So coming back to explore the gap they created and that supposedly didn't need to be explored in the first place (since I'm sure Rebuild is supposed to stand on its own without supplemental material) is a creative effort? I don't see it that way.

....

A.T. Fish wrote:...if they end up coming back to explain whatever happened in those 14 years (considering they don't do it in 4.0 already) it will qualify as a cash-in, in my eyes at least.

You should get those eyes checked. That definition of a cash-in is a tad nebulous. The marriage of art and commerce is a deeply complex thing where both motives influence and mutate each other like the membrane fusion of a sperm and egg. You can argue that the entirety of Rebuild is a cash-in because the first film re-used so much old material in a fairly lazy way, but to do that, you'd need to look past Anno's comments that he's making Eva as he'd always intended, which could be bullshit for all you know. (I'd argue he started the films as a cash-in and became more and more interested the deeper he got.) If the studio thinks it can make money off it, that's merely fertilization. If the studio hires a group of weary, cynical and uninterested writers and animators to hash something out over lunch, it's a cash-in. If there are artists eager to work on the project and they put in genuine effort and try to create something great, then it cannot possibly be a cash-in. Plain and simple. It wouldn't be the least bit difficult to create something set in the time skip complete with its own arcs, motives and aesthetics completely independent of the Shinji-centric Rebuild plot. A separate piece of art with its own goals isn't parasitic nonsense simply because it exists within the same universe as a related piece of art.

A. T. Fish wrote:You seem to imply that cash-ins can't explore new material at the risk of losing their exploitative nature

If something is exploring new material, how can it possibly exploit?

A. T. Fish wrote:So coming back to explore the gap they created and that supposedly didn't need to be explored in the first place (since I'm sure Rebuild is supposed to stand on its own without supplemental material) is a creative effort?

The proper way to do something like this, would be to make it stand alone, without Rebuild. When you look at Q in the context of the four Rebuild films, the time skip is a marvellous device that fills the new film with a sense of underlying dread, confusion and a plethora of ironic narrative reversals. In terms of the story the films are trying to tell, its artistic integrity is sound, regardless of whether or not Anno had the idea in the back of his mind that he could probably do something else with that blank space later. If the proposed new story only exists to fill in holes in what is supposed to be a complete narrative, then the premise is of questionable intent. However, merely existing as a spin-off of sorts is not enough to render the premise artistically inert.

Seele00TextOnly wrote:So because something wasn't shown, then the supposition becomes that it didn't need to be explored in the first place? How do you figure that it 'didn't need to' when so many fans are clamoring for and thirsty for something depicting this in between period?

Well, I'm assuming whatever they leave out of the series of movies they are making are things they deem unnecessary (regardless of how the fans feel), otherwise they wouldn't leave it out, but we don't even know what 4.0 will be like yet, maybe they go back to explore the timeskip maybe they don't, they'll do what they judge necessary to conclude the series in a satisfying manner.

Seele00TextOnly wrote:Anno watched Eva again and found it 'interesting' and no doubt he decided it would be interesting to explore something that wasn't shown (things happening this way instead of the other way) and voila.

Yeah, he is retelling his story, but coming back to explore the timeskip (considering it isn't explored in 4.0 anyway) doesn't qualify as that, it would be more of a "filling in the gap" kind of thing.

Seele00TextOnly wrote:Besides whether something needs to be shown or not is hardly relevant to whether or not it would be fun or interesting to see. If you don't want to watch or read about the in-between time then don't; no one is going to force you.

I'd certainly watch it if it happened and I'm well aware it would not be mandatory, but still, considering the lack of necessity I'd be inclined to say they were being clever about making their money.

Seele00TextOnly wrote:Also I'm not sure you understand the meaning of 'creative'.

Yeah I do, and yes exploring the gap they left would demand creation of new material, a new story of sorts (albeit one limited to the confines of the complete work) and such, but I don't see how exploring that is a creative decision given there wouldn't be much point in it.

MugwumpHasNoLiver wrote:If something is exploring new material, how can it possibly exploit?

It's not exploiting the material, it's exploiting the consumer of the material.

A.T. Fish wrote:Well, I'm assuming whatever they leave out of the series of movies they are making are things they deem unnecessary (regardless of how the fans feel), otherwise they wouldn't leave it out, but we don't even know what 4.0 will be like yet, maybe they go back to explore the timeskip maybe they don't, they'll do what they judge necessary to conclude the series in a satisfying manner.

Let's look at it like this: Rebuild is Shinji's story. All of the official Rebuild movies will only tell the things relevant to his experiences. But that doesn't mean that there aren't more stories to tell in the larger world that just aren't being told now.

Yeah I do, and yes exploring the gap they left would demand creation of new material, a new story of sorts (albeit one limited to the confines of the complete work) and such, but I don't see how exploring that is a creative decision given there wouldn't be much point in it.

It could be a story with a new theme. Rebuild is built around three main concepts so far: Isolation, stagnation, and repetition. That's obvious from the titles of the movies and one of these things is present in every frame of the show so far. But presumably it will be an uplifting story that says that life is worth living. A new story could build that up more by showing someone else's struggle against the crumbling world around them.

I would love to explore the events that occurred during the those 14 years.

An OVA series could go in-depth with the establishment of WILLE, most likely by Misato and Ritsuko, the backgrounds of Asuka and Mari (not to mention the former's recovery) and the bridge bunnies, the missing Evangelions and its pilots (possibly Rei's "sisters" or clones), as well as the crazy shit that seemed to happen off-screen. Evangelion 3.0 has a lot of crazy visuals that hinted something else happening during the 3rd impact or maybe even the event itself was temporarily halted and something else happened (perhaps continuation?) that left the Earth in the state it's currently in.

Really, you could do a lot.

Yeah, I'll put an end to this discussion (at least on my end) with an apology, I had a different definition of what a cash-in is than the rest of you, I was focusing on the malicious intent that would surround the making of such a series (which I do believe would most likely be a needless and exploitative work) and I also don't see a lot of creativity in coming back to the same material over and over, even if it's to add new things to it, especially considering the original is a self sufficient product. Regardless of my opinion though, there isn't really much point in this discussion since we don't have the entirety of Rebuild yet, we don't even know if the 14 lost years will be explored in the next film in some form, and if it is, to what extent, so we can't really tell if there would be any pay off to such an endeavor.

Oh Gott, what have I done?! I just wanted to the stuff that MugwumpHasNoLiver said. The studio spending minimum effort to make money out of a bad-written, bad-directed new NGE-Series regarding the 14-years time gap.

Yeah, everybody wanted to see Terminator's future war played out... before Terminator: Salvation, anyway. And a billion other examples I could name. How many times are fans going to demand these side stories with "so much potential!" before we get a clue?

Shock, confusion, disorientation -- it's the point of Q, at least in part. That shouldn't diluted just so we can scratch an itch, cross a few T's, dot some I's. Ten years from now, new fans shouldn't be able to cop out of this glorious gut bunch we're experiencing by seeing the in-between movie first (and you know they will). Does a part of me want to see Rebuild of Evangelion 2 1/2? Am I curious as Hell about the time skip? You bet. But should that impulse be indulged?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

I hear those who forget history are doomed to repeat it...

Warren Peace wrote:Yeah, everybody wanted to see Terminator's future war played out... before Terminator: Salvation, anyway. And a billion other examples I could name. How many times are fans going to demand these side stories with "so much potential!" before we get a clue?

Well, the problem is it's impossible to know how these things are going to turn out, particularly as it's impossible to replicate the exact same conditions that led to the original work's creation. At the very least (if such as thing was to occur, COMPLETELY hypothetically) we might get Anno directing, but then people would save he wasn't as good as he was years ago, and if we got another director people would say he wasn't as good as Anno. So it's a very complicated bundle, and if they just put in a 1 and 1/2 hour flashback to clear up the mess, I think things would be much better for everyone.

Blargh, can I still reply to this? I'm going to do so anyways:

It really disappoints me how Anno seems to have dropped the ball with 3.0. People can call him "le epic trolle!!!!" all they want, but I'm super disappointed in the set up for the direction he is taking with 3.0. There are so many dropped plot points it's not even funny. As I mentioned before, a movie series like Rebuild has incredibly limited time, and Anno chose to spend it on plot points that seem to be ultimately pointless. Is this some statement about how anime fans overanalyze things? I feel like my chain has been jerked. At least I don't spend money to watch this.

chaosakita wrote:I'm super disappointed in the set up for the direction he is taking with 3.0. There are so many dropped plot points it's not even funny.

Hmmmm....I didn't think like that. Main plot points like Nebu key, Gendo's plans, human instrumentality ect. are still there. The only thing that Anno "dropped" was previous interactions and relationships between certain characters. (Well, that happens sometimes when 14 years fly)
Plus, i'm almost 100% sure we get our main answers. Everything is now even more ambiguous than it was in NGE (And rebuilt is meant to be a bit more "casual" than previously, so i wouldn't worry about that)

chaosakita wrote:As I mentioned before, a movie series like Rebuild has incredibly limited time, and Anno chose to spend it on plot points that seem to be ultimately pointless.

The main focus in this film was obviously Shinji's and Kaworu's relationship. If Anno had shown more of what Wille, Gendo had done meanwhile, it would have broken the narrative focus and the bleak atmosphere which was intentional. And if you look deeper, many things aren't pointless.

chaosakita wrote: Is this some statement about how anime fans overanalyze things?

Possibly.

Also:
[url]http://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Evangelion_3.33_FAQ[/url]

[url]http://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:Third_Impact_%28NTE%29[/url]

I suggest that you read these if you haven't yet.

chaosakita wrote:the direction he is taking with 3.0. There are so many dropped plot points it's not even funny.

And amongst everything that was dropped are pretty much all the bits of 2.0 that caused the explosion of hate for that particular movie. So, in the light of Q, how do we now feel about the previous installment?

Mr. Tines wrote:And amongst everything that was dropped are pretty much all the bits of 2.0 that caused the explosion of hate for that particular movie. So, in the light of Q, how do we now feel about the previous installment?

I personally liked 2.0, so no, I am not happy about the changes.

And I feel like even points I liked about 1.0 were overwritten.

I also feel that 2.0 was very well-received, so I don't feel that the changes in 3.0 were in response to fan criticism.

I think 3.0 is Anno having fun in lieu of making a good movie, because anything he writes will be gobbled up by fans. Obviously 2.0 had its faults, but I think it's worse to backtrack on such a large part of the story and have it go nowhere. Especially when the running time for the series is about the same as a 13-episode anime, I think time is of the utmost importance.

Anyways, even if 2.0-haters like this movie, I think we're just left with a movie series that doesn't totally appeal to anyone.

This topic remembers me another one : Does 3.0 defeat the purpose of Rebuild in a way?
Psychodrake ans I made a comment about what could be the purpose of 2.0(and 1.0, and even NGE) in front of 3.0 :

ElMariachi wrote:

Psychodrake wrote:I think what 3.0 lost was the grounded nature of the series. NGE was a lot more terrifying in that it was happening on an Earth that still resembled something like our own, where 3.0 has drawn away from that, tearing the world into something unrecognizable. This makes the events a lot less hard-hitting in a way, but also allows them to do more crazy stuff.

Funnily enough, 2.0 for me was the closest to home. The aquarium, the running sequence tearing up all of the train lines, the Yamashita sequence with the solar panels opening up, the whole Zeruel sequence with refugee's making for safety are all very hard hitting scenes. 3.0's hardest hitting scenes were scenes LINKED to story-based events, such as seeing Lilith and the giant Rei head, seeing the giant red Eva's littering the city and seeing the aftermaths of 3I. In that respect, the story is gaining a more focussed plot, akin to more popular series, but retains the same feeling of the "Horror of the unknown" and desperation that Eva does so well.

But Earth and humanity is no more in 3.0, so it's only right to take it that way. NGE ended with humanities destruction, where as this trails on afterwards, showing the struggle to survive.

And in my opinion its precisely the "grounded" nature of 1.0 and 2.0(and NGE on a meta-level) that makes 3.0 so shocking and terrifying : we know Tokyo-3 since a long time, the two previous movies had a lot of little scenes of the everyday life : the pilots at school, their life in Misato's apartment, the solar panels moving in the morning, the people going to school or to their works or tending the laundry in their balconies, the occasional guy in his NERV uniform hanging in a train station and chatting with friends after a day of hard work, or in 1.0 during Operation Yashima, all the people gathered in the hills to see the battle against Ramiel, placing all their hopes in Shinji's shot with the Position Canon... all of this helped us to get attached to this city and its inhabitants, to hope that this time, unlike NGE, the city will survive and everyone will be spared the fate of mass tangification(even if they had the possibility to come back)...

And then 3.0 come, and we see the aftermath of 3I : not only is the city in ruins and abandoned, but something happened that mutated the landscape into a state that Shinji's wouldn't imagine even in his worst nightmares, its like he landed in another planet or dimension, or even fucking Hell, but the ruins are here to remind him that no, this supernatural place was Tokyo-3, and now its completely dead, they failed to protect it and worst, Shinji is told that he is the one who did that, that not only he failed to protect everyone, but that he unleashed on them the unspeakable horrors that turned the landscape into what it is now and probably killed most of mankind, like he opened the gates of Hell itself on the city and the world...

No wonder the guy is a psychotic mess after that.

To reuse an example I put on another thread, it's like in those post-apocalyptic movies or video games that are so popular now where you get a glimpse at the beginning of the world before everything goes to hell, it gives you a point of reference of how it was "before", but you don't have time to get attached to said "before", but here in Rebuild the "glimpse" lasted for half of the quadrilogy, you don't have any idea that a post-apocalyptic setting was on its way and that the third movie will be a prologue for said setting.

That's why, for me, Q must be judged on light of what will be in Final, the two last movies are complementary.

I'd argue the point of 2.0 was to give Shinji a context of what he has to fight for in the following films. 2.0 got so much shit for two-thirds of the film being "Shinji & Pals go to the aquarium, eat food & act goofy". Then in the last act things got bad & Shinji temporarily - through childish anger - turned his back on the world & placed all his hopes & dreams for happiness on one person, Rei Ayanami. 1.0 shows Shinji moving to a new world & slowly finding what could his place there, piloting an Eva pilot alongside Rei Ayanami. Then in the second world we see the happy days at Neo-Tokyo & then Shinji turn his back on all that to find happiness in one vessel of hope - Rei Ayanami.

Come 3.0, both Rei Ayanami - his vessel for hope - & the world he literally turned his back on are both gone. Replaced by something much colder & anti-septic. Over the course of 3.0 Shinji comes to the realization that you can't place all your hopes & dreams for happiness on ONE PERSON, life just doesn't work that way, even people who love you the most will let you down at some point whether through their own intentions or by accident.

Shinji realizes that despite his stupid proclaim in 2.0 of "Ayanami is enough" that the only way to truly live is to have a COMMUNITY around you. No one can live along on a rock. Living along on a rock with one person may work for a while but in the end you'll both crave other people & ideas. Friends, family, associates, co-workers, people need the whole ball of wax. You need people who you can go drinking with, people you can argue with, people you can agree with & people you love & people you hate. Showcasing that community was what 2.0 especially flourished at & it's why when all is said done with Rebuild I have no doubt the "fans" will always view 2.0 as "the best" of the series BECAUSE it wallows in that sense of the variety of human life. 3.0 in turn focuses on the individual. The community is the strange other.

In 3.0, Shinji finally realizes he needs that sense of community again - the very thing he abandoned in 2.0 - but he foolishly latches onto something worse than just one person to attain his happiness. He latches onto an IDEA. A vague one at that. Kaworu, who Shinji does like & feels happy with at the moment, comes to Shinjii with the loosely defined notion of "If we get the spears then everything will go back to the way it was". More than the happy temporary emotions Kaworu brings Shinji, it's that idea of "A Redo" that gives him hope. That Redo is what drives him to foolishly proceed despite all warning signs to the contrary - like Kaworu literally sitting there say "Hey! Don't do it!" - especially since to attain his dream he has to do that one act he hates more than anything in the world now - piloting the Eva.

2.0 gives the viewer that sense of a world Shinji wants to be a part of again. THAT'S the point of 2.0. To show us - for the first two acts at least - the happy, colorful world of Eva you & Shinji have always wanted.

I know I'm the minority here but I've never given two shits about the narrative coherence in Eva. It's always been loose & ill-constructed going all the way back to the first few episodes of NGE. if you want 100% narratively coherent Eva that fills in every loop hole & dots every I & crosses every T then wait until the era of Eva AFTER Hideaki Anno (something I'm sure will happen at some point in the ensuing decade wether by TV series sequel or shitty live action adaptation). For me Eva has always been about emotional journey of the characters. Everything to do with construction of Evangelion Unit XX, Angel #Whatever, Vatican Proposal of MumboJumbo, Gendo's Ultimate Plan of ?, etc have always been pleasant set decoration. Pretty visuals but secondary to the key magic of the universe which is the characters & what they're going through. After showing us the community in 2.0, the third film tightens the focus & is all about Shinji & I'm able to go there with them. I don't care what plot threads are left loose or unexplained. How Wille came to be? Did Mari ever find the right shirt to cup her rather large breasts? When did Gendo decide to switch up to such fancy Daft Punk eyewear? All things I as a viewer don't care about. I'm there for Shinji. The experience of it.

Anywho, I've had my say. This argument is gonna round & round in circles for years. At the very least this complexity & courage/foolishness on Anno's behalf assures 10 years from now people won't just sit down & watch all 7-8 hours of Rebuild in one go & then immediately forget about it as "just a fun watch".

Bring on 4.0!

The problem I have(and that's only my opinion) with your interpretation is that Shinji don't have anything to fight for : Tokyo-3 was obliterated, alongside maybe the rest of the world, and seemingly by his own fault, Rei is trapped in an ungodly biomechanical abomination, and any remaining people he cared for now treat him like a war criminal, oh and the last people who treated him like an human being just had his head popped up by a collar bomb, this time by his fault by sure. Realistically Shinji has nothing left to fight for, and even if the famous place he will find hope in Final is a big Lilin settlement where people survived and are living building a better future, maybe even people he knew from 14 years ago, how could be muster the courage to fight for it, when the last two times seemingly ended in an Apocalypse and a quasi-Apocalypse? And the fact WILLE will never let him get into any active role again, and that he's considered a war criminal.

You see, it's the completely insane disproportion between Shinji's tantrum in 2.0 and his punishment in 3.0 that made many people "hate" 3.0(on top of what I said earlier)
So a teenager make a tantrum because one of his best friends got mauled and decided that Tokyo-3 could go to hell? Then suffer boy! Let's take away anything you cared for! Let's trap the girl you risked everything into an godly abomination! Lets destroy the city you previously wanted to protect and maybe the whole world with it! Lets (probably) kill almost every friends and acquaintances you had! Lets make the one who survived hates your guts and treat you like Satan incarnated!

Come on, that the most insanely disproportionate karma retribution I've ever seen!

The only thing that could make Shinji go forward, or even want to go forward again, in Final is if it's revealed that he didn't had anything to do with the events that destroyed the world. That or if Final had a magic reset button like in the manga. Because without that, I just can't see how Shinji could go forward, a mark of infamy of such level could never be erased, everyone he knows will see him as "the boy who destroyed the world", every relationship he will made with new people will be poisoned by the fact that it's his fault if they are living in this hellish world while most of their family died, instead of living peacefully in whatever place they came from...

That's why in my opinion 2.0(and 1.0) served to present to us the world before the Apocalypse, so that the gut punch from 3.0 could hit us with full force, but not as a karmic punishment for Shinji's teenage tantrum.

Agree to disagree

Looks to me like 2.22 existed to a) fulfill its part in the Jo-Ja-Kyu structure, and to b) be awesome.

Do we learn any relevant plot information in 2.0? Starting to think it failed as a sequel to the story of 1.0. They reintroduced the idea that Angels reaching Lilith = Third Impact, but didn't take it anywhere in the next film.