Father/King

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final installment is scheduled to debut in Japan on January 23, 2021.

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[SPOILERS] Father/King

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Postby qu4d » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:28 pm

Kaworu called Gendo in 2.22 Father... this seemed to me to be somewhat of a close/near thing, like he knows him and stuff.

Now in 3.0 he calls him King of the Lilin, nothing of a son/father-relationship at all. To me he seemed to be very distant from him.

After watching 3.0 and looking back to the 2nd movie... any thoughts about the father quote?

Just curious.

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Postby Na7e » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:34 pm

Gendo=King Laius

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:42 pm

The "king" part probably just referring to Gendo's role in the prophecy. That's presumably how the scrolls refer to him.

It's a different situation, in 2.0, Kaworu was speaking directly to Gendo, in 3.0, speaking about him with him not present (while noticing that he's been had, no less)

It's no wonder that you'd adress someone in a "Ah, nice to meet you, so you're my genetic donor!"-kind of situation in another way than in a "Man, that bastard tricked us."-situation. I love the mix of shock, resentmet and even grudging admiration/respect in Kaworu's voice there.
He knows is means they're screwed, but damn, he gotta respect that sheming bastard.

Also probably relevant: Nebukadnezzar was a king.


One drastic thing is, he doesn't even give Shinji and Kaworu orders. He sends them down there, probably fully knowing that they plan to thwart his plans... like he's sure that whatever they do down there, it can't possibly screw up his plans. They're in the palm of his hand. And only Kaworu and Mari were even aware of it.

Also... faithful widower of 25 years. Wow. Yeah, he definitively should have gotten a life somewhere along the way, but still.
Last edited by Kendrix on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...

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Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:44 pm

As a vaguely homosexual non-human, Kaworu was no doubt calling Gendo "father" with a bit of catty irony. As in "Hey, I'm gonna boink your son soon. See you at Thanksgiving." The unexpected fourteen years of isolation that followed took out some of his bite.
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Postby lclbloodtransfusion » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:34 pm

Probably irrelevant (and already mentioned somewhere), but I thought of this when Mari called Asuka 'Princess.'

If Gendo is King, Shinji is the Prince (and Rei somewhere between Princess and Queen?), which has its own implications about Mari's term of endearment.

While I don't think it's a big deal, I do think it's at least big enough that it wouldn't have been TOTALLY coincidental (i.e. Anno must have noticed the connection?). I think the natural assumption when someone calls someone Princess the way Mari did to Asuka is that they're calling the person bratty/lazy. But I wonder if it also/instead could be a reference to feelings Asuka had or has for Shinji, i.e. Shinji is the prince and Mari teases Asuka about wanting to be with him, thus making her Princess.
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Postby Grub » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:29 am

It's a term of endearment from Mari. I'm sure they've had a lot of heart-to-hearts and crying together. You know, from the world ending. So they're really close friends now, and I'll bet Asuka's been telling her that even though Shinji did what he did, she really likes him and misses him and all kinds of complex emotional things. And anyway, it's clear to Mari that Asuka's got issues and a lot of them revolve around what Shinji's going to do.

So she tells him to man up and help her out, because Mari will be otherwise engaged with... whatever else she'll be doing. Best friends split up. So if Shinji doesn't change, Asuka will probably go completely insane and end up getting killed in some horrific fashion (again.)

It'd be cool to see some positive character development for once. But Anno is Anno.
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Postby UBERGEEKZILLA » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:42 am

hmmmm.

gendo is king

Shinji is prince

Asuka is princess

interesting theory....its funny really a lot of people were saying that the S/A thing was over because she got over him but she clearly didnt. its obvious when you watch the full subbed camrip

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Re: [SPOILERS] Father/King

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Postby Merior » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:37 am

View Original Postqu4d wrote:Kaworu called Gendo in 2.22 Father... this seemed to me to be somewhat of a close/near thing, like he knows him and stuff.

Now in 3.0 he calls him King of the Lilin, nothing of a son/father-relationship at all. To me he seemed to be very distant from him.

After watching 3.0 and looking back to the 2nd movie... any thoughts about the father quote?

Just curious.

I don't think you should take everything Kaworu says seriously...
He also tells Shinji that they are going to see each other again (right before dying). I don't even want to think about the implications that line could have. Therefore i pretend he said it for the sake of saying it. Just like the Father line.

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Re: [SPOILERS] Father/King

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Postby Grub » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:44 am

View Original PostMerior wrote:I don't think you should take everything Kaworu says seriously...
He also tells Shinji that they are going to see each other again (right before dying). I don't even want to think about the implications that line could have. Therefore i pretend he said it for the sake of saying it. Just like the Father line.


pretty obvious what he means. all those skulls. all those eva-shaped bloodstains. poor Shinji.
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Postby bladerj » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:30 am

Right before or after, purple dress man talks to gendo about Shinji not being aware of the sacrifice gendo has made include his soul, we see a shot to the box containing the nebuzz-sth key , seems to me that he grafted or will graft it, into this hand thus sacrificing his soul to it. and nebuz is a king so maybe kaworu noticed that and is adressing gendo as such.

about mari calling Asuka princess , as much as she complain about Shinji being pampered she was too, look all her belongings in 2.0, that fact Misato acomodates her schedule to Asuka whim. Refiting her eva (they could just stole a new one, like they did for mari).

i dont think it is a reference from Shinji status.
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Postby alexyoshi » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:13 am

View Original Postlclbloodtransfusion wrote:Probably irrelevant (and already mentioned somewhere), but I thought of this when Mari called Asuka 'Princess.'

If Gendo is King, Shinji is the Prince (and Rei somewhere between Princess and Queen?), which has its own implications about Mari's term of endearment.

While I don't think it's a big deal, I do think it's at least big enough that it wouldn't have been TOTALLY coincidental (i.e. Anno must have noticed the connection?). I think the natural assumption when someone calls someone Princess the way Mari did to Asuka is that they're calling the person bratty/lazy. But I wonder if it also/instead could be a reference to feelings Asuka had or has for Shinji, i.e. Shinji is the prince and Mari teases Asuka about wanting to be with him, thus making her Princess.


Very interesting theory!

Although I don't understand why Kaworu says "King of Lillin, Shinji-Kun's Father"

Why doesn't he simply say "King of Lillin, Ikari Gendo" ?

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Postby pwhodges » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:03 am

Perhaps because he knows that in the end, Shinji is the one that matters.
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Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:56 am

View Original Postlclbloodtransfusion wrote:Probably irrelevant (and already mentioned somewhere), but I thought of this when Mari called Asuka 'Princess.'

If Gendo is King, Shinji is the Prince (and Rei somewhere between Princess and Queen?), which has its own implications about Mari's term of endearment.

While I don't think it's a big deal, I do think it's at least big enough that it wouldn't have been TOTALLY coincidental (i.e. Anno must have noticed the connection?). I think the natural assumption when someone calls someone Princess the way Mari did to Asuka is that they're calling the person bratty/lazy. But I wonder if it also/instead could be a reference to feelings Asuka had or has for Shinji, i.e. Shinji is the prince and Mari teases Asuka about wanting to be with him, thus making her Princess.


Since the "King" title has a hefty "of Lilin" stuck on the end of it, I would guess all the others would too. So since Rei isn't really a Lilin, I don't think she has a title (poor her). Neither does Kaworu, probably. If anyone was "Queen of Lilin", I would say it's probably Yui, her being Gendo's wife and all.
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Postby lclbloodtransfusion » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:25 am

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Since the "King" title has a hefty "of Lilin" stuck on the end of it, I would guess all the others would too. So since Rei isn't really a Lilin, I don't think she has a title (poor her). Neither does Kaworu, probably. If anyone was "Queen of Lilin", I would say it's probably Yui, her being Gendo's wife and all.


Hm. That definitely makes sense. However, I'm thinking of it differently now.

Hypothetically if there were a queen, maybe it's not a matter of who Gendo's queen would be. Maybe Gendo is only a King because of who is Queen?

Lillith, being the progenitor of the Lillin, would be the true "Queen" of Lillin. While Yui never actually contained Lillith's soul (did she?), her clone Rei was meant to serve as the link between Gendo and Lillith. Rei, bearing Lilith's soul, simultaneously represents both the Queen of Lillin and Gendo Ikari's wife, unifying the two. If anything, the real Queen is Lillith herself, and Gendo's royal "status" seems more likely a result of that connection.

This creates a parallel with Kaworu and Gendo, as if it's the case, it makes Kaworu, being the bearer of Adam's soul, the King of Adam-based life. And, adorably, he wants Shinji, the prince of Lillin, to be his queen :tongue:
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Postby slothen » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:59 pm

I don't think there's any connection between "princess" and "King" here.
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Postby Kendrix » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:06 pm

One thing about "King of the Lillin", is that when you go by the original meaning of the latter word (ie, demons) you get interesting implications.


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Shinji: ...Why me... *sob*
Alas poor Kaworu! I knew him well...

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Postby K40s » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:31 pm

I think the connection between Kaworu and Gendo (K calling G father) is based on him being a clone of G with Adam's soul, the same as Rei being Yui's clone with Lillith's soul.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:04 am

View Original PostK40s wrote:I think the connection between Kaworu and Gendo (K calling G father) is based on him being a clone of G with Adam's soul, the same as Rei being Yui's clone with Lillith's soul.


Kaworu looks nothing like Gendo or Shinji, and Shinji never shows any signs of associating Kaworu with Gendo in any way, shape or form.

I was worried this thread might follow the a downward Akira-esque spiral... Let's just be clear: Kaworu's clone donor is just as ambiguous as in the TV series, perhaps even more so.
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Postby K40s » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:15 pm

View Original PostShinoyami65 wrote:Kaworu's clone donor is just as ambiguous as in the TV series, perhaps even more so.
I disagree, in NGE we never get Kaworu calling anyone "Father". Also the case of Rei in NGE, I don't recall them making the connection to Yui as clear as in NME, and Yui being Gendo's wife, and Rei being the same as Kaworu (a Seed of life's soul inside a cloned Lillin body) is more likely that Gendo is Kaworu's donor.

At least there are more things pointing in this direction in NME. It's way more ambiguous in NGE.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:24 am

View Original PostK40s wrote:I disagree, in NGE we never get Kaworu calling anyone "Father". Also the case of Rei in NGE, I don't recall them making the connection to Yui as clear as in NME, and Yui being Gendo's wife, and Rei being the same as Kaworu (a Seed of life's soul inside a cloned Lillin body) is more likely that Gendo is Kaworu's donor.

At least there are more things pointing in this direction in NME. It's way more ambiguous in NGE.


Yes, but Gendo and Kaworu are nothing alike. Whereas Rei resembles Yui but with different hair and eyes, Kaworu looks nothing like Gendo or Shinji. Which totally defeats the idea of Kaworu being a clone of Gendo, since clones are meant to be identical to the original. Gendo and Kaworu have completely different skull/face shapes, different builds and different voices. Rei and Yui are practically identical besides hair colour and eye colour, and they even have the same voice (same voice actor). There is no evidence of Kaworu being a physical clone of Gendo.
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