I know one of the interpretations of Kaworu in the anime was that he was evil and befriended Shinji to disarm him. Most interpretations however go for the fact the Kaworu was good and that he may or may not be gay. EoE seem to support this since he was the one to talk Shinji to go back into real life.

However one thing that has bothered me one time when I watched EoE again. After Shinji strangles Asuka in the coffee scene. Then it goes to the trippy conversation with Shinji and Rei. Shinji says "you betrayed me, you betrayed my feelings" then Rei said "you only believed what you wanted to believe" While showing a picture of Kaworu.

So did Rei admit that Kaworu was manipulating him all a long? Was the ending part with Kaworu Shinji's "hallucination" of what he believed Kaworu was?

During the trippy sequence, Rei's words while showing the picture of Kaworu are "You misunderstood from the very beginning", but then it switches to images of the Asuka and Shinji kitchen scene when Rei says "You just believed what you wanted to believe". So I don't think it's meant to be a statement about Kaworu being evil, or anybody else being evil for that matter.

As for the ending part with Kaworu? Personally, I don't think that was fake. During that scene, Kaworu, Rei, and Yui are reassuring Shinji that other people can return, and so on. Since Shinji has no idea how instrumentality works, I'm pretty sure that's the real Kaworu and not just Shinji's imagination talking.

Another reason why I don't think Rei would tell Shinji that Kaworu is evil is because... well, it doesn't fit with what we saw in the TV series. A lot of people tend to just remember Rei's first impression of Kaworu, when she seemed suspicious. But Kaworu gave her clues about her true nature ("You're the same as me"), and later in the episode is when we see signs that Rei's powers are awakening (her A.T. Field). So it seems that she understood what he was trying to say, and shortly before Kaworu dies, he smiles up at her. I've seen a lot of people say that Kaworu was a lousy Angel of Free Will, but actually I believe that he helped Rei to gain the knowledge to finally betray Gendo in EoE. Lastly, in Evangelion Chronicle Side B, the relationship chart shows that Kaworu and Rei's relationship is "teammate, sympathy" (NOTE: that's what it says in the French edition; I don't have the original Japanese one).

Kaworu is a unique character because he's one of the few people who says what he truly means; he's not crippled socially, he finds passion and beauty in life, and he represents a balancing force that is otherwise unprecedented among the other characters. There doesn't seem to exist any malicious intent or manipulation of others within his character, unlike just about every other character in the show (Rei is possibly the only exception, which makes sense given her duality with Kaworu). Other people, humans specifically, always have that sense of separation among them, and can manifest as manipulation and distrust (see Gendo, Misato, Ritsuko, everybody). Kaworu says that he and Rei (together) represent hope (as well as the words "I love you"). As a symbol, Kaworu exists as the hope that man will one day be able to open their hearts to one another, which is exactly what he got Shinji to do (by being open-hearted first).

In EoE, Shinji accuses people of hiding behind their fake smiles and ambiguity, but Kaworu expresses a genuine compassion toward Shinji, which is really all the poor guy wanted, particularly at that moment in the series in which they met; the problem is that those emotions are so genuine and divine that they're almost inhuman (perhaps a standard we all might hold for our first love), which is why Shinji feels so betrayed when it is revealed that Kaworu is an Angel, leading him so far as to compare Kaworu to his own father.

I don't think he meant to betray Shinji, but in the end it unfortunately happened, just as many relationships have to unfortunately come to an end. The Shinji we see afterward is one that is not only coping with killing someone, but also one that is coping with losing someone dear and the extreme feeling of isolation afterward. I bet many of us can relate to that feeling, whether it was caused by a bad breakup, or a death in the family, etc. No one is at fault, but it's easy for us to blame both ourselves and the world, just as Shinji did in EoE.

Well said, Sachi! I believe you've pinpointed one of the reasons why some fans think that Kaworu is evil: it's because "normal" people aren't that open about their feelings (especially to someone they've just met), so Kaworu seeming "too nice" causes some folks to suspect that it must be a fiendish plot! But no, Kaworu really is that compassionate. It's just that he lacks regular Lilin inhibitions, that's all.

There are a lot of scenes in EoE that mix up seemingly random clips with seemingly random lines. Trying to make sense of it is not a good idea.

Elect G-Max wrote:There are a lot of scenes in EoE that mix up seemingly random clips with seemingly random lines. Trying to make sense of it is not a good idea.

You clearly haven't read any of Shin-Seiki's posts :P

Dream wrote:You clearly haven't read any of Shin-Seiki's posts :P

O paid attention to the film, or anything in Discussion, or . . .

But given the pattern he's establishing elsewhere that's not terribly surprising.

Oh, I've been paying attention. I'm just not a big fan of over-analysis. A skilled and dedicated bullshitter can make Sucker Punch seem like the most brilliant film of all time, but in the end, it's all just a Rorschach test. You see what you want to see if you look hard enough for it.

But that reply either means you're ignorant of what's been said on the subject or that you haven't grasped its significance. Either way you're wrong.

No one is forcing anyone to read or post in the discussion forum. If people want to add to discussions or constructively criticise, they're more than welcome. If people even want to seriously question whether we are all over-analysing something, or indeed everything, by all means ask. But no forum is a venue for anyone to throw a public episode of some kind. - OMF

We now return to your originally scheduled broadcast.

Elect G-Max wrote:Oh, I've been paying attention. I'm just not a big fan of over-analysis. A skilled and dedicated bullshitter can make Sucker Punch seem like the most brilliant film of all time, but in the end, it's all just a Rorschach test. You see what you want to see if you look hard enough for it.

Putting aside Sucker Punch's quality as a movie, you realize it had an actual intent and meaning, right? It's not a Rorschach test at all.