Masturbating on top of a comatose body

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

Bryan
Adam
Age: 31
Posts: 94
Joined: Mar 01, 2013
Location: Orange County
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bryan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:06 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:First, is this sexual assault?


Couldn't be more irrelevant since we are discussing the morality of it which the legality cares nothing for, but yes you are right.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Second, does it affect Asuka? Yes, it does. She was unconscious at the time, not dead, and as she noted during P3II she knew what he'd done.


No, it didn't at the time and never should have. It did because of a supernatural event called instrumentality linking the minds of everyone in the world. I'm going to assume Shinji didn't see that coming.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Don't you think it's odd that you're asking if something you consider to be "rude" or "dickish" is actually wrong?


Again, I consider it wrong when the person is conscious because it's affecting their state of mind. When the person is unconscious they do not have any sense of what you're doing.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:As to how it is different: let's turn that around. Do you see a difference between masturbating to a picture of your girlfriend and masturbating in her presence? I'm betting virtually everyone would feel very differently about the act depending on whether they're using a photo or an actual person for inspiration.

People are very irrational by nature so yeah they'll feel differently when anything at all is different even if they know the thing that is different doesn't matter. They'd probably be a lot more paranoid in this case. I fail to see how any of this makes the act somehow worse just because her body was there while Asuka was not.
Last edited by Bryan on Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 36
Posts: 3254
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Are... are you suggesting breaking laws isn't immoral?

for the love of god lock this thread
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

Bryan
Adam
Age: 31
Posts: 94
Joined: Mar 01, 2013
Location: Orange County
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bryan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:19 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:By doing it in the room with her, he's presenting it to her, whether she's conscious or not. Above, I pointed out that his masturbation could be read as a transgression to get her to become angry with him after shaking her and begging her to respond doesn't work.

It's the way he does it, not that he does it. He's saying "fuck you" to her in a very literal and visceral way. His act is not merely sexual, it's an expression of aggression and power, i.e. a rape.


These would all be valid points if she was conscious. The fact that she isn't trumps all of that because while I agree that was what he was doing, he could have done the same exact thing to a picture and it would have affected her the same. (not at all)

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:Are... are you suggesting breaking laws isn't immoral?

for the love of god lock this thread


Yes. Ever read a book by George Orwell? Or a history book for that matter?

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 36
Posts: 3254
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:21 pm

I have a feeling that opinion isn't going to get much traction in this case and for good reason.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

Nuclear Lunchbox
Agent Ahegao
Agent Ahegao
User avatar
Age: 23
Posts: 10368
Joined: Dec 13, 2012
Location: Japan
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:21 pm

View Original PostBryan wrote:These would all be valid points if she was conscious. The fact that she isn't trumps all of that because while I agree that was what he was doing, he could have done the same exact thing to a picture and it would have affected her the same.

It's the principle of the thing; he's wanking over a human body.

Squigsquasher
Banned
Age: 24
Posts: 3671
Joined: Feb 09, 2013
Location: The bonus 10th level of hell
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Squigsquasher » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:28 pm

I think there is no doubt that what Shinji did was absolutely sickening and deplorable. And nobody would believe that more strongly than Shinji himself.

However, I do not think Shinji is a fundamentally bad person. He would not have done what he did at the start of the series, or even halfway through it. By this point, Shinji is quite utterly broken. And he isn't proud of himself for doing it in the slightest. Even whilst he's in the middle of the "act" you can tell by his voice that he is hating himself for what he's doing, but can't stop himself.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the...incident is partly a result of sexual repression, self-inflicted repression at that. At no point prior to this do we see Shinji engaging in any kind of even vaguely romantic activity. He never flirts, never tries to express interest in anybody, never seems to "relieve" himself, and seems to feel ashamed of himself for thinking any even vaguely sexual thoughts about anyone. Just look how embarrassed and ashamed he felt after accidentally fell on top of Rei whilst she was naked.

Such repression (probably imposed because he felt that if he was so repressed, people would think better of him) led to a desire for intimacy, and in turn perverse lust. Whilst Shinji is in general a genuinely nice boy, he does have a dark side to him, one that has been exacerbated by his experiences, the mental strain of piloting Unit 01 (for example, becoming so highly synced with Unit 01 when it is going berserk will probably have caused a huge amount of damage to his brain, as piloting an Eva whilst highly synced can cause mental contamination, no doubt leaving him with a potential for fits of violent rage) and to some degree by his attempts to conceal it.

We can see this dark side later in the film, in an event which technically speaking occurs before the hospital scene. Shinji is completely traumatized after the events with Kaworu, and is pleading Asuka for some kind of comfort. Asuka is then, to put it mildly, extremely cruel to Shinji. Shinji completely snaps, and his other side appears, the side of him that is extremely prone to anger and violence. He completely loses control of himself and tries to strangle Asuka (which is potentially the reason she's in hospital anyway). This is just one facet of the side of Shinji which has grown like a tumour inside him: the aggressive, violent, lustful, bestial side which he has fought for so long to keep in check, but has eventually overwhelmed him.

I don't think that Shinji was shaking Asuka to get a reaction because he wanted to get back at her. At this point I think he was so depressed and desperate for intimacy and tenderness that any kind of attention, even being shouted at, would be better than having to watch one of your few friends (if Asuka can be called that) lying in a coma, completely unresponsive. Likewise, I think that his...ahem...date with Rosie Palms was once again out of a craving for intimacy, albeit a craving that has been perverted and warped by Shinji's shattered mind.

It's also worth mentioning that at this point, he doesn't just hate what he's done. He absolutely detests himself. He has realized that not only can he not protect his friends from the Angels and other people, he can't even protect them from himself. Hate him as much as you like, because it doesn't come close to how much he hates himself.

Another point which I think is quite interesting is something related to Shinji's character from a writing standpoint, rather than why he did what he did in terms of the story. Shinji is actually a genderflip of the traditional useless moeblob female character. He is reclusive, vulnerable, prone to becoming very upset easily (although for good reason), has inner strength that they cannot realize, falls over a lot, longs for praise from someone they look up to (although it's his father instead of a boyfriend, and he doesn't exactly love him) and clings to what little affection he can get. Now imagine if Asuka was a boy, called Akira, and Shinji was a girl, called Seiko. Put them in the hospital scene. Now, a cute young girl masturbating by the side of the bed of a boy she feels affection for whilst he sleeps would be considered "cute" by many (and probably wouldn't be considered as sexual assault), even if it is still rather...odd. However, when the genders are reversed, it suddenly seems a lot less moe and a lot more creepy (let's be clear, it IS creepy). This could be a way of Anno looking at the rather stagnated traditions, putting a new spin on them, and making people realize how horrible said traditions actually are. Because according to Otaku:

Girl pleasures herself to thoughts of boy (or a girl for that matter)=cute.

Other way around=bleh.

Of course I'm not saying that we should say that "Aww, Shinji is so cute the way he faps next to Asuka!" (although I do think that EoE Shinji is a character who deserves at the very least pity) but rather that the idea of masturbating next to someone whilst they sleep is in no way cute, regardless of who is doing it to who.
Here lies Squigsquasher.
2013-2017.

Bagheera
Asuka's Bulldog
Asuka's Bulldog
User avatar
Posts: 18667
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:30 pm

View Original PostBryan wrote:Couldn't be more irrelevant since we are discussing the morality of it which the legality cares nothing for, but yes you are right.


It is relevant, actually. Illegal things are generally so for a reason, and understanding the basis of the law is illuminating here.

No, it didn't at the time and never should have. It did because of a supernatural event called instrumentality linking the minds of everyone in the world. I'm going to assume Shinji didn't see that coming.


It doesn't matter. We're talking about the act he committed and its effects, not some hypothetical act in some other setting. And in any event it doesn't matter, since how or even whether she found out is irrelevant -- none of that changes the underlying nature of the act and its motivations. Those are what's wrong, for reasons described at length upthread.

Again, I consider it wrong when the person is conscious because it's affecting their state of mind. When the person is unconscious they do not have any sense of what you're doing.


By that logic raping someone who's passed out due to alcohol, GHB, or some other intoxicant is A-OK, since it's not affecting their state of mind and they don't have any sense of what you're doing.

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:Another point which I think is quite interesting is something related to Shinji's character from a writing standpoint, rather than why he did what he did in terms of the story. Shinji is actually a genderflip of the traditional useless moeblob female character. He is reclusive, vulnerable, prone to becoming very upset easily (although for good reason), has inner strength that they cannot realize, falls over a lot, longs for praise from someone they look up to (although it's his father instead of a boyfriend, and he doesn't exactly love him) and clings to what little affection he can get. Now imagine if Asuka was a boy, called Akira, and Shinji was a girl, called Seiko. Put them in the hospital scene. Now, a cute young girl masturbating by the side of the bed of a boy she feels affection for whilst he sleeps would be considered "cute" by many (and probably wouldn't be considered as sexual assault), even if it is still rather...odd. However, when the genders are reversed, it suddenly seems a lot less moe and a lot more creepy (let's be clear, it IS creepy). This could be a way of Anno looking at the rather stagnated traditions, putting a new spin on them, and making people realize how horrible said traditions actually are. Because according to Otaku:

Girl pleasures herself to thoughts of boy (or a girl for that matter)=cute.

Other way around=bleh.


Leaving aside the fact that your depiction of events in the show is way off, it's funny you should bring this up. There's this fanfic by Adam Kadmon, called Witness. It is terribly okay in general, but the main thrust is that Shinji's a victim of recurring sexual assault throughout the fic. At one point he and Asuka are in that same hospital room, but this time he's the one in the bed and she's the one getting off.

It isn't cute.

This is not to say that gender roles do not come into play here, because of course they do. But a big part of that stems from the fact that sexual violence against women by men is a major issue in the world today, while the reverse is much less common (it does happen, and it's a different sort of problem since so few people take it seriously, but it's nowhere near as common as the reverse). Sometimes gender stereotypes are what they are for a reason.
Last edited by Bagheera on Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 36
Posts: 3254
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:34 pm

View Original PostSquigsquasher wrote:We can see this dark side later in the film, in an event which technically speaking occurs before the hospital scene. Shinji is completely traumatized after the events with Kaworu, and is pleading Asuka for some kind of comfort. Asuka is then, to put it mildly, extremely cruel to Shinji. Shinji completely snaps, and his other side appears, the side of him that is extremely prone to anger and violence. He completely loses control of himself and tries to strangle Asuka (which is potentially the reason she's in hospital anyway).


You have the timeline flubbed, Asuka was already in the hospital when Kaworu arrived. That fight never happened in the real world.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

Bryan
Adam
Age: 31
Posts: 94
Joined: Mar 01, 2013
Location: Orange County
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bryan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:52 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Illegal things are generally so for a reason


Our opinion greatly differs if you think it is generally so for a moral reason. That may be why laws in general were created, but they have been tainted so much by greed that controlling people seems to be a much more common reason nowadays.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It doesn't matter. We're talking about the act he committed and its effects, not some hypothetical act in some other setting. And in any event it doesn't matter, since how or even whether she found out is irrelevant -- none of that changes the underlying nature of the act and its motivations. Those are what's wrong, for reasons described at length upthread.


When effects are caused by a supernatural occurrence, I don't hold them against the person who had no way of knowing that occurrence would take place, that's just me. Holding his motivations against him is fine, those are unarguably immoral. His setting had no effect on anyone, except again thanks to the supernatural occurrence which I can't possibly see how you would hold against him.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:By that logic raping someone who's passed out due to alcohol, GHB, or some other intoxicant is A-OK, since it's not affecting their state of mind and they don't have any sense of what you're doing.

Lets say I got raped last night. They were so gentle I just didn't notice. I will never get an STD and I will never even know. Give me 1 logical reason I should even care. This example is ridiculous precisely because that's never what would happen. Someone would get an STD. Someone would get pregnant. Someone would NOTICE. All of those are effects that would happen. In this case, there were no effects. So yeah, I'm ok with rape that has no effect on anyone.

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 36
Posts: 3254
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:03 pm

View Original PostBryan wrote:So yeah, I'm ok with rape that has no effect on anyone.


No one is going to agree with this. It's probably in your best interest to stop now.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

Bryan
Adam
Age: 31
Posts: 94
Joined: Mar 01, 2013
Location: Orange County
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bryan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:12 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:No one is going to agree with this.


True, I'm not here to change anyone's mind, but I like listening to everyone's reasoning for why I might be wrong.

Chuckman
Chuckman
Chuckman
User avatar
Age: 38
Posts: 8902
Joined: Nov 11, 2011
Location: Chuckman
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Chuckman » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:13 pm

The strangulation scene is structured around the masturbation scene Shinji cajoles an unresponsive Asuka for help, but this time she expresses anger rather than simply remaining unresponsive, and he strangles her. (Again with the hands)

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 36
Posts: 3254
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:14 pm

If you can't understand just how dangerous that line of reasoning is I'm not sure there is anything I could say to make you understand.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

Bryan
Adam
Age: 31
Posts: 94
Joined: Mar 01, 2013
Location: Orange County
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bryan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:21 pm

View Original PostAnonymous_Evafan wrote:If you can't understand just how dangerous that line of reasoning is I'm not sure there is anything I could say to make you understand.


Well, that's what I'm here to find out.

Bagheera
Asuka's Bulldog
Asuka's Bulldog
User avatar
Posts: 18667
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:28 pm

View Original PostBryan wrote:True, I'm not here to change anyone's mind, but I like listening to everyone's reasoning for why I might be wrong.


You just said rape is okay if there are no consequences. Given that starting point it's really hard to see why we should even bother.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Tarnsman
Faustian Iodide
Faustian Iodide
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 1190
Joined: Apr 28, 2011
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Tarnsman » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:37 pm

View Original PostBryan wrote:Give me 1 logical reason I should even care.


Well first off, unless you're drugged you're just not going to sleep through getting raped. You'd have to be an impossibly deep sleeper. So logically your argument fails before we even get to why it's fifty kinds of retarded. Second off, rape is an assault. Whether or not you were aware of it happening, someone assaulted you. This is like someone stealing something of yours and not noticing it's gone. IT'S STILL FUCKING WRONG! Thirdly, rape is a really traumatic experience that really fucks with people who have it happen to them and there is no situation where that is justified and trying to come up with a scenario where it's "not a big deal" is disrespectful to the suffering of actual rape victims and you should be disgusted with yourself.
"You, sir, are the very heart of the rot that has corrupted humanity from the very beginning!" - tehprognoob
"I know that "chan" is Japanese for something like Mr. or something like that" - TSDA
"If I wanted porn without emotional damage, I'd watch Rebuild." - Azathoth
"because Evangelion and Pokemon are the same show when you really get down to it" - esselfortium
"i obviously have low standards, i liked Eva." - Seele00TextOnly

MugwumpHasNoLiver
Erotic Humiliation
Erotic Humiliation
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 3139
Joined: Jan 17, 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:41 pm

View Original PostBryan wrote:Lets say I got raped last night. They were so gentle I just didn't notice. I will never get an STD and I will never even know. Give me 1 logical reason I should even care.


Dude, if you can't understand why somebody would feel violated, used and unclean after being taken advantage of in their sleep, then you're either full of shit, intentionally contrarian or developmentally stunted. You don't need to drag logic into the equation, because there'd be a visceral response from the sub-mammalian brain. The answer to this question is self-evident to anybody with even a basic understanding of human emotions.
"Now, from Nature we obtain abundant information about ourselves, and precious little about others. About the woman you clasp in your arms, can you say with certainty that she does not feign pleasure? About the woman you mistreat, are you quite sure that from abuse she does not derive some obscure and lascivious satisfaction? Let us confine ourselves to simple evidence: through thoughtfulness, gentleness, concern for the feelings of others we saddle our own pleasure with restrictions, and make this sacrifice to obtain a doubtful result." -The Divine Marquis

"I agree Hans, but we have talked about those anal fisting analogies." -Werner Herzog

Bryan
Adam
Age: 31
Posts: 94
Joined: Mar 01, 2013
Location: Orange County
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bryan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:42 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:You just said rape is okay if there are no consequences. Given that starting point it's really hard to see why we should even bother.


Well, maybe you shouldn't. It's a pretty radical concept and on top of that I suspect that even if someone agreed, they would consider it too taboo to even say so. I'm happy to drop it if that's what everyone wants.

Tarnsman wrote:Well first off, unless you're drugged you're just not going to sleep through getting raped. You'd have to be an impossibly deep sleeper.

That's my point. that's exactly why you can't compare it to masturbating over someone's body.
Tarnsman wrote:Thirdly, rape is a really traumatic experience that really fucks with people who have it happen to them and there is no situation where that is justified and trying to come up with a scenario where it's "not a big deal" is disrespectful to the suffering of actual rape victims and you should be disgusted with yourself.

Again, that's why comparing rape to what happened is ridiculous. The only way it would be comparable is if you were completely unaware of the rape which we agree is pretty impossible. I feel deep sympathy for any rape victims out there. However, I don't see how an impossible hypothetical situation is disrespectful to one.
Last edited by Bryan on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bagheera
Asuka's Bulldog
Asuka's Bulldog
User avatar
Posts: 18667
Joined: Oct 15, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bagheera » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:52 pm

View Original PostBryan wrote:Well, maybe you shouldn't. It's a pretty radical concept and on top of that I suspect that even if someone agreed, they would consider it too taboo to even say so. I'm happy to drop it if that's what everyone wants.


No, it's not really radical. It's just the easily predictable result of not thinking things through. Lavinius's a kid, he's got an excuse. What's yours?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

Bryan
Adam
Age: 31
Posts: 94
Joined: Mar 01, 2013
Location: Orange County
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Bryan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:56 pm

View Original PostMugwumpHasNoLiver wrote:Dude, if you can't understand why somebody would feel violated, used and unclean after being taken advantage of in their sleep, then you're either full of shit, intentionally contrarian or developmentally stunted.


They wouldn't feel that way if they didn't know about it, which is the hypothetical posed.


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests