So, where's Kaworu's core? Shinji apparently killed him by squeezing him so hard that his head popped off. No explosion, no flaming crosses. What happened here?

While many angels wear their cores on their sleeves, not all of them do. Gaghiel's core isn't seen until it opens its mouth. IIRC we don't see Sandalphon's. Ramiel's isn't seen until rebuild. Iruel doesn't seem to have a core at all, unless it later manifests one after taking over the simulation bodies. Leliel's isn't initially seen. Armisael is destroyed without ever showing us its core. Given this, I don't think we need to be all that disturbed that Lilith doesn't have her core front and center. In fact, I think we should assume she has one, in the expected spot, just under the marshmallow.

Kaworu (and Rei) are more interesting. Perhaps they have miniature cores as distinct organs within their bodies, however I doubt this. I think its more likely that human bodies can hold souls, regardless of weather that soul is special or not.

We saw in EoE that cores have a lovely habit of sucking things into them. What if Lilith's core was what sucked in Rei III, and the reason why it assumed her shape?

slothen wrote: Iruel doesn't seem to have a core at all.

When did Ireul actually show us its core? But I agree that it's possible that Lilith may have a hidden core, although I'm unsure whether it houses and S2, or just a Fruit of Knowledge. The FAR would not give any entity both an S2 Engine and a Fruit of Knowledge, as it would make that entity equal to the FAR themselves. So Lilith either has one or the other. It doesn't seem having an S2 is a prerequisite to do tricks, though, as Rei and Kaworu are never shown to have S2s, yet both can manifest extremely powerful AT Fields and do other tricks such as levitation. Then again, since the true form of the S2 is unknown, I wouldn't be surprised if they did have them in another form.

Shinoyami65 wrote:The FAR would not give any entity both an S2 Engine and a Fruit of Knowledge, as it would make that entity equal to the FAR themselves.

No, both Lilith and Adam clearly had both fruits. The Seeds only pass on one or the other, but they clearly need both to do their jobs. And, as we see with Yui, if a new Seed is created it likewise gains both fruits (or needs both before it can become one).

Bagheera wrote:No, both Lilith and Adam clearly had both fruits. The Seeds only pass on one or the other, but they clearly need both to do their jobs. And, as we see with Yui, if a new Seed is created it likewise gains both fruits (or needs both before it can become one).

I like the theory that appeared in an old thread about this question, and someone said that it could be described that the S2 and Fruit of Wisdom were both ends on a continuum, that their descendants (the Angels) had the capability to gain the aspects of the other side. Yui Ikari at the end of EoE says that mankind was "destined to build the Evas", and after 3I ends, Unit-01 drifts into space, possessing a Lilin soul and an S2 as proof mankind once existed.

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:Yui%27s_Agenda

Fuyutsuki: Humans create Evangelion in imitation of God... Is this our true goal?

Yui: Yes. Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever... together with the human soul that dwells within it.

Yui: Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives. It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...

Fuyutsuki: It will be the eternal proof that humankind has existed...

Compare what Yui says about mankind and Eva with Misato's line about the Angels. Essentially, what's being stated that the Lilin were able to acquire the abilities of the Angels, thus gaining power on the same level as the FAR. Now, this was not referring to all of the descendants of the FAR's descendants, Earth was unique in that it possessed both types of Seeds on one planet. This is why SEELE is so interested in the "divinity" of mankind, and seeks to carry out Instrumentality. (But could an Angel have its own version of 3I?)

I'm guessing that the S2 itself may not be physical in nature, and Seeds may have entirely different souls than the Lilin or Angels. The reason why Kaworu and Rei are able to project AT Fields most likely isn't linked to the Core or S2. Rei's body (and I'm assuming Kaworu's as well) were produced before the soul was inserted. Going by the Evas and Angels, the soul has to be present from the start for an S2 to be generated, so its why the Evas don't have them. Kaworu and Rei just had the souls installed later on, but can still have the powers of the Angels, just like the Evas (Berserk power explanation, maybe?).

Fuyutsuki: Humans create Evangelion in imitation of God... Is this our true goal?

Yui: Yes. Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever... together with the human soul that dwells within it.

Yui: Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives. It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...

Fuyutsuki: It will be the eternal proof that humankind has existed...

This is still my favorite concept of EOE, and maybe the grandest goal of any one person in the series. Awfully benevolent + ambitious for one person to subject themselves to that existence solely to live as proof that we existed.

Bagheera wrote:I still think it's a mistake to assume that Lilith has no core/S2 (one NGE2 route notwithstanding in the latter case). Whatever she has obviously isn't like that of the other god-entities we see in the show, but that doesn't change the fact that she existed unchanged for more than three billion years, nor that she initiated and (apparently) completed First Impact at that time, nor that she managed to pull off 3I during EoE. We can fanwank some of that away, yes, but the preponderance of evidence suggests that, even if she doesn't a core/S2, she can still replicate the effects of both.

I'm not seeing the need to suppose that Lilith must have had an S2 to do anything she did prior to EoE. For example, how do we know Lilith was unchanged for that long? Maybe it took her billions of years to become that pale mushy thing. For all we know she was a literal corpse before the Lilin nailed her to that cross and hooked her up to those funky tubes. Maybe she's actually been dead for billions of years (or in some kind of super low energy sleep mode, or powered minimally by geothermal heat, etc) and that's why she never protested to being messed with as she was.

Monk Ed wrote:I'm not seeing the need to suppose that Lilith must have had an S2 to do anything she did prior to EoE. For example, how do we know Lilith was unchanged for that long? Maybe it took her billions of years to become that pale mushy thing. For all we know she was a literal corpse before the Lilin nailed her to that cross and hooked her up to those funky tubes. Maybe she's actually been dead for billions of years (or in some kind of super low energy sleep mode, or powered minimally by geothermal heat, etc) and that's why she never protested to being messed with as she was.

That would be the afore-mentioned fanwank, yes. But my question to you is this: what reason to we have to believe that any of that is true? We know she has a soul. We know she arrived shortly after Adam. We know she's responsible for the existence of all life on Earth. We know she gave rise to Unit 01, which is pretty fucking badass and the shell for the need Seed. We see nothing -- nothing at all -- in the show to indicate she was dead, dying, decrepit, or anything else. She was passive, and that's about it.

And then Seele woke her up and said "hey, we want a reset!" and she said "okay!" and made it happen. The simplest explanation, upon seeing all of this, is that she was dormant, just like Adam. The simplest explanation is that she is in fact just like Adam, as we would expect a Seed to be. Unless one is trying to fanwank another alternative there's no reason to think any different.

Bagheera wrote:That would be the afore-mentioned fanwank, yes. But my question to you is this: what reason to we have to believe that any of that is true? We know she has a soul. We know she arrived shortly after Adam. We know she's responsible for the existence of all life on Earth. We know she gave rise to Unit 01, which is pretty fucking badass and the shell for the need Seed. We see nothing -- nothing at all -- in the show to indicate she was dead, dying, decrepit, or anything else. She was passive, and that's about it.

To be more clear, it's not like she has to be "dead" for this idea to work. All I'm suggesting is that we could explain her passivity by supposing that she ran out of energy, hence the alternatives I added in the parenthetical. Plus, I think it's a nice wellspring from which to draw other explanations, like why she's so, uh, "out of shape", why she looks like she's hooked up to life support, why the Lilin felt so free to experiment on her after what happened last time... etc. Obviously I can't show you a graph comparing our theories's measurements in Simplicity Units, but this is my take, and I think that appealing to "But we see no evidence" is entirely going about this the wrong way: We see no evidence for either of our positions except what we willfully interpret as such because we're just that stubborn. I see no evidence that she has a Fruit of Life, and I also think it contradicts a lot of what we already know and suppose about their purpose and how they work.

Monk Ed wrote:Obviously I can't show you a graph comparing our theories's measurements in Simplicity Units, so all I can say is: I disagree. I figured supposing that she's dead could fill in some holes -- the passivity, the way she's hooked up to stuff like a life support subject, her lack of complaint to being experimented on so thoroughly, her seemingly deformed state like a corpse bloating up in the water...

The problem is that Adam behaved in exactly the same fashion prior to the CE that precipitated 2I, and he clearly had an S2. Far from being holes, the fact that Lilith behaved in that fashion indicates that she and Adam are exactly the same.

And I find the idea that both Seeds contain both Fruits even more troublesome, and requiring of a lot more fanwanking.

If Adam doesn't have the Fruit of Knowledge it's kinda tough to explain Kaworu. If Lilith doesn't have the Fruit of Life it's kinda tough to explain her continued existence. If both have both fruits these problems go away. Also, Yui's goal is made clear -- she needs both fruits because she hopes to become a Seed, the end. Without both fruits she would not last forever -- you know, the way Lilith did.

Where is the need for fanwanking? I'm not seeing it.

Bagheera wrote:The problem is that Adam behaved in exactly the same fashion prior to the CE the precipitated 2I, and he clearly had an S2. Far from being holes, the fact that Lilith behaved in that fashion indicates that she and Adam are exactly the same.

Huh? Adam had been impaled by the Spear of Longinus.

If Adam doesn't have the Fruit of Knowledge it's kinda tough to explain Kaworu.

How so? Kaworu gained it when he gained his human body. My pet theory is that the reason why the contact experiment awakened Adam is because it was the forbidden union of Fruits -- the Wisdom one coming from the unknown donor.

Monk Ed wrote:Huh? Adam had been impaled by the Spear of Longinus.

Yes, and when the spear was removed Adam was studied and manipulated and abused just as Lilith was. This went on for weeks before the KE got around to doing their CE.

How so? Kaworu gained it when he gained his human body.

Irrelevant. Adam is not a Lilim, so should not have the Fruit of Knowledge no matter his body.

Bagheera wrote:Yes, and when the spear was removed Adam was studied and manipulated and abused just as Lilith was. This went on for weeks before the KE got around to doing their CE.

Why didn't Adam spring up the moment the Spear was removed? My point being, clearly whatever the Spear did to it required more than the Spear's removal to undo, because it had no reason to wait to do what it did unless it was unable until the KE accidentally kickstarted it again. Adam's and Lilith's situations in this regard aren't the same.

Don't misunderstand this for disagreement that it could have happened that way. Lilith, after doing her job, goes dormant, whereas the Spear forced Adam into an early dormancy to prevent the two from competing. That makes perfect sense. It's what I believed before I ever came up with the idea that maybe Lilith stopped moving because she ran out of energy. But I don't think it's evidence for the theory or against my own in any way -- i.e., "that Lilith behaved in that fashion" and therefore "that she and Adam are exactly the same."

Irrelevant. Adam is not a Lilim, so should not have the Fruit of Knowledge no matter his body.

Humans are born with their Fruits of Knowledge, or at least the potential to generate them. However Kaworu got his human body is how Kaworu got his Fruit of Knowledge too.

Monk Ed wrote:Why didn't Adam spring up the moment the Spear was removed?

That's rather the point. Adam was dormant, just like Lilith, so you can't pin her dormancy on the lack of an S2 any more than you can his. You can speculate that she shut down for different reasons, of course, but that runs into trouble when you remember that she apparently had no trouble producing a limitless amount of LCL, nor instantly regenerating her injuries when the Spear was removed from her body. How do you imagine either phenomenon occurred without a limitless power source?

Don't misunderstand this for disagreement that it could have happened that way. Lilith, after doing her job, goes dormant, whereas in Adam's case the Spear forced him into an early dormancy to prevent the two from competing. That makes perfect sense. It's what I believed before I ever came up with the idea that maybe Lilith stopped moving because she ran out of energy. But I don't think it's evidence for the theory or against my own in any way. Nonevidence of disproof is not evidence of proof. ...That came out weird...

But as you say, it makes perfect sense. So why would we assume Lilith ran out of energy? Why would we assume she doesn't have an S2 when such an assumption creates far more problems than it solves?

Seeds aren't Angels, and they aren't Lilim, either. There's no reason to believe they're limited to one fruit or the other. Indeed, I remain baffled as to how anyone could think either could carry out their primary mission without access to both.

Humans are born with their Fruits of Knowledge, or at least the potential to generate them. However Kaworu got his human body is how Kaworu got his Fruit of Knowledge too.

Fanwank of the highest order, I'm afraid. Lilim have the Fruit of Knowledge because they're Lilim, and it's pretty clearly a part of their souls (since they don't lose it when they tang). Kaworu wouldn't get it just because he has a Lilim body (see Reiquarium); he had to have it to begin with.

Bagheera wrote:That's rather the point. Adam was dormant, just like Lilith, so you can't pin her dormancy on the lack of an S2 any more than you can his.

I never did. (That is, I never said that Lilith must be in a death-like state. I only ever said that she could be.)

You can speculate that she shut down for different reasons, of course, but that runs into trouble when you remember that she apparently had no trouble producing a limitless amount of LCL, nor instantly regenerating her injuries when the Spear was removed from her body. How do you imagine either phenomenon occurred without a limitless power source?

One possibility is the tubes in the back of her head supplying her with what she needs. The other answer is one everyone loves to pull out: "Lilith is weird". I'm not fond of that answer, even if it just might be the right one: Reichu has proposed that Lilith's body might actually serve as a kind of portal to another dimension ("red space" based on an analysis of production sketches of the opening or something like that) whence LCL comes.

But as you say, it makes perfect sense. So why would we assume Lilith ran out of energy? Why would we assume she doesn't have an S2 when such an assumption creates far more problems than it solves?

Because "it makes perfect sense" in one area is not enough. It has to all fit together (and then is still competing with other theories that might be equally self-consistent). And I'm not yet convinced that your version of things does. For example:

Fanwank of the highest order, I'm afraid. Lilim have the Fruit of Knowledge because they're Lilim, and it's pretty clearly a part of their souls (since they don't lose it when they tang). Kaworu wouldn't get it just because he has a Lilim body (see Reiquarium); he had to have it to begin with.

If this were true, wouldn't the MP Evas have to have had both Fruits as well? Knowledge from their souls, Life from their S2s? Then why even bother with Unit 01? Why did Fuyutsuki single out Unit 01 as having both Fruits and therefore being like a god? And what significance, then, is there to Unit 01 being Lilith's sole clone (which Seele placed great importance on) if Adam and Lilith were otherwise so indistinguishable?

Monk Ed wrote:One possibility is the tubes in the back of her head supplying her with what she needs. The other answer is one everyone loves to pull out: "Lilith is weird". I'm not fond of that answer, even if it just might be the right one: Reichu has proposed that Lilith's body might actually serve as a kind of portal to another dimension ("red space" based on an analysis of production sketches of the opening or something like that) whence LCL comes.

Thats a pretty serious handwave, dude.

Again: far easier answer is that Lilith has S2 organ. Hell, if the scenario in NGE2 really bugs you there's even an out there as well: the organ she has is breaking down, and she needs a new one. There, done.

Because "it makes perfect sense" in one area is not enough. It has to all fit together (and then is still competing with other theories that might be equally self-consistent).

But that's what the whole "making perfect sense" thing means. I mean, c'mon! Your alternative here is "Lilith is weird." Doesn't that seem just a little thin as far as alternatives go?

And I'm not yet convinced that your version of things does. For example:

That's a problem no matter what. Those things appear to be Unit 01's equal by every measure, so the notion that Unit 01's special in any way is impossible to sustain. And it doesn't change with one's definition of the FoK, either: no matter how you define it there's no way Yui has it and the souls animating the MPEs don't. They're all humans, after all, and all Lilim to boot. The only explanation I can see is that the emphasis on Unit-01 over the MPEs is not a fruit issue -- being a vessel of Lilith is important for some other, never explained reason.

Could Lilith's core be in/under the eye in the centre of her forehead? The eye is conveniently concealed most of the time, until it sucks Eva-01 up, and Lilith dies after Eva-01 escapes from her head by bursting through one of her other eyes, similar to what happened in the battle with Leliel. So Lilith's core might be somewhere under her third eye, possibly within her head.

Additionally, it's not exactly a canon source, but in some of the 3I endings in NGE2, Lilith seems to suck up humanity's souls into her forehead, and afterwards talks about them all being inside the S2 Engine somehow. The S2 Engine is typically held within the core, so Lilith's core may be under her forehead as well.

Bagheera wrote:Thats a pretty serious handwave, dude.

+

But that's what the whole "making perfect sense" thing means. I mean, c'mon! Your alternative here is "Lilith is weird." Doesn't that seem just a little thin as far as alternatives go?

When all the parts are taken as a whole? No -- the same way you don't think "Lilith is weird" is a flimsy excuse/handwave for explaining how she could be an entire core or an entire S2 to explain how she could have one we never see. You felt perfectly justified falling back on that because you felt that the alternative was untenable for other reasons. I'm making the same point: It's because of what Lilith having an S2 entails for the rest of the theory that I find a simple "Lilith is weird" in that one spot an acceptable alternative. Just like you did for yours.

When I said "Lilith is weird", I was quoting you.

Again: far easier answer is that Lilith has S2 organ. Hell, if the scenario in NGE2 really bugs you there's even an out there as well: the organ she has is breaking down, and she needs a new one. There, done.

You've brought up this scenario unprompted twice now. I don't think I'm the one who's "really bugged" by it. (I kid; you're just addressing unspoken concerns others might have.)

That's a problem no matter what. Those things appear to be Unit 01's equal by every measure, so the notion that Unit 01's special in any way is impossible to sustain. And it doesn't change with one's definition of the FoK, either: no matter how you define it there's no way Yui has it and the souls animating the MPEs don't.

It does change. If the FoK is at the very least something that must be expressed through a body, then we could expect Eva-01 (as a clone of Lilith) to have it, unlike the others. Maybe the FoK (which we know almost nothing about) is a specific part of the brain that only Eva-01 among Evas has; we could also use that to explain why Eva-01 was as uniquely conscious as she was among Evas (whereas 00 and 02 did barely more than go berserk). That's just one possibility I thought up just now, to illustrate that we needn't be so hasty to shut off possibilities as to just what the FoK is or where it resides. We know, after all, barely anything about it beyond its name and that humans have it but Angels don't.

The only explanation I can see is that the emphasis on Unit-01 over the MPEs is not a fruit issue -- being a vessel of Lilith is important for some other, never explained reason.

The one reference to the Fruits in the entire series (and the only reference to the Fruit of Wisdom that I know of) is made in the first place as if to explain just what makes Eva-01 so special:

"The Fruit of Life possessed by Angels,
And the Fruit of Wisdom possessed by humans...
Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a god."

This line is next to pointless if what he just described is true of all 10 Evas out there, and ignoring its clear implication is to me a far bigger problem than supposing that something other than an S2 is powering Lilith.

I think you reason with far too much certainty about what the Fruit of Wisdom can or cannot be, when this line is the beginning and end of what we explicitly know about it. I think you're needlessly cutting off perfectly reasonable possibilities. For example, if the Fruit of Knowledge were something like a particular pattern of brain structure, that would make it both physical and ephemeral in such a way that it is both part of the body and something that can be mimicked and replicated by a soul that remembers a human shape and mind. (After all, the soul seems to be able to mimic the functionality of a complete brain without even having one.)

And there's good precedent for something like this too: It is, after all, the shape of a FoL that gives it its power (according to the CI).

Monk Ed wrote:When all the parts are taken as a whole? No -- the same way you don't think "Lilith is weird" is a flimsy excuse/handwave for explaining how she could be an entire core or an entire S2 to explain how she could have one we never see. You felt perfectly justified falling back on that because you felt that the alternative was untenable for other reasons. I'm making the same point: It's because of what Lilith having an S2 entails for the rest of the theory that I find a simple "Lilith is weird" in that one spot an acceptable alternative. Just like you did for yours.

And I'm still not clear on what problems Lilith having an S2 entails for the rest of the theory. In fact, given that you've said it makes perfect sense I don't even understand your objection to it.

You've brought up this scenario unprompted twice now. I don't think I'm the one who's "really bugged" by it. (I kid; you're just addressing unspoken concerns others might have.)

Possibly because that's the only issue associated with Lilith having an S2?

It does change. If the FoK is at the very least something that must be expressed through a body, then we could expect Eva-01 (as a clone of Lilith) to have it, unlike the others.

How would Eva 01 have it when it doesn't have a soul of its own? That makes no sense.

It's no mystery, Fuyutsuki even brings up the Fruits (for the only time in the entire series or movies) as if to explain just what makes Eva-01 so special:

"The Fruit of Life possessed by Angels,
And the Fruit of Wisdom possessed by humans...
Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a god."

Yes. The FoL via Zeruel, and the FoW via Yui.

Nobody then said:

"Uh, Fuyutsuki, they all have both of those, so why are you even bringing it up?"

That's true. But as I said, you're stuck no matter how you go here. If humans have the FoK and Lilith has the FoK it's tough to argue that Kaworu, who is just like humans, does not. And if he does it's tough to argue that Adam does not. And if you argue it's a matter of body composition it's tough to explain why the thing is called the Fruit of Knowledge.

But there's an easier approach: Unit 01 has the FoK because Yui is awakened, and the MPEs do not because their souls aren't. Seele presumably does not know how to awaken the soul within an Eva, since they would have done it if they could. Seele also seems to think the source of the cloned body is important for some reason, though they never explain why (but AFAICT that's a side issue for our purposes). Kaworu seems to think this as well, since he didn't go full tang with an MPE.

But no matter the theory presented the MPEs make it difficult.

This is also the one line that refers to the Fruit of Wisdom in the entire extended material as far as I know. Ignoring its clear implication is to me a far bigger problem than supposing that something other than an S2 is powering Lilith.

How am I ignoring its implications?

And yes, something other than an S2 could be powering Lilith, but why should we assume that when all the other angelic critters use the organ? Why assume something different in Lilith's case when she does the same sorts of things they do?

Your reasoning as to why it can be surmised that the Fruit of Knowledge is something of the soul misses other perfectly good explanations. For example, if the Fruit of Knowledge were something like a particular pattern of brain structure, that would make it both physical and ephemeral in such a way that it is both part of the body and something that can be mimicked and replicated by a soul that remembers a human shape and mind. (After all, the soul seems to be able to mimic the functionality of a complete brain without even having one.)

But Kaworu is human and so should have the same capability (same with all of the angels and Adam, for that matter). Why would his soul be different from that of other humans?

And there's good precedent for something like this too: It is, after all, the shape of a FoL that gives it its power (according to the CI).

That doesn't mean the explanation you've offered above makes sense (and of course that passage runs into the MPE problem, since it suggests MPEs have an existence equal to that of Adam -- something that doesn't seem to be borne out in the show).