When Shinji rejects the Instrumentality Project, did his decision affect the rest of humanity? I know this question isn't resolved, but Shinji (EVA Unit-01) was supposed to be the medium for which the Instrumentality Project would revolve around. When Rei/Lilith gives Shinji control of the fate of humanity, and he chooses to reject forming a "God", did individuals contained in Lilith's Egg have any choice over their own fate? This is one of the examples where I kind of consider the split theory between EoTV and EoE (I could explain it in another post). In EoTV, the context of the Instrumentality Project was restricted to each individual's decision whether or not to accept it. In EoE, Shinji discards that option, which results in Lilith/Adam's destruction (?), and reappears in what is left of Hakone. All of the other people didn't just come back and pick up where they left off, except their tangible form (within Lilith's Egg) has been destroyed? So then how would Instrumentality still be possible if the vehicle it was supposed to take place in has disintegrated (Had Instrumentality still been possible, it could have spawned endless possibilities of existence, such as the surreal clips from Episode 26)?

Discuss...

Shinji was a "key" of sorts in my understanding of it. Shinji was acting as a "representative" for humanity, so his decision to reject Instrumentality affected everyone else on the planet. Think of it this way: Shinji was the driver, all other humans were just passengers with no means of communication. Had Shinji chosen to remain in the Sea of LCL, no one would be able to come back out again.

In EoE, Shinji was the focus of the ritual, and Lilith/Rei gave him privileged access, presumably as a result. What is clear is that his "Everyone, just die." and "Can I take that back?" were the things that started the tangification and then brought the system crashing down.

In EoTV, he's just an everyman figure, and possibly one of the later ones to break his shell.

Mr. Tines wrote:In EoE, Shinji was the focus of the ritual, and Lilith/Rei gave him privileged access, presumably as a result. What is clear is that his "Everyone, just die." and "Can I take that back?" were the things that started the tangification and then brought the system crashing down.

In EoTV, he's just an everyman figure, and possibly one of the later ones to break his shell.

It always seem to me that the "congratulation" scene in TV world had actually happened in the EoE world as an omitted scene, thus giving a push to the "Can I take that back?" conclusion. In TV, Shinji say goodbye to his mom, much like how he did in EoE - that seems to me to hint at how both TV & EoE are the same universe/continuity.

I've always considered the series Ep.25 and 26 and EoE to be the same event, just different aspects shown. Once can imagine Shinji's (and everyone's) psyche going through Instrumentality would create such a mindfuck storm.

This has been gone over many, many times before in many different threads.

+1 to what Tines' said.

Replicator wrote:So then how would Instrumentality still be possible if the vehicle it was supposed to take place in has disintegrated?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think you're really asking is, "why are these people still all tang even if Lilith/Adam are dead?" If so, I just might have an answer! After all the work of breaking down the egos of all humanity, nobody bothered to do them the favor of bringing them back to their individual states. Instead, we're left with Yui's reassurance that all life forms have to ability to bring themselves back; they simply need to have the will to live and to reform their bodies. Shinji is the first to do this, and thus is the first to return on the beach (as far as the narrative is concerned), eventually followed by Asuka. The rest reside in the blood red ocean, mixed together in their primordial soup and probably still suffering through some of the same type of internal deconstruction we'd seen happen to Shinji. This leaves us with the haunting question of: what if nobody ever will themselves back to their original form? (dun dun dun... the end)

Sachi wrote:This leaves us with the haunting question of: what if nobody ever will themselves back to their original form? (dun dun dun... the end)

I don't know about that, Asuka had the will come back despite all the crap she endured and pretty much lost the will to live for a certain time period, so I'm pretty there are other major characters (and the rest of humanity) that possess the will of not wanting to be soup.

:)

Sachi wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think you're really asking is, "why are these people still all tang even if Lilith/Adam are dead?"

I was actually thinking more of whether or not Instrumentality would still be possible after Lilith/Adam died. There's still the LCL ocean, so what about the people who wanted Instrumentality all along? This is one of the areas where I think EoE may diverge from EoTV.

Mr. Tines wrote:In EoTV, he's just an everyman figure,

The introduction can lead one to think he's simply token, but the implication of control is spread throughout the episode, and was pretty much hammered-in as the reality going by statements from the ending dialogue in 25 (though 'course your YMMV).

By this, I think what we're supposed to draw from episode 26's introduction, is that while they would have liked to have shown the inner-dialogue going on with the other characters, and how they chose to (or not to) live on (a action EoE also implied needed to happen for them to 'come back') they simply didn't have the time. They instead had to marshal their remaining time and resources to focus completely on the focal point of the whole narrative, Shinji, who because of this exclusivity, was now double-hatting both as the protagonist driving the plot forward, and as the given example of how the inner-dialogue for these characters took form.

Feel free to disagree, but I shan't allow you to pass your POV as "fact" Professor.

Alaska Slim wrote:the implication of control

As we can see, he's sort-of in control of his own virtuality -- although other people can and do intrude in order to get him out of the hole he's buried himself in, and join them in the Big Blue Room; and other people can do things like give him a horizontal to work with.

^To imply it's more than just his own world, I don't think I have to say anything more than the final line of 25:

[code:1]Misato: The end of the world that you have lead.[/code:1]

As to the people, well:

Alaska Slim wrote:When you dream, any faces that you see are people you know (or at least know of), and the rather airy dream logic of 26 would seem to imply that this is what was going on with Shinji. His own brain, receiving external input from whatever meta-being Instrumentality had created, wass (sic) talking to him through caricatures of the people he knew... they're prop intermediaries, occasionally meant to represent one idea or view in particular, but mostly just to give a familiar mouth piece that Shinji could listen to without losing all sense of reason.

I always assumed that everyone died accept for Shinji, and that he only brought Asuka back into her physical form because in the end that was he person he truly wanted back. Since they are the only two left would they not have to just re populate the planet hence Neon Genesis? Everyone else soul left the chamber of Gaf and returned to the planet where they will one day be brought back. However I really need to re watch EoE I haven't watched in ages.

There is often a lot disputing about the theory of Shinji and Asuka being the new Adam and Eve. It also somewhat contradicts what Yui said about how anyone come back from the sea of LCL if they have the will power to do so.

muad'dib wrote:Since they are the only two left would they not have to just re populate the planet hence Neon Genesis?

Another take wrote:So Shinji and Asuka take bad, just as Adam and Lilith; and however Shinji and Rei were loved, although they never got it to express freely (Well, Rei says in "The end of Evangelion"). Then Shinji must kill and kick Asuka from the "paradise" so that Rei can enter, who waits for the expulsion of Lilith.

A thread for Adam and Eve stuff here -- http://forum.evageeks.org/post/91487/Shinji-Asuka-is-Adam-Eve-or-Shinjis-Psychedelic-Sunbathe/

Alaska Slim wrote:^To imply it's more than just his own world, I don't think I have to say anything more than the final line of 25:

Ikari's triumph has indeed ushered in a Brave New World -- but the Shinji-centricity is denied by the penultimate line

[code:1]Asuka: This is one of the conclusions.[/code:1]

Just one. Implicitly, of many.

muad'dib wrote:Since they are the only two left would they not have to just re populate the planet hence Neon Genesis?

A common misconception:

"Considering that themes of Genesis pop up all over NGE, the final scene of End of Evangelion leads many to assume that Shinji and Asuka are the new Adam and Eve and are left alone to re-populate the world. But this theory is false if we are to believe Rei and Yui when, during the dissolution of Instrumentality, Rei states, 'Anyone can return to human form as long as they can imagine themselves in their own heart.', and then Yui says, 'All living things have the ability to return to their original form... and the heart to go on living.'"

I've always considered the series Ep.25 and 26 and EoE to be the same event, just different aspects shown.

What is Concurrency. There was a great thread recently:
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/13243/EoTV-EoE-Narrative-Concurrency-Reasons-for-and-Against/

Replicator wrote:I was actually thinking more of whether or not Instrumentality would still be possible after Lilith/Adam died. There's still the LCL ocean, so what about the people who wanted Instrumentality all along? This is one of the areas where I think EoE may diverge from EoTV.

Ah, in that case, yes/no/maybe? It is correct that the two Seeds are now dead, but Unit-01 is also a demi-god with both fruits and could possibly have the potential to kick-start instrumentality at some point eventually. Then there's the question of the other seeds planted throughout the universe, but this is then just speculation. Otherwise, I think it might be at last safe for humanity from this type of threat. They are now left with only themselves to destroy once again.

Shinji and Asuka being the newly established Adam and Eve on planet Earth sends a shiver down my spine. It's one that's very mind-boggling. Can you imagine their offspring inheriting their parents respective mental health issues? Add that to the possibility of interbreeding, and we have majorly fucked up human populace.

Oh well, seems less bad than idea of additional "survivor" coming out of the sea of LCL and being stuck with them. Why is the Adam and Eve theory so popular, anyways? Do people like the idea of toxic relationships and a (newly) screwed-up race of humans?

BTW, I'm embarrassed that I forgot to mention that Rei was also one of the characters that mentioned if one had the will power, they could come back from the sea of LCL. She's my favorite character in Evangelion.

Rei IV wrote:Shinji and Asuka being the newly established Adam and Eve on planet Earth sends a shiver down my spine. It's one that's very mind-boggling. Can you imagine their offspring inheriting their parents respective mental health issues? Add that to the possibility of interbreeding, and we have majorly fucked up human populace.

I think you might want to read the following series of doujin, interesting set when you think of Shinji and Asuka as the new Adam and Eve :)

Just look up "Happy End of Evangelion"

EDIT: ^ ^ ^ My mistake, not the right doujin, I'll fix it after I find the right one. Sorry >w<

I'm probably one of the few people who just can't see Shinji and Asuka together. I'm sorry, I'd rather him be with Misato, which is probably healthier for him, IMHO, as twisted as that sounds.



BTW, is possible that there are other humans who have been "reformed" after the events of EoE. I just can't believe Shinji and Asuka are the only two people on Earth to rise out of the sea of LCL.