Do you Dislike Q?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Bagheera » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:57 pm

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:Fact: You will love the whole rebuilt series no matter what, in time.


No, I won't. It's not a matter of getting used to it for me; I have had plenty of time to get acclimated to the new movies, and that's why I feel the way I do now. Note I'm not saying Q's an awful movie here: it's very good for what it is, and for doing what Anno seems to want to do. But that doesn't mean it works for me.

Also, i think that Anno broke NGE during the production more than he "broke" Q.


I don't think that's true. I don't think that has much to do with the points I listed above, either.

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:Everybody has their list of big digressions they wish to see, but if that doesn't directly concern Shinji, Anno ain't havin' it.


Which would have been fine if he'd been doing an original story instead of a rebuild of an established property, and which would have worked if he hadn't introduced all sorts of shit dressed up as relevant plot points right before he casually discarded it. It's not an issue of medium or comparison to NGE; it's an issue of what Anno actually did in the films he made, judged strictly on its own merits.
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Postby Jadley » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:01 pm

I don't dislike Q at all, if anything the only thing i really disliked was the time-skip.....
It was a big turnoff for me, Q just broke all my expectations, everything i thought the movie could be was blown away in the first 15 minutes, again i can't really express all my feelings for the movie until i see in the proper way(not in that awful and horrible camrip), but i don't think i have ever felt more Desperate, Depressed and Angry about a movie like i have with Q, it's just too much to take in.
It truly is a tragic and beautiful film.
It's too late to pry away.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:06 pm

@Topic
I am entirely indifferent to Q. It provided some amusement (primarily via the reactions of others) in the immediate aftermath of the release when we were deciphering a partially corrupted stream of posts from 2ch; but that's it.

To an extent, Q was make or break for me but not quite in the same way as it was for Bagheera. The test was "would it make me pop the shrinkwrap on the copy of 2.22 that's sitting just out of arm's reach where I am typing and has been for what, 2 years now (where it's keeping company with the 5/6 mint collection of Texhnolyze DVDs)." -- and it didn't motivate me that far. At the moment, it will take something spectacular in Final for me even to get around to letting a copy of 3.33 gather dust beside the two earlier volumes.

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:Just my two cents, but isn't this thread a quasi-clone of the Q reaction thread?
At least it's not a Shinji thread.
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Postby Giji Shinka » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:09 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:I have no idea what that last sentence is supposed to mean. Why do people constantly compare the demands of an (about) 10 hour TV series to four hour-and-forty-minute-ish movies? They were more "developed" at this point in the series? That's because TV can have stuff like "Maya getting laundry" be a plot point. You can wish Rebuild were episodic (sometimes I do to), but a movie is a movie and a TV series is a TV series. Anno locks in on the most relevant points, sacrificing the sprawl of TV for focus. This shit is about Shinji. I know not everyone's happy about that, but I applaud Anno's resistance of temptation as far as the shiny tangents he could have taken. Everybody has their list of big digressions they wish to see, but if that doesn't directly concern Shinji, Anno ain't havin' it.

You are my hero. :asuka_thumbsup:

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Postby CJD » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:22 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:EDIT: Apparently this is a partial clone of CJD's post. Huh.


Considering all the people saying otherwise you and anyone else are welcome to clone my post as much as you like. We can lament Q in a corner together. :shinji_boohoo:

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:Life is harsh.
You can't always get everything you want in life.
I think that people who have lost something, have been depressed or haven't achieved anything understand and love this film more. (Like me)


Hihi! You're right, life is harsh! You see, that's why I enjoy fiction, because stories can offer an escape from the harshness of the real world!

As for people who have "lost something, have been depressed or haven't achieved anything" understanding and loving this film more, you can write me down as going against your expectation. In fact, as someone who's been depressed I see no reason why I could love this film. I've experienced depression enough over my life to know I'm not fond of it, so I fail to see how a movie designed as a tragedy would ever be appealing to me. I have no interest in tragedies, if I want to be sad I'll get off the computer and ruminate life.

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:At least it's not a Shinji thread.


Always one to highlight the bright side of things, aren't you Tines? :lol:

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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:31 pm

View Original PostCJD wrote:I've experienced depression enough over my life to know I'm not fond of it, so I fail to see how a movie designed as a tragedy would ever be appealing to me. I have no interest in tragedies, if I want to be sad I'll get off the computer and ruminate life.
I don't mean to pounce, and it's not entirely in keeping with the purpose of the thread, but since this notion of the film/s as a tragedy keeps coming up.... in what way wasn't the original series and EoE a tragedy? I'm not interested in getting pedantic here, and I know it's all open to various interpretations, but the original series and EoE definitely skate the line of depressing, tragic, etc. There are moments of philosophical light, and occasionally bombastic music of triumph (Expansion of Blockade, False Regeneration) and scenes to accompany them on par with the similar moments of Rebuild (Tsubasa wo Kudasai, Yamashita) but the truth is and has always been apparent that Eva, in all its serious incarnations, is heavy dark stuff.

I return again to my rumination in (some thread I can't remember which) of 'how was anyone ever really expecting these to be a brighter happy version of Eva?' and really even pre-Q there simply was never compelling reasoning or evidence for that. I don't say that to squirt lemon juice onto the wounds of those burned, but really... I just don't get it. For a long time it was treated as if gospel, as if word on high... but it was never really from anything, and I'm flummoxed to find things that would lead to that in the watching of the first two films, aside from those who just weren't thinking about what had happened and why it had happened.
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Postby CJD » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:41 pm

View Original PostSeele00TextOnly wrote:I don't mean to pounce, and it's not entirely in keeping with the purpose of the thread, but since this notion of the film/s as a tragedy keeps coming up.... in what way wasn't the original series and EoE a tragedy?


No no, it was a tragedy. But I was a different person back then. In many ways Eva was what turned me off from tragedies, because it was so tragic I had no desire to go back to that state. Honestly, Eva was the first fictional work that made me feel that much. The closest thing before was a sadness at endings or the occasional well handled death of a character, but Eva was the first story that actually made me depressed.

I return again to my rumination in the Reactions thread of 'how was anyone ever really expecting these to be a brighter happy version of Eva?' and really even pre-Q there simply was never compelling reasoning or evidence for that. I don't say that to squirt lemon juice onto the wounds of those burned, but really... I just don't get it.


Quite frankly I just don't get how, before Q, anyone thought otherwise. In hindsight yea, we can look back and see the hints that Rebuild was dark, but when 1.0 ends with climactic defeat of Ramiel, and 2.0 ends with Shinji going full TTGL and 3I allegedly being stopped by Kaworu, I can't look at the previous two movies and see any reason to see them as anything other than brighter and happier. Hell, NGE never had Shinji embracing Rei. Even the adrenaline pumping moments of NGE were highlighted by something negative: the bestial nature of Unit 01 when it defeats Leliel and Zeruel.

You know, I don't know if I've said this here, but the irony is before I joined this forum I used to think Rebuild would be darker. I remember arguing with people who complained about the action focus of 1.0 and 2.0 by pointing out how much "brighter" the first half of NGE was, that they were judging the first half of Rebuild by comparing it to the last half of NGE. Then I came here and someone, Bagheera I think, pointed out that the first half of NGE had quite a few introspective elements that weren't in Rebuild, and that's when I was like "Huh... I guess he's right, I suppose Rebuild is gonna be a more "happy" version of Eva."

Fuck me, right?

Edit: That's not to imply whoever convinced me thought NME would be brighter by the way. Whoever it was just thought it lacked the depth of NGE. I made the leap that shallower=brighter on my own.
Last edited by CJD on Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Jadley » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:42 pm

View Original PostCJD wrote:As for people who have "lost something, have been depressed or haven't achieved anything" understanding and loving this film more, you can write me down as going against your expectation. In fact, as someone who's been depressed I see no reason why I could love this film. I've experienced depression enough over my life to know I'm not fond of it, so I fail to see how a movie designed as a tragedy would ever be appealing to me. I have no interest in tragedies, if I want to be sad I'll get off the computer and ruminate life.

I agree with you here, i didn't expect Q to be tragic nor depressive, if anything i think i expected the total opposite of that, which is probably one of the reasons i ended up being crushed by the movie.
And as you said "I have no interest in tragedies" either that is why i usually hate tragic films,
i don't like pain, i hate it, but i don't look away from it,
although i can't say i hate Q but, i really am hesitant to say "i like it"(just like you lol, and i copied your post without noticing aswell x.x).
It's too late to pry away.

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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:50 pm

View Original PostCJD wrote: when 1.0 ends with climactic defeat of Ramiel, and 2.0 ends with Shinji going full TTGL and 3I allegedly being stopped by Kaworu, I can't look at the previous two movies and see any reason to see them as anything other than brighter and happier. Hell, NGE never had Shinji embracing Rei. Even the adrenaline pumping moments of NGE were highlighted by something negative: the bestial nature of Unit 01 when it defeats Leliel and Zeruel.
Well... I mean the Ramiel scene of 1.0 is more punctuated to me by the new inclusion of Shinji whining that he's the only one that suffers, and not seeming particularly convinced by Misato's speech to him.

2.0 has Asuka getting physically chomped in the mouth of a giant mechanical kill beast.

2.0 has Shinji running away after already knowing about Lilith

2.0 has Shinji already completely, contentedly, turning away from reality and the outside world, both in his helltrain sequence and in the run-up to saving Rei.

These were all so intensely foreboding, negative, and most importantly unprecedented outside of EoE that it really seems odd that there was ever question or debate on the matters.

It really does seem that Shinji finding a place of happiness was all it would take for some people. An embrace and a fadeout. But whether or not the narrative is all about him, the world and the characters are not all about him. This really is a fundamental divergence on the nature of experiencing and being engrossed in a narrative, I suppose. The different ways we inhabit a work.
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Postby Warren Peace » Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:51 pm

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:You are my hero. :asuka_thumbsup:


:tiphat:

In a way, Rebuild's universe is TOO interesting. There are all these little corners you could devote a novel to. Sentences beginning with "wouldn't it be interesting to see..." are INFINITE. Q just makes that worse. But Anno, he's laser-focused on the heart of the story. It's frustrating to see him get zero credit for this.

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Postby Giji Shinka » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:18 pm

Hihi! You're right, life is harsh! You see, that's why I enjoy fiction, because stories can offer an escape from the harshness of the real world!

As for people who have "lost something, have been depressed or haven't achieved anything" understanding and loving this film more, you can write me down as going against your expectation. In fact, as someone who's been depressed I see no reason why I could love this film. I've experienced depression enough over my life to know I'm not fond of it, so I fail to see how a movie designed as a tragedy would ever be appealing to me. I have no interest in tragedies, if I want to be sad I'll get off the computer and ruminate life.

Guess i take fiction too seriously, ;)
But one thing i can say for sure, that i've had much harder depression that you've ever had. My father died when i was 9= super depression after that, moving from Sweden to Finland. (everything was new and confusing, like Shinji had in 3.0), everyone hated/didn't like me in middle school because how i looked. So yeah, enough reasons for relating to the situations that Shinji and others are in? After watching Evangelion i've learned a lot. Srry for cliche lines.....^_^

He's laser-focused on the heart of the story. It's frustrating to see him get zero credit for this.
Yup, considering how much time and effort he has put to it. During the prodution Anno could've had just gone a simpler road: just put the same scenes from NGE. But he chose the harder one. :thumbsup:

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:58 pm

I do (not) dislike Q. :wink:

Actually, I do not dislike Q.

Two thoughts:

(1) I imagine that Anno sees the progression from one film to another as appropriate, however hard it is for us to comprehend. If we don't see it that way, either it is simply our failure, or Anno has seriously failed to do what he thinks he has done.

(2) At the announcement of Rebuild it was said that the first three films would cover similar ground to the series, and the last would be new. This may have gone completely by the board; but I invite you to consider the extent to which Q has parallels with EoE, and what effect that might have on how the resolution is handled in Final.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:07 pm

View Original PostCJD wrote:Considering all the people saying otherwise you and anyone else are welcome to clone my post as much as you like. We can lament Q in a corner together. :shinji_boohoo:

I'd say Lamentation Buddies, but that would just be sad.

I think my current opinion of Q will have a lot to do with how FINAL weaves everything together.

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Postby Guy Nacks » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:13 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:
(1) I imagine that Anno sees the progression from one film to another as appropriate, however hard it is for us to comprehend. If we don't see it that way, either it is simply our failure, or Anno has seriously failed to do what he thinks he has done.

(2) At the announcement of Rebuild it was said that the first three films would cover similar ground to the series, and the last would be new. This may have gone completely by the board; but I invite you to consider the extent to which Q has parallels with EoE, and what effect that might have on how the resolution is handled in Final.


I honestly have to wonder what this series would have been like had Anno gone into 1.0 the way he did with 2.0 and Q and had chosen to significantly alter the series from the get-go.
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Postby Warren Peace » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:27 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:I'd say Lamentation Buddies, but that would just be sad.


"When you hear the sound of Rebuild, don't you get too scared,
Just grab your Lamentation Buddy and say these magic words:
Fuck you Rebuild, you can suck my dick, you can't get me
Rebuild cause you're just Anno's farts"

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:39 pm

View Original PostWarren Peace wrote:
"When you hear the sound of Rebuild, don't you get too scared,
Just grab your Lamentation Buddy and say these magic words:
Fuck you Rebuild, you can suck my dick, you can't get me
Rebuild cause you're just Anno's farts"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

This is... wow.

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Postby Electric Sachiel » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:44 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:The test was "would it make me pop the shrinkwrap on the copy of 2.22 that's sitting just out of arm's reach where I am typing and has been for what, 2 years now (where it's keeping company with the 5/6 mint collection of Texhnolyze DVDs)." -- and it didn't motivate me that far. At the moment, it will take something spectacular in Final for me even to get around to letting a copy of 3.33 gather dust beside the two earlier volumes.


I suppose your fine with 2.22 and 3.33 being in their shrink wraps because you have downloaded copies sitting in your PC's harddrive?

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:57 pm

I believe he hasn't watched them, so that his commentary can remain untainted by direct knowledge.

But he should be ashamed, letting Texhnolyze sit unwatched!
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:07 pm

Seele: It might help if I elaborate on my terminology a bit. When I lamented Shinji's role as a tragic rather than pathetic character I didn't mean "oh noes, Q has the darks and shit". In fact, if you'll recall I was pretty vocal about the fact that Break's end could hardly be seen as anything but tragic, with Misato's reactions telling us everything we need to know about the matter. I did not go into Q expecting fluffy bunnies.

No, when I spoke of tragedy and pathos I was using the terms very deliberately, in their classical dramatic sense: in NGE Shinji was a pathetic character, i.e. a victim of his circumstances, someone who fights the good fight but who is ultimately screwed over by fate (Seele/his father/Yui/etc). Simply put, what happens to him is not his fault, and even when as his absolute lowest his actions or lack thereof never actually create bad situations (3I proper being the one exception, though even his detractors don't usually hold that against him given the circumstances). Note that a pathetic character is not necessarily weak or contemptible, as suggested by modern use of the term: indeed, one of the classic examples of such a character is Odysseus, the Greek hero, and he is unquestionably one of the toughest, most competent, most undeniably heroic badasses in all of literature. But he is ultimately still just a mortal, and if the gods are inclined to fuck with him there's nothing he can do about it. That means he is pathetic, even though we would hardly label him such today given the modern use of the term.

By contrast the Shinji in the NTE is a tragic character, i.e. someone who precipitates his own destruction via his own bad decisions. Shinji is responsible for 3I, just as he's responsible for running away from Wille, 4I, and any manner of other things. In a cruel bit of irony Shinji actually has more agency in the NTE than he did in NGE, which would normally be a good thing. But in this case it's coupled with such bad decision-making on his part that the character becomes more contemptible and makes sympathy more difficult. It might help to compare his role in the NTE with Asuka's in NGE: she is a similarly tragic character, but her tragedy is born of her reactions to the things that happen to her (which are beyond her control) rather than of colossally stupid decisions on her part. She is still very much responsible for her own destruction, but she's more sympathetic because her reactions are born of her being who she is rather than loads of derp needed to move the plot along.

So that's what I was getting at. Tragedy's okay, but I find pathos much more sympathetic and interesting, particularly when it's used intelligently. Anno managed that in NGE. He seems to have abandoned it utterly in the NTE, and I don't care for it one little bit (particularly when he robs every other character in the show of their agency to make it happen, something that is very much not necessary even in a movie context).
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Atropos » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:17 pm

Tragedy is preferable, since it demonstrates to the audience how not to screw themselves and everyone else over. Your 'pathos' is basically saying "You're screwed either way, so don't even try." A tragic character can be even more sympathetic than a pathetic character, since we see where they could have saved themselves and didn't.


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