Does Anno just hate Shinji Ikari?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

Moderators: New Moderators, Board Staff

LordThaeon
Lilith
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 128
Joined: Apr 20, 2012
Location: USA
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby LordThaeon » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:44 pm

View Original PostDarkwing wrote:Granted I don't think Anno's screw ups ever caused nearly as much damage as Shinji's. Or lets put it this way, couldn't Shinji have learned these lessons in ways that didn't cost Asuka an eye, get Rei nommed, Cause 3I, Make Kaworu lose his head, etc? :lol:

Okay I've figured it out. Since all the charecters except Mari are based on parts of Anno's psyche, we can use them as a measure of his feelings about Shinji. So if at the end of Final a majority of the cast mostly hates Shinji, then Anno mostly hates him too.


I'm curious, what lesson was Shinji supposed to learn from each of your examples?

The Bardiel Incident: Destroy your enemy without making any attempt at saving the friend whose trapped within it or else daddy will force you to horribly mutilate both of them?

That was a Morton's Fork Situation. If he had attacked Bardiel, he would've hurt/killed Asuka; if he doesn't attack then Bardiel strikes him because he can't hurt a friend and then the dummy plug activates.

Rei/Zeruel Incident: All Shinji was trying to do was save a friend. Nobody, not even Shinji himself expected that course of action to result in a near-apocalypse. And note how horrified Shinji was when he did realize what he had unknowingly done.

His words about not caring about anything else doesn't equal a desire to utterly destroy the world. At this point, Rei was the only one whom he cared about and who legitimately cared about him. (Apart from Misato whose using him as a tool of vengeance against the angels, Gendo whose a manipulative bastard, and Asuka who he thought was dead) So isn't it logical for him to want to save Rei more than anything else in the world?

Kaworu Situation: Again, Shinji had the best of intentions with the worst possible outcome. He wanted to atone for what he did, but guess what? He only made things worst and Kaworu had to die for some reason to stop from increasing the damage.

There's even a scene during Fourth Impact when Shinji realizes that he's been tricked again and that this impact will kill off everyone whose left. The kid was shocked and horrified, that's not the face of someone who doesn't care about humanity or other people.

In summary: It seems like Shinji's biggest mistake is trying to do something whereas the universe would rather for him to accept that his life is a hellhole where everyone uses him/manipulates him/dies on him.

So what is the lesson? What is he supposed to wise up to?

And on that note, why is Shinji the only one who has to wise up?
FF Profile

"Please explain that again without insulting my intelligence."

esselfortium
Angel
Angel
Posts: 3392
Joined: Aug 21, 2009

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby esselfortium » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:00 pm

View Original PostLordThaeon wrote:And on that note, why is Shinji the only one who has to wise up?

Because Shinji is the only protagonist who has ruined anyone's life or, really, done anything else wrong that's worth noting.

The lesson is "start thinking about other people and stop fucking over your so-called friends with stupid, rash decisions".

pwhodges
A Lilin in Wonderland
A Lilin in Wonderland
User avatar
Age: 74
Posts: 10515
Joined: Nov 18, 2012
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby pwhodges » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:31 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Because Shinji is the only protagonist who has ruined anyone's life

What, no hate for those who set him up to do it, without even letting him know?

Even if you can't stop blaming him for being taken in, surely they're still also culpable.
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?" (from: The Eccentric Family )
Avatar: Relaxing... (details); Past avatars.
Can't wait for 3.0+1.0? - try Afterwards... my post-Q Evangelion fanfic (discussion)

esselfortium
Angel
Angel
Posts: 3392
Joined: Aug 21, 2009

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby esselfortium » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:41 pm

Gendo and Seele are not protagonists. Them and Shinji are the only ones that any of the blame for Shinji's actions can be laid upon, and actually to be totally honest, at least 90% of it still falls on Shinji because he made his own choices, regardless of who made it possible for him to do so. He wasn't forced to do stupid things. Even if you consider him completely blameless for third impact, every bad decision he made in Q could have been easily avoided by using his brain for two seconds.

Legendary
Test Subject
Test Subject
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 2814
Joined: Jun 11, 2008
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Legendary » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:30 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Even if you consider him completely blameless for third impact, every bad decision he made in Q could have been easily avoided by using his brain for two seconds.


In a way, Rebuild Shinji is a horror film protagonist who is in a genre where his actions have more dire consequences than the lives of a few randy teens in a secluded spot.

Grimmjow
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Posts: 390
Joined: Jan 20, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Grimmjow » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:21 pm

It seems that whenever Shinji acts out of his own desires, horrible unknowable consequences result and everyone automatically blames him even though he and the rest of Nerv(besides Gendo) had no idea such an event would result from his actions. Misato cheers him on in Evangelion 2.0, then all of a sudden in 3.0 she treats him in a very cold manner.

It seems as though Gendo has manipulated Shinji's actions for the most part throughout this entire scenario, save for a few hiccups that he could not forsee(such as the Bardiel incident).

Shinji acts when people genuinely care about him, without ulterior motives. Rei was the only one to show him any kind of love. Everyone else merely uses him for their own purposes. Thus, it makes perfect sense for him to want to throw everything away to save her. In his shoes, probably many of us would do the same. The same applies to Kaworu. He cares about Shinji, and Shinji has no idea what to do to atone for his mistakes, so he falls hook, line, and sinker once again for the Fourth Impact Scheme.

Although to be honest, Shinji's actions in Q are probably his lowest. After he learned what had happened, surely he could have thought things through. Then again, Shinji isn't the most logical person in the world to begin with.

Na7e
Bardiel
Bardiel
User avatar
Age: 27
Posts: 795
Joined: Dec 08, 2011
Location: New York
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Na7e » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:25 am

View Original PostGrimmjow wrote:Misato cheers him on in Evangelion 2.0, then all of a sudden in 3.0 she treats him in a very cold manner.


Yeah, because in the same scene she realizes that Shinji's wish is going to end up killing her, and everyone else.

View Original PostGrimmjow wrote:Everyone else merely uses him for their own purposes.


Because Asuka, Toji, Kensuke, and Hikari are such manipulative scum amirite?

View Original PostGrimmjow wrote:Thus, it makes perfect sense for him to want to throw everything away to save her.


See the comment right above this one. It really doesn't make perfect sense. And, NME!Shinji becoming his father isn't exactly the narrative path I wanted to be seen taken.

Ixsiehn
Embryo
Age: 32
Posts: 1
Joined: Apr 29, 2013
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ixsiehn » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:35 am

View Original PostLordThaeon wrote:Kaworu Situation: Again, Shinji had the best of intentions with the worst possible outcome. He wanted to atone for what he did, but guess what? He only made things worst and Kaworu had to die for some reason to stop from increasing the damage.


I just had to make an account just to say something here:
I do not understand why Shinji had to force himself to get the spears when kaworu, who was the guy who gave him the idea that the spears would "save humanity" said that something was wrong and told him not to do it. If that wasnt pure stupidity i have no idea what is.

He may have been in a desperate mindset, but has he not learned from his previous mistakes where just doing things because he wants to without thinking things through would cause dire consequences? did he not just come out from said situation? What made him think it was a good idea to repeat it again?

one-eyed
Sachiel
User avatar
Posts: 226
Joined: Dec 18, 2012
Location: Brasil
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby one-eyed » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:12 am

The reason is pure plot: Shinji managed to block the access of Kaworu! How? It doesn't matter! Everything about this scene is bizarre. I thought he had learned his lesson when he not wanted to pilot Eva and Kaworu had to convince him with Space Jesus Magic.
I think Anno wanted to crush his last hope, even the belief in the supernatural: God, Allah, Buddha, Zeus, Odin, etc will not save him and how Evangelion is a story that repeats he thought: Shinji should do shit again! Anno was not satisfied with a stab; he had to twist the blade a bit more. In the original, all the characters took turns in Anno’s meat grinder (less Gendo that is untouchable), Shinji is now serving as a punching bag alone, but I think that is Rei who is worse off.

FreakyFilmFan4ever
(In)Sufficient Director
(In)Sufficient Director
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 8628
Joined: Jun 09, 2009
Location: Playing amongst the stars
Gender: Male

Re: [SPOILERS] Does Anno just hate Shinji Ikari?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:14 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Yep. Anno hates himself most of all. :devil:

Well, who can you pick on of you can't even pick on yourself?
Live-Action Lofi Hip Hop Radio beats to relax/study to

Details about the making of the video here.

Yokai
Embryo
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 45
Joined: Jan 16, 2013
Location: Portland, Oregon
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Yokai » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:20 am

I'm pretty sure Anno is Shinji. Think of it this way:

As a director, Anno has only ever meant to do what he thinks is right at the time. The ending of the TV series. The End of Evangelion. Kare Kano's adaptation. Everyone else gives him money to make these shows, tells him to "keep at it" right until the shit hits the fan and he is suddenly the enemy. This is probably true for both his colleagues and his fans alike. Shinji and Anno just can't catch a break. So he quits the anime industry for many years. When he comes back, the staff lets him back in but there's probably a lack of trust when it comes to creative freedom. He's probably frustrated by the lack of trust his colleagues give him and his decisions despite his notoriety, or perhaps he has a lingering paranoia that others don't trust him.

In 2.0 and 3.0, Shinji only ever meant to do what he thought was right. Everyone in 2.0 gave him support, egging him on until the very end, and right when the damage or consequences of his actions are shown, everyone holds a grudge against him. When he comes back in 3.0, they let him live but continuously express their discontent and lack of trust. He only ever meant to do good for everyone when he piloted Unit 01, but despite the seemingly supportive gestures in 2.0, everyone makes him out to be the bad guy in the end.

I guess my point is that the transition from 2.0 to 3.0 is probably reflective on Anno's returning to the Anime industry, and perhaps 3.0 as a whole is reflective on how his relationships internally at Gainax were headed before he completely segregated Studio Khara. Idk, just a thought.

Ray
Banned
User avatar
Age: 27
Posts: 6638
Joined: Feb 10, 2014
Location: USA
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ray » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:12 pm

View Original PostYokai wrote:I guess my point is that the transition from 2.0 to 3.0 is probably reflective on Anno's returning to the Anime industry, and perhaps 3.0 as a whole is reflective on how his relationships internally at Gainax were headed before he completely segregated Studio Khara. Idk, just a thought.


So I'm guessing if were going full analogy for Annos life here, in 4.0 there has been another time skip and Shinji is now the leader of his own 3rd faction in the war on Gendo?

In all seriousness though. I believe Anno loves and hates Shinji because he loves and hates himself Anno used to be just like Shinji. . . but now that he's overcome his depression and moved on with his life, he looks back on who he was with a bit of regret. But I think he will have Shinji rise above it all in one way or another before the curtain falls on 4.0, since he managed to do the same.

Just a thought.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

bluehair
Embryo
Age: 23
Posts: 2
Joined: Jan 31, 2014
Location: Arkansas
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby bluehair » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:11 pm

As far as what's been said about the possibility of Shinji being a self-insert, I'm not exactly sure what I think about it.

It's most likely a mix of things that went into Shinji, I could maybe see a large piece of him being Anno's self-image at a certain point in time.

Honestly, though, I don't think Anno hates Shinji. He hates his audience. He also loves his audience.

Essentially, I don't know, and I doubt you do.

wiser3754
Shamshel
Shamshel
Age: 33
Posts: 257
Joined: May 13, 2013

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby wiser3754 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:24 am

Personally, I've always felt that the rebuild is Anno's reaction to fan negativity and criticism the series and movie endured personified as animation and story.

If you notice in NGE, when Misato asks Shinji in episode 1 "Then why did you come here?", his response is "I don't know". Yet in NTE, his response is "I thought if I came here, something good would happen". To me, Misato is a personified NGE fan asking Anno (Shinji) that question with the response from Shinji (Anno) "If I came back to NGE, maybe I can make it better".

Not to reiterate, but looking at the dialogue and actions Shinji commits throughout NTE, especially 3.0, it's a reaction to fan critique to NGE and EOE.
Hell, want more evidence, EOE was released in 1997 and 3.0 was supposed to be released in 2011. 14 years.
You can't tell me with that timeskip in an essentially pseudo-sequel to EOE, coupled with Shinji's (Anno) denial of wrong doing and a death collar (death threats in response to episodes 25 and 26) around his neck with the entirety of remnant humanity (NGE cynics and fans) hating his guts isn't a personal introspective view from Anno.
I watch and speculate.

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 6890
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:10 am

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:If you notice in NGE, when Misato asks Shinji in episode 1 "Then why did you come here?", his response is "I don't know". Yet in NTE, his response is "I thought if I came here, something good would happen". To me, Misato is a personified NGE fan asking Anno (Shinji) that question with the response from Shinji (Anno) "If I came back to NGE, maybe I can make it better".

Take in account that Shinji's answer in NTE, "I thought something good would happen", was what he said in EoE during Instrumentality as the true reason he came to Tokyo-3. So it could be that the fact Shinji said the same thing that in EoE, which was the "end" of his journey, was Anno's indication that in Rebuild Shinji's problems and the focus of the story won't be the same than in NGE.

Also about Rebuild being a response to fan reactions, NGE ended 10 years before Jo was released, and since then Anno became rich, respected, married and happy, so I think that he's now way over fan reactions of his old show.

I think that Anno simply wanted to redo Evangelion with him without being influenced by his depression.
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Warren Peace
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 90
Posts: 1737
Joined: May 28, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Warren Peace » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:19 pm

Before Q came out, there was a lot of chatter about Anno's unambiguous endorsement of Shinji at the end of 2.0. The triumphant song and heroic framing meant Anno was 100% behind his character's actions, of course. Anno should be more damning of Shinji's selfish, destructive behavior, was a common criticism about the ending.

Post Q, the dominant idea now is that Anno hates Shinji and wants him to suffer. Anno won't ever give Shinji a break, they say. From here on out, it's going to be misery on top of misery, because that's all Anno thinks Shinji deserves. He won't ever let the kid do right.

It'll be interesting to see how Final transforms the conversation yet again.

ElMariachi
Le Posteur Verbeux
Le Posteur Verbeux
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 6890
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
Location: France
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ElMariachi » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:48 am

Probably most people will first argue about WTF did they saw! :lol:
Avatar: THE HIGHEST OF ALL HIGHS WE AAAAAAAAAARE!!!
Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

Dataprime
Donor
Donor
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 2507
Joined: Oct 23, 2013
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Dataprime » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:00 pm

Maybe the fans just hate Shinji and therefore saying that Anno 'hates him' aswell
justifies their own hatred even more because nobody actually asked Anno this and everything is all
just fan-wank theory because no one know what that crazy Anno
guy is thinking. Even if he did express his feelings on the matter, fans would say that "he's lying'"
or "it doesn't matter what he thinks, I still hate him!" then we'll be back to square one.

Or I could be totally wrong..

I genuinely love how good Evangelion hurts
- Suicidahlia

She's so cute. Like crazy cute. Like "She's giving me the diabetus" cute. - Gendo'sPapa

Stillborn
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 2466
Joined: Apr 28, 2013
Location: Huge wastebin
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Stillborn » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:27 pm

Or it can be even simpler.

Do you hate a punching bag that you hit? No. It's just a piece of furniture with exact purpose of being hit.

The same can be for Shinji. Anno doesn't need to hate him. He may just be a punching bag for Anno to cure his bad mood/make money. No hate is needed. :shrug:
Another jaded man.
Wciąż stoję nieruchomo, w nieżywym już szeregu. Umieram na stojąco, niech inni giną w biegu.

Ray
Banned
User avatar
Age: 27
Posts: 6638
Joined: Feb 10, 2014
Location: USA
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ray » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:44 pm

Sounds a lot like Shinji's position in 3.0. Just more fuel for the Fan theories.
I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!
Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."
Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.
People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman


Return to “Rebuild of Evangelion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests