Blue Monday wrote:Oh you didn't~

This thread sucks by the way.

Why does the thread suck? I think that talking about the souls of the Evas and that stuff is interesting, but I think that this is much better. We are talking about the character that is a self insert of Anno. What could be more interesting about Eva than that? But yes, I think that we can make it better. I think we already know that what Shinji does is bad, Shinji knows that it's bad, but we should think "What was going on in his mind? Why did Asuka forgive him after being in Instrumentality with him?" And I think that we should use the draft.

I think Blue Monday said that for the lulz.

I think we need an explanation from the ADV commentary guys. Their wisdom could end this thread in a beautiful way.

@Blue Monday and Bagheera
/thread

riffraff11235 wrote:@Blue Monday and Bagheera
/thread

I tried to keep a straight face, but I just couldn't do it after reading the posts.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:Besides, isn't masturbation a sin in most religions?

Masturbation is not a sin in Christianity. The justification for thinking it is comes from the story of Onan, which is Old Testament anyway, and Onan's sin was not masturbation, but defying God. Onan was commanded to impregnate his sister in law after his brother died, and ejaculated on the ground instead. Some Christians identify this spilling of the seed on the ground with masturbation, but it's a stretch. The New Testament says nothing on the issue.

I doubt it's a sin in Islam and I can't see Buddhism or Eastern religions have a problem with it. The main issue with the Judeo-Christian current is that masturbation usually involves lustful thoughts, which can be sinful.

Lavinius wrote:It intrigues me that Shinji doing it in Asuka's room is viewed as somehow different than if he did it somewhere else. Why would this be? It would still be the same act, with the same thoughts and intentions. Is an act somehow right if no one but the actor ever knows? Why is there a difference between whether Asuka is comatose or not? She didn't give her consent? So do I have a patent on everyone's view of me? Can I condmn you for thinking something about me that I disagree with? How does this differ in any way from any other masturbation?

She's right there. Masturbating in someone's presence is a sexual act, and something that couples sometimes do for gratification. To do it without her consent is a sexual assault.

You also have to consider the totality of the act. He could leave, or better yet, cover her up and display some sympathy and concern for her. Everything about the way the scene is framed and presented emphasizes this, that Shinji has erected a total barrier between himself and concern for her.

He knows he's violating her, too. He's doing what he's doing because he's angry with her. It's part lust, part "I'll show you, bitch." She won't help him, won't wake up, and in his state he's incapable of sympathizing with her.

Masturbating over the idea of a person isn't on the same level. He's doing in a way that's specifically meant to harm her.

xanderkh wrote:And that completely describes Shinji's sexual attitude in a nutshell. He's so introverted and so engrossed in his own self-loathing, that it wouldn't surprise me if he had that view on masturbation, since he criticizes everything he does to prove to himself that he's so pathetic and disgusting.

This context leads to yet another interpretation of the scene. He's tried shaking her, etc. He's begging her specifically to wake up and be angry with him, to be herself.

Nudging her shoulder didn't work, begging and crying doesn't work, so he does the ultimate disgusting thing to rouse her anger, and it doesn't work. It's terribly sad and pathetic.

He's also engaging in a sort of ritual, a deliberate abandonment of any attempt to connect with her.

Wow, so I go to work and when I come back the discussion is about wether it's wrong to masturbate in front of someone... I guess the concept of "harm" is lost on some people.

But as I said, I think the important thing here is that Asuka represents the show as a whole: it's over. It's not alive anymore, and certainly can't love you back, but Shinji, as the audience, just keeps thinking about it and mentally masturbating over it.

...which is kinda what we're doing right now, isn't it? Neat.

Also, I'm getting the impression that some people here think that masturbation is wrong.

We were finally starting to move away from the "is it wrong?" derailment. Can we leave that tangent dead and buried?

The more productive discussion is about the interpretation of the scene, Shinji's character, symbolism, text and subtext, etc.

user-02 wrote:We were finally starting to move away from the "is it wrong?" derailment. Can we leave that tangent dead and buried?

The more productive discussion is about the interpretation of the scene, Shinji's character, symbolism, text and subtext, etc.

Yes, we know that it´s sexual assault. But the ineresting thing is "What the f... did Anno want to tell us?". And, does Asuka forgive Shinji? (Beach scene)

I think she understands, not necessarily forgives. As I mentioned earlier, the beach scene is keyed to the masturbation scene. At the beginning of the film, Shinji urges Asuka to be mean to him and cries on her; at the end, he cries on her and she shows him kindness.

He doesn't actually touch her once he begins masturbating; he straddles her on the beach which has a sexual connotation and is a reversal of her doing the same during Instrumentality. This reversal is a suggestion to us that she underwent a similar experience.

I want to let everyone know that I have seen so many posts in other threads by many of the people in this thread and I know that some of you are very intelligent people, smarter than me. However, in this thread all of you look like uncharacteristically close minded buffoons. Acting like there is an absolute separation between right and wrong is naive beyond words. Agamemno has an opinion that all of you disagree with. This is probably the first time he has ever stated it, since such a discussion is unlikely to come up anywhere else, so he's having trouble understanding just how taboo his opinion really is. Of course I didn't actually expect any of you to really have the decency to acknowledge his opinion, since it's such a taboo idea. But, that so many of you decided to reply to him to imply you think he's a sick fuck undeserving of an opinion at all is disappointing. What's even worse is none of you used anything but tautology to justify yourselves thinking you're too smart to consider such a radical idea. There were only 2 exceptions that. riffraff was the first, thinking she was conscious during the event, which he admitted was a mistake. The other was this post.

user-02 wrote:That's a false equivalency, though. It belies either a very prudish and restrictive view of masturbation as thought crime, or a very lenient view of sexual assault as fair game.

Masturbating to the thought of someone, and masturbating over someone without her consent, are not the same degree of wrong. No amount of rationalization will make it so. Sure, they both have an element in common (i.e., the objectification of Asuka). But they also have quite a bit not in common.

Here, the disagreement is finally stated in words rather than implication. Masturbation not being thought crime is the opinion that is being challenged.

Masturbating using someone's physical body is not ok. Asuka would never consent to such an act, therefore even if she doesn't know about it, it is something that could never be considered anything but absolutely wrong. That is what all of you would love so much to believe. That is your emotional response, there is nothing logical about it. The fact of the matter is it is not affecting Asuka is any way whatsoever. I feel the need to repeat that since it is the most paramount part of this argument and yet when Agamemno said it, the only response he received was

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:What the fucking hell. Do you have any idea what you just said?

I think he does considering he's absolutely right. It is not affecting Asuka. That's a fact, it just isn't. It is affecting her literally as much as it would if Shinji were wanking off to the thought of her half a planet away. And yet to consider it a thought crime is "very prudish and restrictive"? No, it isn't at all. The knowledge of the incident would certainly affect her harshly. That much is obvious. However, under circumstances that could possibly occur even in the world of Eva up to that point, Asuka would never know unless Shinji told her. So there, I agree with Agamemno. I've had a similar conversation about this stuff before based on a real life event and unsurprisingly nobody seemed to change their mind about anything in the slightest. So, I suggest we all drop it. I wrote this to say fuck you to anyone who thinks Agamemno is just an idiot for thinking that thought, I don't actually expect to change anyone's mind about anything.

user-02 wrote:We were finally starting to move away from the "is it wrong?" derailment. Can we leave that tangent dead and buried?

The more productive discussion is about the interpretation of the scene, Shinji's character, symbolism, text and subtext, etc.

Although I do agree that the original intent of the topic was different, I think it's a valid discussion that's happening here, and an entertaining one. Also, I dislike the one of "I'd rather not talk about that, so would you please also not?".

That being said, how is it different to masturbate to a person because she's in the room? What's the actual harm? Sure it's a dickish thing to do, but morally wrong? If it's a matter of personal space, is it also morally wrong to the mandatory nudity people are subjected to in the army? In fact, is it actually morally wrong to violate someone's personal space, rather than just a rude thing to do?

Felipe wrote:That being said, how is it different to masturbate to a person because she's in the room? What's the actual harm?

good question

Felipe wrote:In fact, is it actually morally wrong to violate someone's personal space, rather than just a rude thing to do?

I think so, yes. I think rudeness is just being morally wrong to a very small degree and personal space is a right I think people are entitled to since it affects your state of mind, however it doesn't affect your state of mind if you're unconscious.

Bryan wrote: I want to let everyone know that I have seen so many posts in other threads by many of the people in this thread and I know that some of you are very intelligent people, smarter than me. However, in this thread all of you look like uncharacteristically close minded buffoons. Acting like there is an absolute separation between right and wrong is naive beyond words.

And so on and so on with the omnislashing. I edited it down a little.

Bryan wrote:I think he does considering he's absolutely right. It is not affecting Asuka. That's a fact, it just isn't. It is affecting her literally as much as it would if Shinji were wanking off to the thought of her half a planet away.

You're absolutely right, it isn't physically affecting her in any way. That doesn't detract from how despicable the act is.

Bryan wrote:Asuka would never know unless Shinji told her.

Not telling her would be immoral. Telling her would have psychological damage. I guess he shouldn't have done it in the first place, huh?

Bryan wrote:I wrote this to say fuck you to anyone who thinks Lavinius is just an idiot for thinking that thought, I don't actually expect to change anyone's mind about anything.

Forum Rules wrote:If, for example, you “drop the F-bomb” on other members, that is not sensible use.

By the way, I don't think he's stupid; I just think he's very, very wrong about this one idea. I can't speak for the other members that have participated in this thread, but I would surmise that some are of the same opinion.

Shame this thread wasn't locked back on page one...

Bryan wrote:Acting like there is an absolute separation between right and wrong is naive beyond words.

I love it when newbies show up, dismiss what everyone is saying in the discussion, and then proceed to tell us the "facts", which we all somehow missed. Way to make a first impression, dude.

Here are the facts:

First, is this sexual assault? Well, that's actually not a matter of opinion -- the term has a legal definition, and while that definition varies from country to country and state to state Shinji's actions fit the bill in pretty much all of them. He entered an unconscious person's room, undressed her, and then performed a sex act while staring at her naked body without her consent. Regardless of whether or not you think it's wrong it is a crime.

Second, does it affect Asuka? Yes, it does. She was unconscious at the time, not dead, and as she noted during P3II she knew what he'd done. How do you think that made her feel? Well, we really don't need to ask, as Miyamura already told us. It disgusted her, made her feel like an object, made her feel used and violated. If you think that's okay you do, but the claim that this did not affect Asuka is flat-out wrong. The fact that she felt like that is proof that it did affect her.

Felipe wrote:That being said, how is it different to masturbate to a person because she's in the room? What's the actual harm? Sure it's a dickish thing to do, but morally wrong? If it's a matter of personal space, is it also morally wrong to the mandatory nudity people are subjected to in the army? In fact, is it actually morally wrong to violate someone's personal space, rather than just a rude thing to do?

Don't you think it's odd that you're asking if something you consider to be "rude" or "dickish" is actually wrong? If it isn't wrong on some level why would you consider it either of those things? If it's a neutral act, as you seem to assume, it shouldn't be either.

As to how it is different: let's turn that around. Do you see a difference between masturbating to a picture of your girlfriend and masturbating in her presence? I'm betting virtually everyone would feel very differently about the act depending on whether they're using a photo or an actual person for inspiration. Heck, let's take it a step further: let's say she's asleep, but you know she's okay with it -- she's explicitly told you it's alright, and that she thinks it's kind of hot. Do you see a difference between that and using a photo? How about that and committing the same act when you know she's not okay with it?

Get it? Context matters. The person you're using as the object of your fantasy matters. Her desires and her willingness to participate in your fantasy matter. These things matter because, like it or not, she is affected by your actions. And, at least in Asuka's case, she really doesn't want to be used as a side dish. That's why it's wrong.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Shame this thread wasn't locked back on page one...

Oh, I don't know - if you can ignore and skip all the prurient bits, there's some interesting discussion in there.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:Not telling her would be immoral. Telling her would have psychological damage. I guess he shouldn't have done it in the first place, huh?

I couldn't disagree more strongly. I don't see why there would be an obligation to tell somebody everything you did even if it involves them. It may involve her, but it does not affect her if she doesn't know. Telling her would be the only immoral thing he could do.

Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:By the way, I don't think he's stupid; I just think he's very, very wrong about this one idea. I can't speak for the other members that have participated in this thread, but I would surmise that some are of the same opinion.

I genuinely appreciate you saying that, but the condescending tone from so many posts in this thread was too off the charts for me to ignore. I can understand why though.

Bryan wrote:I couldn't disagree more strongly. I don't see why there would be an obligation to tell somebody everything you did even if it involves them. It may involve her, but it does not affect her if she doesn't know. Telling her would be the only immoral thing he could do.

Hmm. I have a philosophical disagreement with this. If he were merely thinking about her, then I wouldn't feel this way. Somehow, it's made worse by the fact that he's actually in the room with her, masturbating over her body while she's too out of it to do anything. He's not just violating the idea of her, but her physical body.

By doing it in the room with her, he's presenting it to her, whether she's conscious or not. Above, I pointed out that his masturbation could be read as a transgression to get her to become angry with him after shaking her and begging her to respond doesn't work.

It's the way he does it, not that he does it. He's saying "fuck you" to her in a very literal and visceral way. His act is not merely sexual, it's an expression of aggression and power, i.e. a rape.