palerider1911 wrote:The SEELE icon popping up all over the place made me wonder about that. So...you think Mk.06 is another Adams Vessel, then?...or one of the surviving Adams?

My guess is that both Marks are the same, an Adam's vessel. whatever that means...

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:Didn't Asuka say something along those lines? Or was she just talking about the Mark.09?

Yes, she said something like "do you want to become an Adam's vessel?" when fighting Mark.09, bu it seemed to me she was talking to ReiQ inside Mark.09...

Reichu wrote:I think the terraformed, red-gridded Moon presents a much greater problem/mystery, to be honest.

But, yeah, I'm sure that dissecting the BD will bring in lots of new clues. There are lots of scenes that have "insane numbers" of Failures, so the amount of data we'll get from seeing them in HD should be sizable...

For what it's worth, anybody that downloaded the Sakura Nagashi trailer for Evangelion 3.0 back in November, you could actually see some of the FOI floating around the sphere like object (when it was speculated to be the Black Moon) that rose up from the ground when Shinji initiated the 4th Impact. I point this out because it's probably the closet thing we have at the moment that features some specific scenes in HQ (and HD), at least up until the Blu Ray comes out.

Jeez, all this speculation does is bring up more and more (unanswered) questions. Can we assume that Kaworu told Shinji the basics of his initiation of the 3rd impact (and its consequences) and probably left out some other details, you know, like his impaling of Unit-01 with the LoC by Mark.06, aborting said impact, something that conveniently is left out of his dialogue with the Shinj and not explaining the shit that went on with the Giant Marshmallow Lady down stairs during the 14 year time skip.

Rei IV wrote:not explaining the shit that went on with the Giant Marshmallow Lady down stairs during the 14 year time skip.

Well, Kaworu didn't bother to explain the details of things, because the world was going to be fixed anyway by him and Shinji.
So it wouldn't really matter to him. But now, as Kaworu failed and died, Shinji really needs some answers to what happened.
( at marshmallow part.)

Yeah, I'm curious about that myself. Hopefully, we'll be able to, as Reichu put it, "dissect" enough out of the BD to get some more information out of Beheaded Lilith.

Continuing from Reichu's post in the Rei thread, I wanted to add a new scenario of what went on in Central Dogma.

Here's another crazy fanwank I pulled out my ass:

Let's go with a scenario that they've manage to successfully retrieve Lilith's soul, put into a clone (not Rei Q) that is given a new unit (Unit-07 for shits and giggles), crazy shit ensues when the 12th Angel makes an appearances and come out of where ever it came from, and once again, we get a repeat of Rei getting eaten and absorbed with the hypothetical Unit-07, and said Angel merges with Lilith. A cranky and fussy Lilith awakens with the realization of what they're trying to make her to do (initiating another Impact and Instrumentality) and resists and a Mark.06 comes down to tame the beast. Mark.06 is able to "kill" Lilith. In this scenario this time, however, the consequence being that Mark.06, while absorbing the 12th Angel, manages to take just a fragment of Lilith's soul. In addition to this hypothetical scenario, when retrieving the huge portion of Rei's soul, it's further divided with a huge chunk of it being placed back into Unit-01 (with Shinji) and serving as the "home base" and with whatever little remains being placed into a Rei Q. This could POSSIBLY explain why the blob shows a mirror image of herself.

Once again, I'm pulling this completely out of my ass but it certainly does mirror Lilith's soul "division" in the Evangelion series, with Rei Q nearly being lobotomized and explaining the zombie demeanor. She's stuck in a bigger loop, far worse than the Rei in the Evangelion series.

There is a problem with your theory : isn't an Angel fusing with Lilith supposed to "just" create an Impact destroying any Lilith based life on Earth, so the ADAM based life could claim the planet for themselves?
Why should Lilith awaken and how could she resist the Angel, because of her soul present in Rei II and absorbed within the 12th?

Besides, no would have found it odd that Rei was salvaged from EVA-01 and not Shinji? Finally after being absorbed by and Angel and salvaged, being absorbed again by another Angel would be too repetitive.(and ridiculous)

My reference to Lilith's resistance has to do with the battle that most likely occurred in Central Dogma. Reichu had a shot that seemed to show what appeared to be a military type vechile or some shit, hinting some crazy shit went down and they were trying to keep Lilith at bay up to the point that lead to the deployment of Mark.06 and the reason they didn't retrieve Shinji was because it wasn't part of Gendo's script. Like I said, it's pulled completely out of my ass and repetitiveness and ridiculousness have no bearing if it gets the job done as well.

Rei IV wrote:So the screw-shaped object was the Black Moon rising from its foundations? Awesome. It's amazing all the new things that we're learning with the release of Evangelion 3.0 less than a week away.

Even the minor edits, like the ones on the Nemesis Series, are providing us with a lot of new things to think about. The forum might actually go through another round of the Q-splosion.

My post over here speculating on the origins of the Mk.04 series got me thinking again about Second Impact and the origins of the Angels.

Okay, let's take a look at some things...

- We pretty much know that "Instrumentality" in NME involves evolving individual humans into individual gods. This is also Seele's long-standing desire, and they believe it will bring peace to all souls.
- Near 3I gave us humans evolved into the "Failures of Infinity", a.k.a. dead 'n' red Evas.
- As elaborated in the linked post, the Mk. 04 series has something to do with Eva-04. A thought that comes to mind is that they were originally created by a "mini-impact" which Eva-04 was sacrificed to provide, using the members of the Second Branch as "evolutionary seeds". That a "product" is derived from Eva-04's destruction would tie into Kaji's suspicions about it not really being an accident.
- Gendo says of Second Impact that "There are those who hoped for this disastrous spectacle" -- i.e., 2I was engineered.

One thing that hasn't been addressed at all in NME is what exactly the Angels are, where they come from, and so forth. My best guess at the moment?

Second Impact might have been an attempt, directed by Seele, to use the Adams to artificially evolve the whole of humanity into gods -- their first stab at Instrumentality. For unknown reasons, things went wrong and the process was aborted. Alternatively, they made it happen as a necessary step toward greater goals which they already knew would involve Lilith. Either way, the "Instrumentality" was not a complete failure, as some of the expedition members were evolved into gods -- not Evas, but the polymorphous Angels.

This might be an interesting way to retain the "Angels are people" slant while making it more literally true. That is, they're not an "alternate version of humanity" as they are in NGE, but actually transformed Homo sapiens.

Nice.

It's all falling into place.

While re-watching 2.0, I realized the need for those silly suits in Q. Humans can't live in a post-impact world without it being restored first. Perhaps the environment Angel-ifies them?

We only see Shinji wearing one, if I remember correctly. Might it have something to do with his 14-year hiatus? Something in the air that people living through that time have been inoculated against or become immune to? Like a person traveling to Mexico, perhaps Shinji can't "drink the water" as a native can.

Warren Peace wrote:We only see Shinji wearing one, if I remember correctly. Might it have something to do with his 14-year hiatus? Something in the air that people living through that time have been inoculated against or become immune to? Like a person traveling to Mexico, perhaps Shinji can't "drink the water" as a native can.

What are you trying to imply about mexico?, where i live we have pure and clean water, so i don't know
where exactly did you travel to but that isn't the case for all of mexico cities.
And about Shinji, maybe the air in the epicenter isn't exactly as clean and harmless as it may be in other places, or maybe he was just scared and thought he might die of contamination or radiation.

http://gomexico.about.com/od/healthandsafety/ht/montezu_revenge.htm

If you're talking about when Kaworu showed him what happened to Tokyo-3, then I think that the air is toxic only around the Geofront : remember that after the final battle, Shinji, Asuka and Rei are all in the desert outside without any protective gear, and are perfectly fine.

Warren Peace wrote:http://gomexico.about.com/od/healthandsafety/ht/montezu_revenge.htm

I facepalmed while quietly laughing inside.

Advice if you ever travel to Mexico, avoid cities like TIjuana, DF, Monterrey and such, because those are the most contaminated cities we have, that is if you really wanna avoid "Moctezumas's" Revenge .
Back on Topic:
ElMariachi, i'd say so, yeah that's pretty much a valid assumption.

Hmm, I thought this would elicit more comment. Oh, well.

An additional thought I had is in regard to why Second Impact isn't labeled "Near" Second Impact or anything, even though it seems incomplete -- for example, it had a limited effect area, and looks like it was "frozen" partway through. My guess that the true test of an Impact's "completeness" -- i.e., whether it is "near" or not -- is whether complete gods are successfully created. If a handful of Angels, with their own Fruits of Life and everything, were born from Second Impact, this makes it an effective success. The piles of failures generated by Near Third Impact cannot compete.

One important question is, will 4I also be considered a "Near"? Or will this terminology end up being all but arbitrary?

Remember that in-universe, the term "Second Impact" comes from the covert story about what happened during the Katsuragi expedition in Antartica : the official story said that it was the impact of a meteorite that caused all these changes on Earth(although I fail to see how they managed to make people believe that a meteorite could turn the oceans blood red!), hence the name of "Second Impact", the First one being the one that killed the dinosaurs.
In that covert story, using the term "Near Second Impact" would mean that the meteorite actually missed the Earth, and no one would believe that seeing all the changes that happened to the planet.

Near Third Impact is "Near" probably because it was quickly interrupted by Kawory's intervention, although then I fail to see why it brought so much more damage to the biosphere than 2I, which lasted hours before being supposedly interrupted.

As for the NS Mark.4 created by the "mini-Impact" in Nevada, I've a problem with that : following your theory, Second Impact created 4 ADAMS(meaning freaking gods) and 13 Angels from the souls of the little handful from the Katsuragi Expedition, and what happened in Nevada where thousands of souls disappeared only created a bunch of little cores to make killer robots?
Unless FINAL reveals that there is thousands of NS and a gang of ADAMS born from this incident, I have some doubts.

ElMariachi: Kaworu says that Lilin are the ones who call it "Near Third Impact", while he's content to just call it plain ol' "Third Impact". Do all the Lilin know some semblance of the truth this time? Is there another cover story? Why the discrepancy between Lilin calling it "Near" and Kaworu not?

By the way, in NGE, First Impact didn't kill the dinosaurs. It corresponds to the Giant Impact that created the Moon. FI hasn't been mentioned in the new movies so far.

I'm not really committed to anything with regard to how the Adams came to be. We don't actually know if they were created by the Impact, or if they already existed in quintuple. I'm not sure there's enough information to make any calls on this one yet.

Discrepancies between the outcomes of Second Impact and the "mini-impact" can probably be explained by the different variables in play. That Second Impact created Angels, while Third Impact created Evas, already suggests that different kinds of outcomes are quite possible. We know that the "mini-impact" (MI?) involved an Eva equipped with an experimental energy source... but did that energy source qualify as a Fruit of Life, for instance? Were any Spears involved in the experiment? We just don't know.

I didn't mean to imply, BTW, that the mini-impact would have only created cores. It may have converted the 2nd Branch's personnel into whole pseudo-Angels. These would need to have initially lacked energy sources, allowing them to be modified through restraint technology into the Mk. 04s we see.

Good point. Perhaps the artificial appearance of the nemesis series is simply due to the fact that we are observing the bindings that are covering them. Does this mean that the nemesis series are organic to a degree?