Father/King

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment is scheduled to debut in Japan at some date to be announced.

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UrsusArctos
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Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:37 am

If Kaworu's anyone's clone, he's Dr. Katsuragi's.
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Postby slothen » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:09 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:If Kaworu's anyone's clone, he's Dr. Katsuragi's.


K4 !!!!! Katsuragi, Kaworu, Katsuragi, Kaji!

YEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS!

Where did Kaji fit in again?

:happypills:
God, Apparently you all have been discussing Q since November. Catching up on the discussion is harrowing.

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Postby K40s » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:41 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:If Kaworu's anyone's clone, he's Dr. Katsuragi's.
It creates a nice parallel between Shinji and Misato... Shinji's mother was the donor for Lillith's soul and Misato's father was the donor for Adam's soul... after all in NGE 2I the Katsuragi expedition did tried a contact experiment with Adam and Kaworu was born the day of 2I... you're probably right...

Then why would Kaworu call Gendo father? maybe it was one of Kaworu's "fabulous" slips meaning father in-law... :facepalm:

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:39 am

View Original PostK40s wrote:It creates a nice parallel between Shinji and Misato... Shinji's mother was the donor for Lillith's soul and Misato's father was the donor for Adam's soul... after all in NGE 2I the Katsuragi expedition did tried a contact experiment with Adam and Kaworu was born the day of 2I... you're probably right...


Remember, it's only a theory... One which has led to some pretty fearsome radioactive waste in the past.
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Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:52 pm

View Original Postslothen wrote:Where did Kaji fit in again?


There's a sort of eerie, almost subconscious resemblance between Kaji and Kaworu; a sort of easygoing coolness in their speech and mannerisms. When you recall that Misato initially left Kaji because she was terrified of how much he reminded her of her father, the pieces sort of fall together.
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Postby driftking18594 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:16 pm

I'm not sure whether to post this in here or the "Gendo in 3.0 and beyond" thread, but I noticed this in Simon Sebag Montefiore's "Monsters" book:
Jeremiah, Jewish prophet wrote:"He has gone out from his place, to make your lands a waste. Your cities will be ruins, without inhabitant.

This prophet was talking about Nebuchadnezzar II, the Babylonian king who shares his name with the Key of Nebuchadnezzar.

Just wanted to provide some food for thought.

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Postby Giji Shinka » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:59 pm

View Original Postdriftking18594 wrote:I'm not sure whether to post this in here or the "Gendo in 3.0 and beyond" thread, but I noticed this in Simon Sebag Montefiore's "Monsters" book:

This prophet was talking about Nebuchadnezzar II, the Babylonian king who shares his name with the Key of Nebuchadnezzar.

Just wanted to provide some food for thought.

Cool, now we have to try if this fits to Gendo somehow, other than that king part.............(I'm too lazy to read wikipedia....)
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Postby Kendrix » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:06 pm

View Original Postdriftking18594 wrote:I'm not sure whether to post this in here or the "Gendo in 3.0 and beyond" thread, but I noticed this in Simon Sebag Montefiore's "Monsters" book:

This prophet was talking about Nebuchadnezzar II, the Babylonian king who shares his name with the Key of Nebuchadnezzar.

Just wanted to provide some food for thought.


Can't help but thing of the empty ruined NERV HQ when I read that quote.

It is sure telling that Gendo just keeps using that office even though half of it is missing - that's the kind of person he is.
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...

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Postby driftking18594 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:39 am

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Can't help but thing of the empty ruined NERV HQ when I read that quote.

It is sure telling that Gendo just keeps using that office even though half of it is missing - that's the kind of person he is.


Pics? I can't help but imagine Gendo sitting behind half of his desk, with a massive gaping hole where half of his office used to be.

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:22 pm

View Original Postdriftking18594 wrote:Pics? I can't help but imagine Gendo sitting behind half of his desk, with a massive gaping hole where half of his office used to be.


The desk is still intact, but you see the ceiling/floor and the floors above and beneath, with metal parts sticking out - half the room is gone, the entire building stops there.
Too lazy to make a screenshot now.

That's why he seems to be in that greenish-blue light instead of the usual red/dark, with light comming in from the outside.

...As mentioned before, it fits Gendo so very well.
Someone who was too obsessed with getting a happy past back that he let the present fall to ruin.
Not just the room, the planet or NERV headquarters - Shinji and Rei, too.
And himself as well - the unzipped uniform, the beard, the "extreme confidence in his shatterproof glass", his messy hair, the rings under his eyes (well, not anymore - but the visor does the same trick)... Using the ruined office is just another part of that.
In a sense, he is someone who's given up. On humanity, on a solution without instrumentality, on himself, that's what instrumentality is, in a way, giving up.

The main difference between the Ikaris is, Shinji's brain just stops working beyond a certain level of stress, Gendo's doesn't.
Well, there's more to it, the entire contrast between an emotional/artistic and a rational/scientifically inclined, much colder person, but that's the basic gist of it that led to the Bardiel fiasco.

That is why Gendo could still formulate a plan and keep striving after a goal after Yui was gone, but that's the only reason he didn't just get himself a quiet place to wither away, as his son does here or in EoE.
But as far as that soft part that got brutally torn away, leaving only a certain cool resentment, is concerned, they're very similar.
So Gendo doesn't just... stop because he has something to strive for, but it's not enough for him not to fall in a state of disrepair.
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...

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Postby Merkaba » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:44 am

Some interesting things about King Nebuchadnezzar that I found that may or may not apply to Gendo/The Key/Eva at large:

"Nebuchadnezzar" means "O god, preserve/defend my firstborn son."

In Isaiah 14:12-15, Nebuchadnezzar is referred to in Hebrew as "Helel ben Shaḥar," or "the shining one, son of the morning." This is also a descriptor for Lucifer, who is interpreted as either Satan, Jesus or both.

"Destroyer of Nations" is another title the Bible gave Ol' Neby.

Nebuchadnezzar II goes insane and into exile for seven years, wandering about the wilderness, after being "Humbled by God."

Nebuchadnezzar destroys the city of Jerusalem and its temple.

And finally, Nebuchadnezzar was said to be the son of Marduk, the highest of Babylonian gods. What implications does this have for the Key in its relation to Adam(s)?

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Postby Giji Shinka » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:20 am

One of my theories is that key to Nebuchadnezzar might refer more towards to mankind or Shinji rather than Adam(s).
As in the quote you wrote: "O god, preserve/defend my firstborn son."
I was in 4.0 speculations thread posting for fun, that maybe Gendo is actually trying to save world, defend or make it a better place for everyone.(Or to be precise: for Shinji.)He is referred as KING of lilin by Kaworu, kings (usually) protect/defend their people. Plus, he said that he is the representative of mankind.
Or, as you wrote, Gendo and Nebuchadnezzar key might be referring to Satan/destroyer of all.

Also, wasn't it said somewhere that Gendo invented the Marduk institute or something like that?
If so, Marduk could be referring to Gendo, and Nebuchadnezzar to Shinji?

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:21 am

View Original PostGiji Shinka wrote:Also, wasn't it said somewhere that Gendo invented the Marduk institute or something like that?
If so, Marduk could be referring to Gendo, and Nebuchadnezzar to Shinji?


Do we actually know if the Marduk Institute exists in NME? Unlike in the original series, we never hear anything about how Eva pilots are selected, and most of the suggestion that Shinji's class is a group of potential Eva pilots is removed.

In the original TV series, Gendo didn't invent the Marduk Institute; it was a dummy corporation set up by SEELE. Gendo probably had a minimal role, if any, in its creation.
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Postby Giji Shinka » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:48 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Do we actually know if the Marduk Institute exists in NME? Unlike in the original series, we never hear anything about how Eva pilots are selected, and most of the suggestion that Shinji's class is a group of potential Eva pilots is removed.

In the original TV series, Gendo didn't invent the Marduk Institute; it was a dummy corporation set up by SEELE. Gendo probably had a minimal role, if any, in its creation.

Kaji says something about Marduk in 2.0 when he takes The key to Gendo, at first 15 minutes of the film........(I'm too lazy to check what he exactly said about it.....)

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Postby palerider1911 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:37 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Do we actually know if the Marduk Institute exists in NME? Unlike in the original series, we never hear anything about how Eva pilots are selected, and most of the suggestion that Shinji's class is a group of potential Eva pilots is removed.

In the original TV series, Gendo didn't invent the Marduk Institute; it was a dummy corporation set up by SEELE. Gendo probably had a minimal role, if any, in its creation.


Is that correct? How do you explain what the Classified Information has to say about it, then?

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Postby Kendrix » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:50 am

View Original PostMerkaba wrote:In Isaiah 14:12-15, Nebuchadnezzar is referred to in Hebrew as "Helel ben Shaḥar," or "the shining one, son of the morning." This is also a descriptor for Lucifer, who is interpreted as either Satan, Jesus or both.


I think "Helel" is literally "morning star" (=Lucifer.)



....As for any "Marduk" referenced in Rebuild, there was no mention of a Marduk-Institute, but of a "Marduk-Project" in Bethany Base.
Maybe whatever the plug like structure was supposed to do (Isn't the Wunder-bridge also similar to giant entry plug? In any case, mechanizing the third angel etc may have resulted in the Nemesis series/other mechano angels. )
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...

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Postby mirakodus » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:05 am

In case you don't know it's very common in Japan to call someone's parents directly as father or mother. Example: You are in your friends house and talk with his father you can refer to him as otosan. You don't have to add Shinji no otosan. So for me it was quite obvious that Kaworu refers to Gendo as Shinji father. It's the role he have toward Shinji, who Kaworu is most concern about.
Well, nothing is obvious in Evangelion ;p
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