thewayneiac wrote:I disagree with the notion that the Shinji and Asuka's Relationship page is a shipping page. There's a perfectly valid case to be made, based upon the evidence presented in the show, that it is the show's primary relationship. It's not shipping to lay out that evidence and draw conclusions from it.

I have to agree with this. It's really hard to look at the kitchen scene and claim with a straight face that Shinji's relationships with Rei and Misato have just as much of an impact on the course of events in the show. It's similarly difficult to look at the montage sequence in 22' and conclude that Shinji wasn't the primary cause of Asuka's downfall. Each was the personification of all the other shit that was wrong in their lives and I think it's a mistake to call for an effort to diminish that fact (particularly on a page devoted to analysis of Asuka and Shinji's relationship). That doesn't mean we should be calling them a couple, or suggesting that there are romantic feelings between them, since that's clearly not the case. But even so, coupledom is not the only way to be important to someone's life; human relationships are insanely complex, and it is easily possible to have a huge impact on someone's life with no romance whatsoever thrown into the mix.

As for shipping, I'd just as soon see it entirely absent from the wiki (or at least from mainstream pages; it's fine when discussing alternate works or fandom). I also wish we could discuss the characters' relationships without resorting to shipping of some sort, to say nothing of shipping wars.

AilesGrises wrote:So yeah, I can write this stuff over the following weeks/months whenever I have more free time. First I guess we should go over things in this/and some other thread to make sure I don't replace someone else's bullshit with my own, right? So, yeah. (I'll go read the wiki guidelines and whatnot this weekend)If there's more I need to know, please tell me.

There's only one thing you need to know here: tone. it. down. You're way, way too hostile and worked up at this point to produce anything that will stand the test of time. I'd suggest you take a few days and chill until you can look at things more-or-less objectively before tackling something like this.

Oenara wrote:Shipping isn't the only subject where the wiki favors one interpretation over another.

It's interesting that new members notice this so easily.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:http://eva.onegeek.org/pipermail/evangelion/2006-November/003855.html

Thanks, that was an informative reading.

Well, Bagheera, what can I say. Follow your own advice? I'm only familiar with various of your posts I've stumbled upon on the Rebuild of Evangelion section (and this previous one), and you come of as very hostile most of the time (including right now). But since we're both obnoxious geeks, I think we'll get along just fine, you and me. Won't we?

Bagheera wrote:I have to agree with this. It's really hard to look at the kitchen scene and claim with a straight face that Shinji's relationships with Rei and Misato have just as much of an impact on the course of events in the show.

That's like saying the last drop weighs more than the jarful. And first, again, I never focused only on these 3. If you think Shinji's relationship with his father or with Kaworu are not important to his decision to say goodbye to the world well, I'm not sure what to say.

You're weighing one scene against a whole show. Not even that. You're weighting some of the stuff in that scene against a whole lot else. I'd say it's important not to pull stuff out of context or look at scenes and elements within scenes in isolation. The narrative as a whole is what important. So let's not forget the park dream scence when it comes to Shinji's decision to start instrumentality, right? Let's not forget episode 25 and 26. Let's not forget that it is not solely Asuka that is brought up by the narrative in the final build-up to the beginning of instrumentality. Events don't jump from place to place. It's a process that is, implicitly, continuous. There is just SO MUCH you have to ignore to raise Asuka on the pedestal that you do.

If we are to look at that "right before instrumentality" stuff alone, it is in itself also a a pretty telling back and forth about Shinji's relationship with various people among which undeniably, there is Asuka too. And her role is very important. There's no mistaking that. But... not Asuka alone.

You can't just pull everything from the Asuka kitchen cuts (and a few others). There is a lot more in Evangelion than that. Why are you ignoring the analogous stuff that focuses on Misato right before, for example (and it's just an example that I picked due to proximity in editing). One thing leads into the other. That's how things work in real life and it is only common sense that is how they work in Evangelion as well. And even within the scene there's more than Asuka in the kitchen. When the film is edited so as to go back and forth between various characters, moments and "issues", it does so because they are important. "What's in the frame" - "show what matters". And there is a lot more in the frame than Shinji and Asuka.



The build up scene to the beginning of instrumentality is made up of a bunch of stuff. And again, there's nothing that makes the final straw weight more than everything else that brought the situation to this edge (which is the whole of Evangelion, if we are to look at things in rougher lines). The relationship between Asuka and Shinji is shown as falling apart in that scene specifically, because his relationship with everyone else was already dealt with by that point. It's a checklist. Between the 3 that feature prominently then, Misato and Rei are already "dealt with" by that point. Shinji has already rejected them in the respective circumstances. He has only to also reject the one that is left - Asuka. And then instrumentality begins.

It's similarly difficult to look at the montage sequence in 22' and conclude that Shinji wasn't the primary cause of Asuka's downfall.

"Funny", because it seemed to me that there was a whole lot more than Shinji being portrayed in that Asuka focused episode. It focuses on Asuka and her problems. Not on Shinji and Asuka's relationship. He is just another (important) part of her life. I don't think I have to do a cut by cut analysis (and I don't have the time right now, but if you really think that is necessary I am more than willing to do it) to see that. There's a lot being portrayed there. From her relationship with Shinji, to her relationship with other people in her life (like Kaji,Misato,Rei, her mother, her foster parents) to her own internal (psychological as well as physiological) concerns etc etc etc.

Even considering only the mind "rape" scene, yet again Shinji is not the only point of focus, but Asuka and her relationship with "others" in general. Please take into consideration everything that is shown. Also consider the sequences that go through Asuka's identity issues (the "This is not me","THis is not me","This is not me" cuts), also consider the scenes where she is walking around town and runs into a tellingly creepy crowd, also consider Kaji, also consider her mother, and by God also take the cuts with the young Asuka into consideration - the cuts which are the climax of that whole sequence. Not JUST Shinji. Cherry picking cuts and scenes, and more, cherry picking just parts from various cuts and scenes, this kind of stuff is not making for a valid (let alone compelling) argument.

Each was the personification of all the other shit that was wrong in their lives and I think it's a mistake to call for an effort to diminish that fact

Nice fanwank...

(particularly on a page devoted to analysis of Asuka and Shinji's relationship).

A page devoted to analysis of the relationship between Asuka and Shinji is one thing. A page devoted to a biased (mis)representation of that relationship is different thing altogether. But with that being said:

That doesn't mean we should be calling them a couple, or suggesting that there are romantic feelings between them, since that's clearly not the case. But even so, coupledom is not the only way to be important to someone's life; human relationships are insanely complex, and it is easily possible to have a huge impact on someone's life no romance whatsoever thrown into the mix.

We have no disagreements here. You put it splendidly!

NemZ wrote:I think you have it backwards; shit like this is the reason why only a handful of people are willing to contribute.

I'm referring to the episode and character pages. The theory stuff came after V had written 99% of the wiki by himself in a "just put something there and others will fix it later" way. And the few people who had the time to go through them to remove the non-factual or POV stuff did so much later, but a lot of what's still there was there from day one. The theory stuff is theory stuff, but I agree that "shipping" doesn't belong (I don't even understand why people even do that in general) and there's been a few instances I remember changing strong words like "love" to "concerned with" in places in the wiki. I don't think we should even have shipping pages, leave that for the parts of the forum that I don't visit.

thewayneiac wrote:If your views differ significantly from an existing Wiki page, you should consider writing an entirely new article and linking to it from the original rather than replacing anything. (Given this thread, the Shinji/Asuka page is an obvious example.)

Well, I think that depends a lot on what the criteria for a "Theory and Analysis" page are. But I am not against the idea. So...
But about your Shinji/Asuka page - no, that one definitely needs a rewrite. I will stand by this point.

Oenara wrote:It looks like not everyone is in agreement on what the wiki is for: Factual information only? Evageeks consensus interpretations? Evageeks majority interpretations? The interpretation of the most persistent editor? Interpretations found in the fandom at large? It would be a good idea to settle that first.

Besides the factual and unequivocal stuff that is a no brainer, I think the only other things that belong in the wiki are the things that stand valid after critical analysis and argumentation. Not the majority view nor the random interpretation editor X thought about while taking a shower which kinda "seems" to "work".

The wiki cannot be 100% objective (things are how they are), but I think it should be impartial to a reasonable degree.

AilesGrises: I'm not sure why you keep reading "this is the most important element" as "this is the only element". I don't see anyone saying that Shinji's relationships with Gendo and Kaworu weren't important, or that they had no contribution to his breakdown. But you seem to want to say everything has equal weight, or to think that anyone who claims otherwise is ignoring some or all of the other elements, and neither is true.

Avoiding a shipping slant on the wiki is a good thing, but if you let it push you too far in the other direction you wind up ignoring the obvious. And I promise you, if you push too far on this issue any work you do on the wiki will be undone in short order.

AilesGrises wrote:I think the only other things that belong in the wiki are the things that stand valid after critical analysis and argumentation.

Which is precisely what the Shinji/Asuka article is. It is the product of many years of debate on the issue on this and other forums, and reflects the long-held majority view of the EvaGeeks community. Opposing views are welcome, as I said, so if you can make a case that the Shinji/Asuka dynamic is not as important as we say, turn it into an alternative theory page. (Actually, one of OMF's proposed critique pages would be perfect.) But I doubt if you'll be able to force major changes in the existing article.

Also, Bagheera touched upon something that I had thought about mentioning: you have a real attitude problem. You won't last long around around here when you start out by saying our opinions are "bullshit". Calm down and state your opinions in a civil manner.

thewayneiac wrote:Opposing views are welcome, as I said, so if you can make a case that the Shinji/Asuka dynamic is not as important as we say, turn it into an alternative theory page.

The opposing view would probably be better held on the same page, rather than having two separate pages. just separate it with a title with opposing view or something to that effect, and line. That way, people don't have to constantly be loading two pages, and it is easily comparable between the two arguments.

Stryker wrote:The opposing view would probably be better held on the same page, rather than having two separate pages. just separate it with a title with opposing view or something to that effect, and line. That way, people don't have to constantly be loading two pages, and it is easily comparable between the two arguments.

I don't disagree with that, but separate critique pages are part of OMF's planned wiki revision, so that's probably the way we'll go. (I do think that competing theories belong on separate pages, but I'm not convinced that separate refutation pages, which is what AilesGrises needs to create, are workable.)

thewayneiac wrote:I don't disagree with that, but separate critique pages are part of OMF's planned wiki revision, so that's probably the way we'll go.

Fair enough, but I'll be the first to start changing it if the plans change.

thewayneiac wrote:now that this system is being implemented this is the perfect opportunity to revive your version as an alternate theory page.

Not going to happen... the passion has long since gone and I've moved on to new projects with other communities. Besides, nobody wants to hear what I have to say unless they're already onboard with my view of things to start with, which is exceedingly unlikely in newbies because the well has been throughly poisoned.

I only wrote the article in the first place because I was momentarily annoyed at the continued existence of the archives, which I've once again learned to simply ignore along with several other parts of this forum. Now I only care enough about the wiki to be vaguelly spiteful.

NemZ wrote:Not going to happen... the passion has long since gone and I've moved on to new projects with other communities. Besides, nobody wants to hear what I have to say unless they're already onboard with my view of things to start with, which is exceedingly unlikely in newbies because the well has been throughly poisoned.

Even though I don't agree with them I've always been interested to hear about your ideas. I admit I'm not a very typical case, though.

Bagheera wrote:AilesGrises: I'm not sure why you keep reading "this is the most important element" as "this is the only element". I don't see anyone saying that Shinji's relationships with Gendo and Kaworu weren't important, or that they had no contribution to his breakdown. But you seem to want to say everything has equal weight, or to think that anyone who claims otherwise is ignoring some or all of the other elements, and neither is true.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you then. Or maybe we're misunderstanding each other. What I'm trying to say is that it's pretty ambiguous and hard to justify (and in my opinion also besides the "point") which relationships are more "important" in this sense, not that all are equal. The way I see it, giving the Asuka / Shinji relationship a privileged position can only happen if you ignore certain things. That's how it comes off in the way you justify that stance at least. I just felt I had to point out "hey, don't forget about these guys". That it is the "most important" relationship is a very, very strong assertion to make. And that requires some strong evidence (and evidence that I think isn't really available).

For example, the way you put the argument kinda seems that you're saying the kitchen scene somehow makes Asuka more important because that's the very last thing that happens before instrumentality (ending up being something like a "trigger" for it) when there is more to it being "last" than that (a view which I explained in my previous post). If that's not why you think the kitchen scene makes Asuka's relationship with Shinji more important then the others, then that's just my fault for misunderstanding I guess. (I've yet to go through that thread Mr. Tines posted)

Avoiding a shipping slant on the wiki is a good thing, but if you let it push you too far in the other direction you wind up ignoring the obvious

Like I said before, I don't want to swing from one extreme to the other myself. It's not my place to dictate what and how someone should enjoy in a work.

And I promise you, if you push too far on this issue any work you do on the wiki will be undone in short order

I'm not sure I follow... is there something I should know about concerning this?

thewayneiac wrote:Which is precisely what the Shinji/Asuka article is. It is the product of many years of debate on the issue on this and other forums, and reflects the long-held majority view of the EvaGeeks community. Opposing views are welcome, as I said, so if you can make a case that the Shinji/Asuka dynamic is not as important as we say, turn it into an alternative theory page. (Actually. one of OMF's proposed critique pages would be perfect.) But I doubt if you'll be able to force major changes in the existing article.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with WHAT that article presents per se, but with HOW it presents it. There is some really strong wording, weird nuance and some things that are presented as being a lot more clear than they actually are in the series. Given that there are other users who expressed a similar POV about these issues I am inclined to think that what's in that theory and analysis page isn't quite the product of many years of debate, or more specifically not only that. It's all an issue of where to draw the line really.

Also, Bagheera touched upon something that I had thought about mentioning: you have a real attitude problem. You won't last long around around here when you start out by saying our opinions are "bullshit". Calm down and state your opinions in a civil manner.

Ok. My first posts were written offhand, and in a hurry. I already apologized for that in my second post. It kinda happened (and it won't be the last time, sucks to be me), what can I say. But a lot of perceived agression and whatnot seems to be there because text chops off bug chunk of communication and I just didn't find time to "groom" them. I don't think you'd find me anywhere near as obnoxious in person (or maybe you'd think I'm an even bigger asshole, who knows). Not much more I can say (or change, now) about this issue so I'll just let it fizzle out... Mea culpa, but I'll probably step on your shoes again in the future. It's just how I talk/write, not something intentionally disagreeable.

AilesGrises wrote:Maybe I'm misunderstanding you then. Or maybe we're misunderstanding each other. What I'm trying to say is that it's pretty ambiguous and hard to justify (and in my opinion also besides the "point") which relationships are more "important" in this sense, not that all are equal. The way I see it, giving the Asuka / Shinji relationship a privileged position can only happen if you ignore certain things. That's how it comes off in the way you justify that stance at least. I just felt I had to point out "hey, don't forget about these guys". That it is the "most important" relationship is a very, very strong assertion to make. And that requires some strong evidence (and evidence that I think isn't really available).

It's right there in the kitchen scene in EoE. The ambiguity you spoke of applied in the helltrain sequence, sure, but in the end it came down to those two. And that's not the only place, either -- there was also the hospital scene, the back and forth about how Asuka would rather die than do it with him, the fact that those two wound up on the beach together, all of the Director's Cut edits that embellished this relationship and did nothing for the others, etc. There's really nothing to justify in light of all of that.

Now, in the broadcast version of the series matters are very, very different. It's easy to argue that their relationship was no important than any other, and the ending strongly supports that interpretation. But the DC/EoE material puts a completely different spin on things and it's not shipping in the least to acknowledge that fact.

For example, the way you put the argument kinda seems that you're saying the kitchen scene somehow makes Asuka more important because that's the very last thing that happens before instrumentality (ending up being something like a "trigger" for it) when there is more to it being "last" than that (a view which I explained in my previous post).

That's exactly what it is. If Asuka hadn't rejected him at that point the movie would have turned out very differently. If you don't believe that you don't, but there's a reason Shinji ran to her and not to Misato or Rei (who were also present in P3II).

I'm not sure I follow... is there something I should know about concerning this?

The wiki's a community endeavor. If you make changes the bulk of the community doesn't agree with someone will change it back.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with WHAT that article presents per se, but with HOW it presents it. There is some really strong wording, weird nuance and some things that are presented as being a lot more clear than they actually are in the series. Given that there are other users who expressed a similar POV about these issues I am inclined to think that what's in that theory and analysis page isn't quite the product of many years of debate, or more specifically not only that. It's all an issue of where to draw the line really.

You should read through that page Mr. Tines linked, as it lays all of this out pretty clearly. I'm generally the first to admit that community consensus on some matters is a bit too pat -- gods know I've been bucking orthodoxy a lot recently -- but you need more to work with if you're going to make the claims you're pushing here (particularly when you're saying that relationships that are flatly ignored for half the series are just as important as those that take front and center; if you wanna talk Kaworu or Gendo there's a hell of a lot of room for discussion, but Misato and Rei are non-starters given their treatment in the show. That doesn't mean they aren't important, but they just don't have the primacy the Asuka, Gendo, or Kaworu relationships do).

Ok. My first posts were written offhand, and in a hurry. I already apologized for that in my second post. It kinda happened (and it won't be the last time, sucks to be me), what can I say. But a lot of perceived agression and whatnot seems to be there because text chops off bug chunk of communication and I just didn't find time to "groom" them.

Find the time. It's not like we're going anywhere.

Bagheera wrote:if you push too far on this issue any work you do on the wiki will be undone in short order

That's a downside of wikis in general: They tend to reflect the POV of the person who has the most time and stamina to revert edits, or the POV with the largest number of dedicated believers to split up guard duty. The problem is that those POVs aren't necessarily the most knowledgeable, factual, or unbiased.

I'm not familiar with the Evageeks wiki's editing rules, so it could be that they have some way to prevent this.

thewayneiac wrote:It is the product of many years of debate on the issue on this and other forums, and reflects the long-held majority view of the EvaGeeks community.

I haven't read the article in question, nor the years of debate, but longtime members in this thread have differed on whether the article reflects a consensus. Regardless, my question stands: What is the wiki meant to reflect? Objective fact? Neutral POV? The views of a handful of longtime Evageeks posters? The views of all Evageeks members? The views of the Evangelion fandom at large?

I think that coming to a conclusion on the wiki's purpose would be helpful - and a prerequisite to discussing ways to improve it.


And please, let's all work at remembering to practice civility ourselves, as well as asking it from others...

AilesGrises wrote:

SPOILER: Show

But that being said, my POV doesn't change. :P

That's fine. Most of us here are really stubborn about our opinions.

NemZ wrote:...nobody wants to hear what I have to say unless they're already onboard with my view of things to start with...

I'm with Bagheera on this one. I usually find your opinions interesting and informative, just not convincing. And since the "Shinji/Asuka is a retcon" theory is your baby, you'd be the best one to turn it into an alternate theory Wiki article.

Oenara wrote:That's a downside of wikis in general: They tend to reflect the POV of the person who has the most time and stamina to revert edits, or the POV with the largest number of dedicated believers to split up guard duty. The problem is that those POVs aren't necessarily the most knowledgeable, factual, or unbiased.

I'm not familiar with the Evageeks wiki's editing rules, so it could be that they have some way to prevent this.

As of late with the attention regarding the revisions for the wiki, I do believe we have came to the consensus that whatever disagreements with the wiki was had, that it would discussed in thread made in this sub-forum. So, in this case, this thread is rather responsible on the OP's part in which they did not apply for scribehood first, and then change it to their liking. I am thankful for that, for this is an important subject that must duly be discussed.

thewayneiac wrote:I'm with Bagheera on this one. I usually find your opinions interesting and informative, just not convincing. And since the "Shinji/Asuka is a retcon" theory is your baby, you'd be the best one to turn it into an alternate theory Wiki article.

His baby? It's stone cold fact, my friend. There was just nothing to it before the DC edits rolled around. I think hanging onto it at this point is silly given that that horse has long since left the barn, but acting like he's a maverick when talking about the broadcast version of things is unfair IMO.

Oenara wrote:I'm not familiar with the Evageeks wiki's editing rules, so it could be that they have some way to prevent this.

It's not an open registration wiki; you need to be a member of this forum and then ask for wiki editing rights. That way we know who will be doing the editing and that they at least know their stuff. Some people have said this is an elitist policy, but I don't agree. I can't think of a single instance where any member who asked was denied wiki privileges.

What is the wiki meant to reflect? Objective fact? Neutral POV? The views of a handful of longtime Evageeks posters? The views of all Evageeks members? The views of the Evangelion fandom at large?

I think that coming to a conclusion on the wiki's purpose would be helpful - and a prerequisite to discussing ways to improve it.

It's supposed to reflect the views of the EvaGeeks community as a whole, but in practice it reflects the views of the EvaGeeks members who care enough to become wiki editors. The project was originally started because we felt there were many errors in the at-large Evangelion fandom.

Bagheera wrote:His baby? It's stone cold fact, my friend. There was just nothing to it before the DC edits rolled around. I think hanging onto it at this point is silly given that that horse has long since left the barn, but acting like he's a maverick when talking about the broadcast version of things is unfair IMO.

I of course, don't agree. But there's a valid enough argument to be made that it deserves a wiki article. If NemZ won't write it perhaps you should.

In a way I don't understand NemZ attitude here. I think it's important to have someone challenge the communities beliefs, to force us to reevaluate our conclusions even if we ultimately don't agree. If there wasn't someone that kept us thinking this place would be dreadful. But on the other hand I can see how it would be frustrating.