", an idea also shared by Kaworou, the 1st Angel. In one scene in particular, Gendo is standing in front of Lilith's decapitated head with, what looks like, red human like bodies reaching for it (human souls reaching for humanity maybe).

My theory for the Angels role in the Rebuild series is this, bear with me:

Mark.06/Angel 12, tried (and failed) to reform humanity. When it merged with Lilith it believed that by doing so would open the doors of guf and allow humans souls caught in the red sea to reform in Lilith's image. However, Mark.06, using the two Longinus spears (meant solely for the Adams vessels) to amplify it's power over the entire surface of the planet caused humanity to form in it's image instead of Lilith's image (hence green Mark.06 evas in the Fianl preview and Failure of Infinity scatted all over the surface).

Relizing it's mistake (as Kaworou also does) it attempts to stop this event happening by cutting off Lilith's head and thrusting both spears into itself, becoming inert. This theory is also supported by Kaworou's actions when he merges with angel 12 during Eva 13's god ascension and triggering of fourth impact, thrusts both spears through the core of Eva 13 and detonating the DSS choker (killing Kaworu and itself) so that all angels are (now) destroyed and no other EVA can replicate the same event again. Also, I believe fourth impact was initiated to wipe the surface clean of the Failures of Infinity (human souls trapped in Mark.06 crystal like stasis) freeing the human souls back to the red sea.

So what I believe is (in terms of the rebuild vs NGE) the angels were never going to start third impact, they were trying to stop humanity from doing it and if the event should rise(which it does) try and undo third impact (the idea suggested by Kaworu). They were trying to save us and from what Mari says about killing the last angel "I'm afraid that if it is destroyed, all evil will be unleashed", why would she that when Angels were supposedly evil to begin with, or is SEELE and NERV the real evil?

I may have left critical points out but as of time of writing, I have other things to do, just wanted to get this off my chest and onto a forum, so please reply with anything else that should be (or shouldn't) be added.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon May 13, 2013 5:05 am

That's a very good argument, except that the FoIs (red Evas made from people) are heavily resemble Eva-01, not the Mark.06...unless the Mark.06 has a serious identity crisis, that wouldn't make sense. My theory is that Shinji and Eva-01 started the process, then when Mark.06/Lilith restarted it, it still used Eva-01 as a "template" for the godlike beings that were being produced.

Possibly the reason Lilith's emergence was shut down was because her awakening started the formation of FoIs instead of the Sea of LCL, SEELE's old goal from NGE?
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Postby one-eyed » Mon May 13, 2013 6:25 am

That's a very good argument, except that the FoIs (red Evas made from people) are heavily resemble Eva-01, not the Mark.06...unless the Mark.06 has a serious identity crisis, that wouldn't make sense. My theory is that Shinji and Eva-01 started the process, then when Mark.06/Lilith restarted it, it still used Eva-01 as a "template" for the godlike beings that were being produced.

One of the things that caught my attention was that. We know that the offspring of Adam is diverse, but do not know if the offspring of Lilith has the same feature. And if all the offspring of Lilith are identical to Unit 01? In the original, Unit 01 was the only real daughter of Lilith. In Rebuilding, this has to be confirmed, but if Lilith began to reproduce so it makes sense that her creations may be similar to Unit 01. The amount of skulls (and only skulls) in the chamber was millions, perhaps tens of million or more, a much larger population likely that from Tokyo III after 2I! And the FoIs of the surface seemed out of phase as Lilith in EoE and not victims of explosive evolution that should be stacked in residential buildings.
Also, Shinji, Rei and Kaworu found several waves of FoIs during the journey and some of them were crushed as if they had materialized at the wrong time

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Mon May 13, 2013 6:57 am

View Original Postone-eyed wrote:One of the things that caught my attention was that. We know that the offspring of Adam is diverse, but do not know if the offspring of Lilith has the same feature. And if all the offspring of Lilith are identical to Unit 01? In the original, Unit 01 was the only real daughter of Lilith. In Rebuilding, this has to be confirmed, but if Lilith began to reproduce so it makes sense that her creations may be similar to Unit 01. The amount of skulls (and only skulls) in the chamber was millions, perhaps tens of million or more, a much larger population likely that from Tokyo III after 2I! And the FoIs of the surface seemed out of phase as Lilith in EoE and not victims of explosive evolution that should be stacked in residential buildings.
Also, Shinji, Rei and Kaworu found several waves of FoIs during the journey and some of them were crushed as if they had materialized at the wrong time

If we're still going by NGE logic here since they don't explain much in NME, then Unit 01 isn't an offspring of Lilith and Unit 01 was just designed in Lilith's image.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon May 13, 2013 7:05 am

Additionally, even if Lilith was envisaging its "child", I doubt it would envisage her fully decked out with armor, fully detailed except for the head. After all, in this continuity Lilith has not been proven to have ever seen Eva-01 before, and Eva-01 may not necessarily be cloned from Lilith. (I'm pretty sure there was a reason to change Eva-01's skin colour though. What could it be?)
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Postby one-eyed » Mon May 13, 2013 8:12 am

If we're still going by NGE logic here since they don't explain much in NME, then Unit 01 isn't an offspring of Lilith and Unit 01 was just designed in Lilith's image.


There is no evidence confirming or denying the connection between Lilith and Unit 01, we'll have to wait and see, but I thought Lilith was trying to achieve something (Unit 01?) and not simply trying to escape from prison. Maybe she wanted to reproduce with or assimilate or create a copy of Eva 01 for itself? It was the same that the angels do, but this time, was one of the first ones actively trying to reach someone. The severed head was smiling... She must have almost succeeded!

Additionally, even if Lilith was envisaging its "child", I doubt it would envisage her fully decked out with armor, fully detailed except for the head. After all, in this continuity Lilith has not been proven to have ever seen Eva-01 before, and Eva-01 may not necessarily be cloned from Lilith. (I'm pretty sure there was a reason to change Eva-01's skin colour though. What could it be?)


I think the armor was creative freedom. Would not be possible relate the Unit 01 and the FoIs without this visual information, unless we had several scenes with Eva 01 totally naked. The armor is the part that I found most weak in this transformation/creation of FoIs. I'm waiting for something most enlightening of the green MP Evas Army (If Anno will explain something about N3I in 4.0!).

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Postby ElMariachi » Mon May 13, 2013 8:52 am

My personal take is that if EVA-01 is made from Lilith and Rei contains Lilith's soul like in NGE, then when Unit-01 ascended to godhood, it basically completed Lilith : she had a body, her soul and all of that awakened and ready to use the true extend of her power.
If that was the case, the Lilith's body could have reacted thanks to some body-soul connection, changing her image to the one her soul identify with(Rei), and when creating "offsprings", imagined them to the image of the active part of her body(Unit-01), hence the 01 looking FoI.
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Postby Charsi » Mon May 13, 2013 8:54 am

Question:

There's a shot of Lilith's head resting in the command center in 3.33. We've also seen EVA-01 bust through the wall of the CC.

From the two incidents can we get a sense of Lilith's head in comparison to an Eva? Are they of a comparable size?

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Postby Giji Shinka » Mon May 13, 2013 9:00 am

View Original PostCharsi wrote:Question:

There's a shot of Lilith's head resting in the command center in 3.33. We've also seen EVA-01 bust through the wall of the CC.

From the two incidents can we get a sense of Lilith's head in comparison to an Eva? Are they of a comparable size?
Lilith's head alone is a size of an Eva. (Also: when Lilith was crucified in 1.11, notice how her body was still larger than any Eva in NME,(So the awakening during time-skip didn't make her any bigger) although, she was Eva sized in NGE.)
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Postby Reichu » Mon May 13, 2013 9:52 am

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:So the awakening during time-skip didn't make her any bigger

Oh, this is quite false. While you're correct that Lilith was originally bigger than an Eva (if Mark.09's scale to the cross is anything to go by), Lilith in her post-3I state would not begin to fit on the cross. Note how Eva-13 is dwarfed by Mark.06, who in turn is dwarfed by Lilith. Lilith originally might have been smaller than Mark.06 ended up.
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Postby Giji Shinka » Mon May 13, 2013 9:55 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Oh, this is quite false. While you're correct that Lilith was originally bigger than an Eva (if Mark.09's scale to the cross is anything to go by), Lilith in her post-3I state would not begin to fit on the cross. Note how Eva-13 is dwarfed by Mark.06, who in turn is dwarfed by Lilith. Lilith originally might have been smaller than Mark.06 ended up.

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Postby Xiel » Mon May 13, 2013 1:06 pm

Lilith shapeshifts so changing size isn't a problem, is it? That's why I wasn't shocked by the change.
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Postby wiser3754 » Tue May 14, 2013 1:42 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:That's a very good argument, except that the FoIs (red Evas made from people) are heavily resemble Eva-01, not the Mark.06...unless the Mark.06 has a serious identity crisis, that wouldn't make sense. My theory is that Shinji and Eva-01 started the process, then when Mark.06/Lilith restarted it, it still used Eva-01 as a "template" for the godlike beings that were being produced.

Possibly the reason Lilith's emergence was shut down was because her awakening started the formation of FoIs instead of the Sea of LCL, SEELE's old goal from NGE?


Sorry, should have mentioned that the FOI's look like (to me) the Mark.06 without it's visor (depicted in the 3.0 preview). The preview (for 3.0) supposedly adds a few more tid bits to the story, that's why I mentioned it.

But yeah, (most likely) what you said, Eva 01/Shinji was used first for instrumentality (why they did it before destroying the angels, I don't know, possibly a test run) then used Mark.06 to create the green MP evas(seen in unison what looks like a massive A.T field near the fourth impact site). Another reason why WILLE in 3.0 blame Shinji for the state of the world and don't want him piloting another EVA.
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Postby Jinroh » Tue May 14, 2013 4:16 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:Sorry, should have mentioned that the FOI's look like (to me) the Mark.06 without it's visor

They are carbon copy of unit 01, we talked about that somewhere in the forum.

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Postby Giji Shinka » Tue May 14, 2013 4:48 am

Yeah, FOI's shoulder pylons look similar to Eva-01.
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