Kaworu/Shinji Relationship

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Rei IV » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:57 am

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:Ahem, what is the point in doing this? I do agree that Kaworu has been evidently manipulating Shinji to some degree but honestly I don't get this Messiah complex, in this film dying looked like a move of last resort for Kaworu rather than an ultimate goal.

Kaworu Nagisa is the Bishonen Space Jesus. He need not any reasons or any justification to die for Shini (and his sins). Remember, he TOOK the DSS choker and wore it for a reason.

:tongue:

On second thought... that's still tons of people dead, so probably not nearly enough weight off Shinji's shoulders. We'll need a hell of a messianic handwave to get Shinji out of this pickle!

Angelboy could've thrown the choker away once he took it off and given Shinji a "Get out of jail" card.

^_^

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:03 pm

View Original PostRei IV wrote:Kaworu Nagisa is the Bishonen Space Jesus. He need not any reasons or any justification to die for Shini (and his sins). Remember, he TOOK the DSS choker and wore it for a reason.

And that reason was convincing Shinji to pilot Eva 13 by removing some of his burden and responsibilities, there's a reason and a logic behind that move. But saying that Kaworu wanted to die for Shinji since the beginning seems hard to explain to me.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:13 pm

01:02:10 {Kaworu} I will shoulder the burden of the Lilin's curse, and the risk of Eva's Awakening, for you.
01:02:24 {Kaworu} You don't have to worry.
01:02:26 {Kaworu} Because I was originally something created by the very Lilin who fear me.
01:02:29 {Kaworu} I had intended to do this at some point.

I'm not sure how else to explain this other than that "Kaworu always planned to destroy his false and loathed existence some time or other". He just happens to tie it in with his "make Shinji happy no matter what"/Messiah Complex intentions.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:22 pm

Taking a risk doesn't mean that his masterplan involved necessarily his own death, it seems to go more around the lines of "life and death are of equal value to me", he intended to take this risk because he can take it, not because he wants to die at all costs.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:28 pm

H.Shinchan: I'm not sure how that ties into "I had always planned to do this". Planned to do what? "I had always planned to risk my life" seems a little off, not to mention "limp", versus an implied "I had always planned to have myself offed". It also makes sense that, if he's talking about his death, he talks around it instead of mentioning it directly (and, of course, it goes completely over Shinji's head).
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:41 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:H.Shinchan: I'm not sure how that ties into "I had always planned to do this". Planned to do what? "I had always planned to risk my life" seems a little off, not to mention "limp", versus an implied "I had always planned to have myself offed".

"I had always planned to take your place" could be an option, without directly implying that he had a suicidal wish since the very beginning, like I said before his death looked like a last resort measure rather than his final objective.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:00 pm

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:58 pm

That's exactly where the "messiah complex" comes from.

If he had intended to die, it wouldn't exyctly be a sacrifice, would it?
Of course it was a last resort. That's why it's heroic.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:27 pm

I noticed that the translation used by the UTW team as a very different meaning about the reason Kaworu gave Shinji to take the DSS Choker :
- No need to worry.
- Lilin made this because it was afraid of me to begin with.
- I was going to take it from you eventually.


These sentences have to be placed in parallel with another scene, when Ritsuko explained what the DSS Choker was to Shinji :
- Still, we cannot overlook the fact that the unit suddenly awakened for twelve seconds earlier.
- That's why we installed a DSS Choker on you

Not "the" DSS Choker, but "a" DSS Choker, meaning there are others that have been created in the past.

That two moments potentially tell us a lot about the plot and what happened to Kaworu during the time skip : if the DSS Choker was created specifically for Kaworu, that means that whoever designed that device in the first place feared Kaworu's powers and what he could do with them.
The first people that came in mind is SEELE, but if they created this to keep Kaworu on a leash, then why did he not sported one in 3.0?
So for me the other culprit is simple : NERV, which is nowadays WILLE.

That would imply that at some point, they discovered Kaworu's true nature as an Angel and wanted a device to make sure he don't start an Impact when no one is looking. That must have happened very soon before NERV's s splitting(maybe during the Lilith's awakening incident), because WILLE don't seems to know that Kaworu can take it off when he want, if that was the case they would have created an upgraded version that they would have placed later on Shinji and that Kaworu wouldn't have been able to take off.(or at least not that easily)

That would also explain why Kaworu isn't with WILLE, because they didn't trust him. Think about it : once Lilith was dead and Misato and Cie split from NERV to found WILLE, what would have prevented Kaworu to ditch Gendo and SEELE and work with the guys that want to destroy the ones who manipulated Shinji since his birth and are in a way responsible for making his life hell? He would be a precious source of information, both about SEELE's plans and everything that concern Impact Mechanisms and all this crazy shit. And that's without taking into account the fact he's an exceptional pilot able to control any EVA at will!
And on a personal level for him, he could be right with the people that Shinji needs to reconnect with(any relationship with the people at neo-NERV are utterly unhealthy). Hell, maybe he would have even been able to convince Shinji to stay with WILLE when ReiQ came for him!
Simple : for WILLE, he's an Angel, thus an enemy, no arguing about it.


On a side note, the fact that the DSS Choker was made initially for Kaworu, means than WILLE thinks that Shinji have similar characteristics than Kaworu. Did they think that he could be an Angel? That would explain why using a DSS Choker on him : if they just wanted the "blows your heads off when we press the button" option, a simple explosive fixed with a collar and sealed with an electronic lock would have done the trick as well, instead of the glowing red energy spikes of death!
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Postby Reichu » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:48 pm

Looking at the Kaworu conversation again, I think UTW got this right. I'll have to fix that.

Note, however, that Japanese has no articles. As far as I know, it is just a liberty of the translation that produced "a" rather than "the".
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:19 pm

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:02 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Looking at the Kaworu conversation again, I think UTW got this right. I'll have to fix that.

Note, however, that Japanese has no articles. As far as I know, it is just a liberty of the translation that produced "a" rather than "the".

I admit I don't know about Japanese language, but the meaning that the DSS Choker was firstly made for Kaworu is still here, whether the one WILLE put on Shinji was the one intended to be put on Kaworu or another that they built for him.
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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:16 pm

Yeah... the galloping horses is my least favorite moment of the film. I like the rainbow colors concept they're working with & the filmmaker in me even appreciates the life action piano stuff inserted in there.... but the still frames & horses does not work for me.

Maybe "the place of hope" Shinji finds in 4.0 is he becomes a Pony & hangs out with Pony Kaworu.

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:45 am

The horses and the still frames don't actually spoil anything for me, but the change from animated images of hands playing to static images while the music continues does seem an odd choice, and I did raise a metaphorical eyebrow when I first saw that.
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Postby one-eyed » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:05 am

I even think Kaworu might have good intentions, but I always thought his behavior suspicious in the two previous films and, in Q, I came to believe that he had his own agenda (In Eva everyone has!). The cryptic phrases and timing it in 2.0 are very weird and are ignored in Q. Even his prior knowledge about Shinji is discarded.

The Unit 06 was completed when Gendo was still on the Moon.

Kaworu begins to act, proclaims that the time promised came and down to earth. He seemed to know what would happen and waited until the last second to act. Why? Anno wanted to add drama? Or want him to fail? Or was it on purpose? I dunno.

If Kaworu had arrived 15 minutes before the fight would have been Mari in Unit 02 and Unit 06 with Lance of Cassius against Zeruel: almost certain victory!

If he arrived 10 minutes before they would have been Rei, Mari and Kaworu with Lance of Cassius vs. Zeruel: again almost certain victory!

If he arrived 5 minutes before Shinji would have removed Zeruel from within the Control Room, was still in control of Unit 01 and almost winning the fight! Kaworu only need impale Zeruel and then they'd think of a way to rescue Rei.

I know this is Evangelion is not about making things right and convenient events (unless you're Gendo…), but still weird.

In Q, he withheld information, was deliberately vague and, frankly, I should not have believed him with this Plan of Redo. Again the timing does not seem right. He and Gendo seemed know that Shinji would leave the Unit 01 at that time and had everything ready. It makes no sense, even with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Will these scrolls are a cake recipe with chronological table and instructions? And do not mention the obvious Gendo’s treason? I would not trust Gendo to ask the time or check if it's raining, imagine commanding the Instrumentality! Omniscience and ignorance go hand in hand in Evangelion, according to the Plot.

Obs.: I think everyone in Eva had Deja Vu: In 2.0 Asuka reaches the Clockiel’s core with one shot. Shinji is surprised, but Misato says that it was false. And she was right! How the hell did she know that? There had never been an angel with a fake core!

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:48 pm

View Original Postone-eyed wrote:
Obs.: I think everyone in Eva had Deja Vu: In 2.0 Asuka reaches the Clockiel’s core with one shot. Shinji is surprised, but Misato says that it was false. And she was right! How the hell did she know that? There had never been an angel with a fake core!


Maybe the lack of a rainbow, cross-explosion or the Angel turning into red goo tipped her off?
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Postby TMBounty_Hunter » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:11 pm

After spending 6 NEET days with Q my feelings still haven't fully consolidated. Kaworu is one of the reasons for that. I've read through the thread but one thing still bugs me.

I mentioned in my initial reaction that I never liked TV Kaworu. I honestly hate the bastard. To me he was the person that hurt Shinji the most. He approached Shinji when he was most vulnerable, after he has given up on the rest of the people close to him. He let Shinji's heart see another ray of hope and proceeded to crush it in the most brutal way possible. Regardless of intent, his purpose was to send Shinji tumbling down.
I admit I haven't rewatched NGE/EoE in a very long time, but that was the appraisal of Kaworu that I've had pretty much since NME began.

Which is exactly why Q was so fascinating and pleasantly surprising. NME Kaworu is nowhere near as awkward and creepy. It's as if he's actually human with a full range of emotions.

Joy when he finally gets to play the piano with Shinji
And when lauching together
Confusion when he sees the spears
Realization of Gendo's scheming
Shock of seeing Shinji cut his control
Fear? of what will happen next
Resignation?
Strength for Shinji's sake?

Anno and friends have clearly put a lot of effort into Kaworu's performance. If you have the Groundwork books for the first two movies you'll see that there is A LOT of fixing and refixing bits of animation, especially facial expressions. I have no doubt they took their time on Q to make sure Kaworu's expressions are exactly what they wanted them to be. It paid off too. With every rewatch his emotions come across as that much more genuine. Especially for Shinji's movie. Being thrown into this crazy new world where everyone you knew acts like assholes, and yet Kaworu shows up and is genuinely nice. Yes he has his harsh moments during the infodump, but at least he's (presumably) honest. He may not have said what Shinji wanted to hear but he actually answered when Shinji asked. He's also literally the only one to reach out to Shinji when he stumbles. And why wouldn't you take his hand? All of this just makes his death that much sadder with every viewing, dread peaking just as 3EM30 starts playing. Going in with the mindset and preconceptions that I had I just never expected such a different and beautiful experience.


Despite the new feelings, my TV hate somehow still lingers deep down and over the weekend has manifested itself in the form of doubt towards NME Kaworu.

What if all of the above was just an act? It's already been discussed how Kaworu seems to work different from humans, he may not actually understand them, etc. But what if he does? He had 14 years to do whatever in his free time. What if he actually is a manipulative bastard, but not in the Jesus theory way? What if Shinji's sins don't actually matter to him? What if he was the master schemer all along? Gendo isn't the one who got rid of "SEELE's boy". Kaworu was the one that manipulated Gendo into freeing him from his human body and instead granting him that of Eva-13, which seems to be on-par with Eva-01 as far as apocalyptic powers go.
What if he just had his angel motives all along and doesn't care about humans beyond what is needed to manipulate them towards his goal? Because now he has his own doomsday machine, two spears, AND the heart of the only other doomsday machine pilot.
What if he comes back, yet again having betrayed Shinji and forcing him to be his executioner like in TV? This thought depresses me...

I realize that the Academy Award® Winning Actor Kaworu Nagisa theory may be an asspull or two too far, but it has been bugging me so much I just needed to get it out. Maybe 6 straight days of nothing but Q was too much...
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Postby Yokai » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:00 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:Easily one of the worst montages (in a good film) in movie history.
SPOILER: Show
ImageImageImageImageImage
The still frames. The still frames! The ultra lazy galloping horse symbolism. The superimposed sheet music. The cycling color filters.

This is, by far, the low point of the film. It should have just been the pretty inside-the-piano animation that made up that whole trailer that one time. Far better that way.


I actually... kind of liked this scene. In fact, my personal low point was the Wunder "battle" because of how silly the concept of it is and how abnormal the physics looks.

Anyway, I think it's pretty interesting how Kaworu x Shinji feels a little bit more... realistic. I guess what I mean to say is that it represents a real romantic relationship development more than any previous iteration. In many ways, the interaction between Kaworu / Shinji is pretty cutesy and Shinji himself is really feeling the romantic tension from the way he stares at kaworu in these scenes. It's interesting to see how different he interacts with him than any woman he'd previously interacted with, perhaps it's a real attempt to highlight that Shinji may actually be confirmed gay?

If you think about it, this really goes back to freudian thought. Freud was a firm believer that all people were in fact bisexual and that homosexuality came from distressing interactions with opposite sex / heterosexual situations. In other words, people developed from bisexuality toward either heterosexuality or homosexuality.

With Shinji, it seems that he hasn't had any positive interaction with women or men until he met Kaworu, so it makes sense that he would develop strong romantic feelings for him. I think one of the biggest reasons for this film existing is to highlight that Shinji really did love him and portray that purely from interaction (as opposed to EvaTV's monologue at the end of the episode with Misato.)

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Postby Monk Ed » Thu May 02, 2013 11:45 pm

TMBounty_Hunter wrote:Anno and friends have clearly put a lot of effort into Kaworu's performance. If you have the Groundwork books for the first two movies you'll see that there is A LOT of fixing and refixing bits of animation, especially facial expressions. I have no doubt they took their time on Q to make sure Kaworu's expressions are exactly what they wanted them to be. It paid off too. With every rewatch his emotions come across as that much more genuine. Especially for Shinji's movie. Being thrown into this crazy new world where everyone you knew acts like assholes, and yet Kaworu shows up and is genuinely nice. Yes he has his harsh moments during the infodump, but at least he's (presumably) honest. He may not have said what Shinji wanted to hear but he actually answered when Shinji asked. He's also literally the only one to reach out to Shinji when he stumbles. And why wouldn't you take his hand? All of this just makes his death that much sadder with every viewing, dread peaking just as 3EM30 starts playing. Going in with the mindset and preconceptions that I had I just never expected such a different and beautiful experience.

God damn, TMBounty_Hunter. You have single-handedly changed my entire opinion about Kaworu in this movie and the fact that he takes up so much of its screentime. Well done.


:drool:

I don't think I've ever wanted Kaworu more than I do now. :blush:
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Fri May 03, 2013 12:46 am

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