Monk Ed: Perhaps we can combine ideas.

I don't think there are clones being hidden in the regular Eva entry plugs. If the show had made a point of the post-DS interior arrays looking suspiciously different, then maybe this idea would have something going for it. But as is, it rests entirely (?) on people assuming that there's plenty of room to hide shit, not on anything substantial.

As you yourself pointed out, Gendo had the Eva's controls switched to the dummy plug. Disregarding my previous hurr-durr brain-on-autopilot comment, there is only one of these in Nerv HQ's possession, the Rei-00 prototype that we were shown in episode 17.



We can posit that the "Dummy System - Rei" software on that big CD thingy enables the interface between Eva-01 and the dummy plug ... & whatever the fuck is inside it. Perhaps a Rei clone does inhabit the dummy plug -- and only the dummy plug -- when it's being used, and, as you suggest, it serves as a fleshy hardware system for Rei's personality data.

The wireless connection in episode 18 would have been possible due to the simulation body experiment, where we see the pilots synchronize with the Evas via proxies. Clearly, however, this is not the preferred way to do things, since they feed the dummy plug directly into Eva-01 in episode 19, rather than using a remote connection again. Whatever the reason for this preference is probably also why letting the Children pilot remotely never caught on.

I'm not talking about singular as in non-plural, I meant as in self-contained.

All she says is, "Kore wa dummy plug no chikara na no?". She's stunned by its power -- what else is there to read into her comment?

Reichu wrote:Monk Ed: Perhaps we can combine ideas.

This is a precious rarity among discussions I get into. I'd ask you out on a date if we ever met.

I don't think there are clones being hidden in the regular Eva entry plugs. If the show had made a point of ...

As you yourself pointed out, Gendo had the Eva's controls switched to the dummy plug. Disregarding ...

We can posit that the "Dummy System - Rei" software on that big CD thingy enables the interface ...

The wireless connection in episode 18 would have been possible due to ...

Clearly, however, this is not the preferred way to do things, since they feed the dummy plug directly into Eva-01 in episode 19, rather than using a remote connection again. Whatever the reason for this preference is probably also why letting the Children pilot remotely never caught on.

I find all of this perfectly acceptable and is something I suggested as a possibility in a previous post. In one version of that constantly re-edited post I reasoned that if the dummy plug was operating the Eva remotely, then that would surely not be the preferred way of doing things because of such risks as jamming, and that's why they would normally insert the whole dummy plug in place of an entry plug.

By the way, in Rebuild (I'm not using this for argumentation, just explaining "where I'm coming from"), the dummy system comes as a bulky attachment onto Shinji's entry plug. That's the kind of thing I envisioned as being the case in the original series, and that's the kind of place where I always imagined the Rei clone being stored, and when I saw it in Rebuild I completely glossed over it because that's how I thought it worked even in the original.

But after reviewing ep13 and reading what you say here I actually like the alternative we have here better, not only because it gives ep13's experiment meaning, but also because it explains why Gendo would bother to change out Rei's entry plug for the dummy plug. Neither of the pure approaches have an obvious explanation for that; on the one hand, if the dummy system is purely remote anyway, why would it matter if the plug inside is an entry plug or a dummy plug, and on the other hand, if the dummy system is always on-board, why would it matter if the plug inside is an entry plug or a dummy plug.

All she says is, "Kore wa dummy plug no chikara na no?". She's stunned by its power -- what else is there to read into her comment?

Remember that the framework of the comment I made was assuming that the dummy plug was A) attached to Shinji's entry plug somehow and B) little more than a remote connection device for the Rei clones who would be staying in the plant at all times. Under those assumptions, the dummy plug and dummy system are two very distinct things, and Maya would understand the difference, so for her to say that it's the dummy plug's power (the dummy plug being just an access point for the dummy system) and not the dummy system's power would be a little weird. Whereas, if the dummy plug was all self-contained, i.e. the dummy system is contained entirely within a dummy plug rather than "outsourcing" its processing, then her comment makes sense to me, and dummy plug/dummy system could be referred to almost interchangeably. ...Not a huge point, regardless. Just a little "This doesn't feel right..." I had.

Monk Ed wrote: ...assuming that the dummy plug was A) attached to Shinji's entry plug somehow and B) little more than a remote connection device for the Rei clones who would be staying in the plant at all times. Under those assumptions, the dummy plug and dummy system are two very distinct things

Not that I disagree that this is the implication, but there is however a bit of a technical hic-cup to this set up.

Signal-lag.

Unless the Eva universe has developed retro-causality (which, of course, could be score 1 for anyone still grasping at the Sequel theory), there would be a time-delay in what the Eva sees and feels, transmits to the clones who are miles away and below in the tanks, for them to meaningfully interpret the feedback, send over their response, and then for the Eva to interpret and act on that response.

EVa-01, didn't really seem that hesitant in its actions. It acted as if someone was immediately commanding it in real time.

The only way I can see to get around this is if the dummy plugs aren't actually in command, but are simply allowing some fall-back mode/intelligence on-board the Eva to take over. Za Beast mode 1.0 anyone?

Alaska Slim wrote:Not that I disagree that this is the implication, but there is however a bit of a technical hic-cup to this set up.

Signal-lag.

I considered bringing this up, and I did mention latency issues in a previous edit of one of my posts, but then I decided that this is the kind of thing that is typically abstracted away in fiction anyway. After all, Gendo was able to call from the frickin' south pole with no perceivable lag.

It's very simple. Personality is required to synchronize with Eva, and you need to copy personality somewhere, so dummy plugs contain the clones (there is no point to build something more complex if you have a system to copy personalities between the clones and a bunch of clones).

Dummy plugs controlled by soulless clones are necessary to control Eva series which generate the artificial third impact (the souls of all the humanity are necessary to transform it into Adam Kadmon or true descendant of Lilith which is angel-like being).

Chuckman wrote:Does the dummy system require clones? I thought the actual dummy plugs were just a machine that can fake a brain pattern and soul somehow, not a clone Rei shoved in there somewhere.

If Kaworu was born of the same process, though, it's logical to assume there's a Kaworuquarium somewhere, though. Of course, if there is, that leads to the obvious question- why wouldn't he just jump to his new body?

Perhaps Rebuild Kaworu is Anno's way of addressing that implied issue.

Souls don't do it automatically, and of course there might be memory issues (in Rei's case at least; she seems to be alone in that regard, so who knows?). Between needing someone to collect his soul and any attached complications I can see why Kaworu wouldn't be blaise about it.

As to whether or not the system needs clones: Ritsuko was pretty clear about the fact that destroying the Rei clones was destroying the dummy system. I don't know why, but it's not exactly ambiguous.

Considering the example of the Magi, we know that advanced computer systems in NGE's world make use of biological components. What better substrate to process Rei's digital piloting data than an identical brain wired up directly to all the necessary systems?

So yeah, there's probably a Rei clone's brain in a jar tucked somewhere in all that gadgetry behind Shinji's seat in the plug.

Somewhat on a tangent, I wonder if there were any souls actually installed in the MP Evas (05-13) after all. The reason I say this is that Kaworu was able to directly control Eva-02 in Ep. 24 because its soul (i.e. Kyoko) "was in hiding". Perhaps the Kaworu-type dummy plugs (image spoilered below) had a similar ability to directly control their MP Evas without embedded souls...

svenge: The MP Evas project ATFs. Thus, there must be souls in the cores.

And souls are easy to come by if you're Seele and constantly bumping people off.

[Merging in a split from "Episode 14 Data Transfer Experiment" since the conversation had taken a distinctive turn back toward this thread. --Reichu]

Chuckman wrote:I wasn't even thinking of that. If you have Rei in there and a dummy plug you basically have to Reis or two dummy plugs, depending on how you look at it. I was thinking it might confuse the Eva's systems regardless of whose soul is in there.

Do we have two Reis or do we simply have multiple parts that make up a whole Rei? If the Rei soul-split theory is true (ie, Rei II bearing a fraction of her own soul while the rest is in Unit-00, and the two come together in the form of Rei III after 23) then I would say that Rei simply synchronizes with herself in Unit-00.

As for the Dummy System being an additional Rei to the equation, I think it's difficult to say; regardless of whether or not Unit-00 was even equipped with a Dummy Plug, I don't believe it can actually be an interchangeable substitute for Rei. In 18, Gendo looks upon the Dummy in action with quite a bit of pride, because it succeeded in its simple job of bypassing the need for a pilot. However, aside from the Eva series with the Kaworu Dummy Plugs, there's no other instance of success; Unit-01 rejects the Dummy Plug in 19. Souls are tricky to work with, I don't think the Dummy System had the technology to actually operate on par with Rei, so is therefore just a doll imitating another doll (the latter doll actually having a soul and consciousness, etc), and another layer in the cake that defines what it means to be a human in this show.

If it informs this conversation at all, it's worth noting that the last time this came up, Reichu and I discerned (by hashing out the evidence for our differing stances) that when the actual physical Dummy Plug is not inserted it must be controlling the Eva remotely via radio waves -- less than ideal due to such issues as latency, which is why the preferred method is to insert the plug, but this also means that you don't have two human brains in the Eva at the same time. This is as opposed to what I'm pretty sure most people formerly assumed (including myself), which is that an actual physical Rei clone was installed in the back of the regular entry plug as a kind of dummy plug attachment (when a whole dummy plug was not used as was attempted in episode 19).

Monk Ed wrote:This is as opposed to what I'm pretty sure most people formerly assumed (including myself), which is that an actual physical Rei clone was installed in the back of the regular entry plug as a kind of dummy plug attachment (when a whole dummy plug was not used as was attempted in episode 19).

That idea always seemed quite silly to me anyways. I've always just assumed the Dummy System is an advanced AI based on Rei's personality and other such data because they unfortunately can only have one Rei, while the Rei clones are simply spare bodies for her soul that occasionally jumps from form to form. Rei herself is essentially a dummy pilot, and can be controlled if it weren't for those pesky emotions and loyalties. The Dummy System is meant to solve that problem, being a complete machine.

Monk Ed wrote:If it informs this conversation at all, it's worth noting that the last time this came up, Reichu and I discerned (by hashing out the evidence for our differing stances) that when the actual physical Dummy Plug is not inserted it must be controlling the Eva remotely via radio waves -- less than ideal due to such issues as latency, which is why the preferred method is to insert the plug, but this also means that you don't have two human brains in the Eva at the same time. This is as opposed to what I'm pretty sure most people formerly assumed (including myself), which is that an actual physical Rei clone was installed in the back of the regular entry plug as a kind of dummy plug attachment (when a whole dummy plug was not used as was attempted in episode 19).

Could you post a link to the relevant thread? I'd like to see exactly how you came to this conclusion.

A.T. Fish wrote:Could you post a link to the relevant thread? I'd like to see exactly how you came to this conclusion.

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/12970/Dummy-Plug-System/

Having read the original thread discussing the matter I came to accept this as the most reasonable explanation:

NemZ wrote:Considering the example of the Magi, we know that advanced computer systems in NGE's world make use of biological components. What better substrate to process Rei's digital piloting data than an identical brain wired up directly to all the necessary systems?

So yeah, there's probably a Rei clone's brain in a jar tucked somewhere in all that gadgetry behind Shinji's seat in the plug.

It certainly is less of a stretch than the proposed "remotely controlled via radio waves" interpretation. As I see it, all the secrecy surrounding the dummy plug and what exactly is in there was a plot necessity, since we're not supposed to know that Rei clones exist until episode 23, after that the assumption that some physical component of those Reis (be it an entire specimen or just a brain) must be used for the dummy system to work seems very plausible.

So when Ritsuko says that the Reiquarium was the "heart" of the Dummy Plug System, she really meant that it was Nerv's source of brains for the dummy plugs?

I believe she meant it was a fundamental component of the system.

riffraff11235 wrote:So when Ritsuko says that the Reiquarium was the "heart" of the Dummy Plug System, she really meant that it was Nerv's source of brains for the dummy plugs?

That's how I always took it. To such an extent that when I heard the alternative I was a bit flabbergasted. To me it was always one of those things that Eva "just gives you blatantly" (to quote someone else).

To be more specific, what I always figured was that the Rei clones were kept there for maintenance, but when it was time to deploy a dummy plug or have one on standby they'd take a Rei out of there and put it in the plug.

A.T. Fish wrote:It certainly is less of a stretch than the proposed "remotely controlled via radio waves" interpretation.

That's what I thought too, but in that topic, Reichu brought up a good point: If there really is a Rei clone or brain tucked behind the pilot's seat, why did they go to all the trouble in episode 19 of trading out Rei's Unit 01 entry plug with the actual dummy plug?

Monk Ed wrote:why did they go to all the trouble in episode 19 of trading out Rei's Unit 01 entry plug with the actual dummy plug?

Could be fridge logic that Anno & co forgot. They wanted to show that bright red thing.
It should be noted that they'd have to remove the usual 01-plug anyway - to get Rei out of it, and, presumably, give her a barf bag, judging by the way she was covering her mouth.

Monk Ed wrote:That's what I thought too, but in that topic, Reichu brought up a good point: If there really is a Rei clone or brain tucked behind the pilot's seat, why did they go to all the trouble in episode 19 of trading out Rei's Unit 01 entry plug with the actual dummy plug?

That argument cuts both ways, the same could be asked if we consider that the system can be remotely controlled via the software containing Rei's thought patterns, like it was allegedly done in episode 18 with Shinji still in there, by that logic the dummy plug would never be needed.