Dummy Plug System?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:11 pm

View Original PostA.T. Fish wrote:like it was allegedly done in episode 18 with Shinji still in there, by that logic the dummy plug would never be needed.

As Monk Ed pointed out earlier, Gendo specifies in episode 18 that the command circuit be switched to the dummy plug.
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Postby Ornette » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:50 pm

View Original PostA.T. Fish wrote:That argument cuts both ways, the same could be asked if we consider that the system can be remotely controlled via the software containing Rei's thought patterns, like it was allegedly done in episode 18 with Shinji still in there, by that logic the dummy plug would never be needed.

Pretty sure it was also mentioned in that thread, but I think "by remote control" is like telling it to "kill angel" and not controlling it like an RC plane. It's not remote-piloting as much as giving it commands. Once the command was completed ("kill angel"), it instantly stopped, presumably without anything to do.

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Postby A.T. Fish » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:07 am

Reichu wrote:As Monk Ed pointed out earlier, Gendo specifies in episode 18 that the command circuit be switched to the dummy plug.


What I get from this is that he's taking control away from the pilot and giving it to whatever is inside the dummy plug, but that is still very confusing since the only plug in Unit-01 at the time was the regular entry plug, unless I'm missing something here.


Ornette wrote:Pretty sure it was also mentioned in that thread, but I think "by remote control" is like telling it to "kill angel" and not controlling it like an RC plane. It's not remote-piloting as much as giving it commands. Once the command was completed ("kill angel"), it instantly stopped, presumably without anything to do.


Yeah, that was in one of the older threads linked above, I hadn't read them before, now that I have it became clear just how inconclusive it all is, probably one of those things purposely kept unexplained and to which we'll never get a satisfactory answer.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:20 pm

The dummy plug is precisely what it sounds like; it's a plug that has the dummy system downloaded into it. Control can be switched between the human pilot and the dummy system at any time.

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Postby Lance of LoL » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:43 am

I didn't read everything, so I apologise if I'm just parroting other people.

A Human Pilot is connected to the Eva via the Nerve Circuit.

When control is taken from the pilot, it is put onto the "Dummy Circuit" meaning the Dummy plug, which is modeled after the thought pattern of a Soulless Rei then takes over. The Eva believes it is receiving instruction from it's pilot but it is actually Synchronizing with this new Thought Pattern.

The Dummy Plug is not entirely taken up by the Dummy System, it is that size because it is a fully functioning Entry plug besides. The Pilot sits inside and operates as normal, the different plug is just built with the Dummy System inside.

This is what makes Unit-01 unique. It refused to operate with a dummy plug after initial operation, so they could ONLY use Shinji after this, the other two Evas on hand could be fitted with dummy plugs, but still have Asuka and Rei pilot regardless.

I am unsure if the Dummy System can control an Eva without a pilot inside the plug at least as the only instances of it being activated was with Shinji in the cockpit and the mass produced Evas, who freak the fuck out of me too much to ask.

Now while the Rei Clones are the model for the personality of the Dummy Plugs, I too don't understand how they are the core of this system, maybe their brain is duplicated like the Magi computers, so with all the Reis dead it would be impossible to create more Dummy Plugs, I have no idea, but generally put the Dummy Plug acts just like a regular Entry Plug until the Dummy System takes over, at which point the Eva is controlled by a duplicate of a Clone Rei's thought patterns. What part the physical existence of these Reis play is beyond me.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:50 am

View Original PostLance of LoL wrote:I didn't read everything

And it's only a three-page thread. Come on, now. ;p While I appreciate the honesty, seeing an admission like that doesn't exactly entice me to read through your post, you know.
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Postby Lance of LoL » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:23 am

It's only three pages, but they're looooong. T~T

Fine. *trudges back to page one*

Edit: I HAVE RETURNED!

I left an ignorant and whiny child, I return an enlightened, yet still whiny, man.

So basically one of the major issues here is working out how exactly the Dummy System is controlled. I feel the series actually answers this quite easily for us.

From the Command Centre, not only can all the data on the pilot's physical condition and Sync ratio be monitored, but the plug ejection system, the pressure of the LCL in the plug, seemingly just about everything right down to a defibrillator installed in the pilot's plug suit can be operated remotely.

However, when it comes to actually moving the Evas, Command has never shown the ability to just remotely ship them out, they've always needed a pilot to move them without doing it of their own will. That is to say the Eva never does anything it doesn't want to unless its pilot is the one asking.

Now let's look at Bardiel. Angel focused in the core of Unit-03. Whenever 01 has lost it before, with no input from Shinji, it attacked Sachiel, ate Zeruel and has generally been psychotic. 01 has a disposition for Murderising Angels.

Even if Command can send a remote signal to turn the Dummy Plug on and turn the regular cockpit controls off, after this, after this, the exact mechanics are up in the air.

We have anything from a Hard Disk of Rei's data, her cloned brain or perhaps a fully living soulless clone contained somewhere in the plug.

But honestly, while I could believe it from the Soulless Reis, the behavior displayed by 01 at this time really doesn't match any previous established behavior except 01's.

So I think a couple of the thoughts here are most apt for describing it.

Ze Beast 1.0 was one.

Another was referring to it like a command prompt.

As it stands, the Dummy Plug is more or less that. It can't be said to be piloting it, after all, the MP Evas were frickin' Vultures, nothing like Kaworu. The best that can be said is that it's an interface that takes advantage of the Eva's natural violent instincts, except instead of Shinji taking orders from Central and trying to act on them, the Dummy Plug does it with mechanical precision and Evangelion Brutality.

I think that is the best description of it's function I can muster, and if others agree, that simply leaves the mystery of just how much of the Clone Reis are involved in this process, as opposed to the direct mechanics of the system.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:22 am

Since I believe this is the most recent discussion on the topic, I'm going to bump this thread to refresh the discussion.

For a long time, I was of the impression that the Dummy System was essentially a digital system whose only organic part were in the Reiquarium. However, on reviewing the scene in #23', I find myself leaning towards tabura's original notion and Monk Ed's arguments.

The best evidence for this is the scene in #23', which I think heavily suggests that the Rei's are in fact the dummys in the plugs. I'm using the ADV platinium translations for the dialogue here. The opening dialogue is centred around this idea. Note the imagery being shown as well as the dialogue.

We open with the dark "brain room" shot seen before in episode #17, and earlier in #23'. Misato's opening question sets the topic.

[wkimg]23_304c.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg]23_305.jpg[/wkimg]

Misato: So, this is the source of the dummy plugs?

RITSUKO: I will show you the truth.

[wkimg width=400]File:23 C310 dc comp.jpg[/wkimg]


So we have a question about dummy plugs, then a reveal of the tank of Reis. Note the palette change as well*; the Rei's really are the "big reveal". It's also worth noting that this revelation is in response to Misato's original question about the source of the dummy plugs, not the dummy system. Hold on to that distinction in the what follows.

[wkimg]23_314.jpg[/wkimg]
Misato: You're not saying the Evas' dummy plugs are...

[wkimg]23_315.jpg[/wkimg]
RITSUKO: That's right, the part that becomes the core of the dummy system,
and this is the manufacturing plant for it.

[wkimg]23_316.jpg[/wkimg]
Misato: This is?!

[wkimg]23_317a.jpg[/wkimg]
RITSUKO (OFF):These are just dummies.
And nothing more than parts for Rei.

The dialogue all but comes right out and says it. The Rei's are the dummy plugs. Misato stares throughout at the Rei's, while Ritsuko talks about "parts" and a "manufacturing plant" for them. The analogy of a factory and mass production is clear here, and obviously connected to the "mass produced" Rei's. The factory analogy also makes it clear that the Rei's are not so much a part of the system as they are a output product of it, to be used in the dummy plugs.

This is the big reveal of Nerv's deep, ugly secret; that they are literally growing bodies of human children to serve as disposable pilots. We can also note that the general m.o. of Nerv is to coldly use schoolchildren as expendable soldiers. The unethical nature of the Dummy system was alluded to as early as episode #14, when Maya raised her objections to it to Ritsuko.

Note also that we've been here before**; In episodes #15 and #17, when Gendo had his "warm moments" with Rei, and also where Ritsuko had her first really "sour" moment with Gendo.
[wkimg]15 C259b.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg]15 C260a.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]17 C037.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg]17 C039c.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg]17 C040.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg]17 C041a.jpg[/wkimg]
I speculate that Anno is further accentuating the unethical revelations by involving the audience in the reveal. Up to now, we've been under the impression that this room is Gendo's warm little womb, his secret retreat in Terminal Dogma, where he allows himself to smile at (naked) Rei. If the audience has allowed Gendo even a smidgen of latitude in this, then the revelation that he was all the while surrounded by a fish tank full of vat produced girls makes the audience in some sense accessories to the fact. But I digress on the nature of Gendo's involvement and Hideaki Anno's potential meta-discussions.

The main point is that the Rei's are clearly identified as the "industrial product" of the plant, not an integral part of it. These Rei's are meant to be used in dummy plugs, as artificial pilots, and Ritsuko even refers to them as "dummies" to drive this point home. She also notes that they are parts for Rei as well (I've discussed Gendo enough so...), before she proceeds on here general monologue. But the main point of the scene is to reveal the true horror of what Nerv has been up to down in Terminal Dogma. Many of these points are accentuated by Ritsuko's later destruction of the dummies.

As to how the dummy system works, radio waves, etc, my position would be that that isn't essential. The message of the scene tells us that one way or the other, each of these Rei's is meant for a Dummy Plug, either in it, or with it. They are the expendable organic core of an amoral automated system. That's the message of this scene.

As to how the Dummy system in Eva-01 works against Bardiel in episode #18? It's not really possible to tell. Gendo tells Ritsuko to load "data" into Evas 01 and 02, but could there really be a naked Dummy Rei stashed somewhere in Shinji's and Asuka's plugs? Weelllll.....

[wkimg width=300]File:Shinji-rei-interstice-1.jpg[/wkimg] [wkimg width=300]File:Shinji-rei-kaworu-interstice-1.jpg[/wkimg]

Maybe that's taking things a little too far. We don't have any evidence at all for Rei's being in the dummy plugs themselves, let alone ordinary entry plugs. But I would argue that the dialogue in #23' does show that regardless, the dummy Rei's are meant for the dummy plugs, individually, having been mass produced for that purpose.

*There's a later palette change after the Rei's are destroyed, but I lack the artistic knowledge to know if there is anything to it.
** I tend to think that the orange symboled floor has been removed in #23' to accentuate the reval of the Rei's.
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