What was the point of 2.0 again?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:47 pm

I'm also under the impression that 2.0's preview events happened during the 14 year time skip.

View Original PostMerkaba wrote:I hate hate hate the amount of negativity people have toward it, and 95 percent of people on here, it seems, haven't even seen it.


Where do you see a lot of negativity towards Q? If you mean folks analyzing and criticizing Shinji's actions in Q, that's not the same as hating him.

Granted, a lot of us are waiting to make judgement calls on the film (I know I am, can't wait for a camrip). But so far Q makes things sound like the NME tetralogy is heading in an interesting direction.
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Postby Merkaba » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:53 pm

SSD: I don't mean to sound... I don't know, but... are we reading from the same forum? Nearly every thread I've read on here has people saying negative things about the film. I've read the phrase "jumped the shark" three times, "literally pulling shit out of their ass" (regarding Anno and Co. making the film) and a ton more things about how people just can't believe that this is an Eva story, blah blah blah. To your credit, you're always positive on here. But the majority of things I've read about the movie/plot in general (not Shinji's characterization, though it is tiring hearing people call him a "wet bag of dicks" and a "dumbfuck") are negative, which is frustrating.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:55 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:I'm also under the impression that 2.0's preview events happened during the 14 year time skip.

This will become the new "the dog ate my homework" excuse.
View Original PostJoeD80 wrote:I don't get why the thinking this is somehow scrapping ideas. Everything in Ha still happened; the stuff in the Q preview happened; we even see the results of some of it (Shinji stuck in the Eva, Mark 06 being in dogma, a new Rei, etc.).

Yeah, it happened... off-screen. Who knows, maybe they were kinda planning to animate that stuff, maybe...
View Original PostJoeD80 wrote: Also there is connection to the old series; Kaworu and Shinji on the duet and doing a combo with Unit 13 recalls Asuka and Shinji attempting to sync with the music in episode 9 (also note that Mahiro Maeda actually worked on that episode as an animator!); Kaworu sacrificing himself for Shinji.

The first is more a cameo than a real connection, Kaworu's relation with Shinji is the only thing which comes more or less straightly from the series but if you watch it carefully it plays out differently, there's no "betrayal" from Kaworu, nor Shinji forgets all his issues as soon as he meets him.
Also, "adapting" one single episode (24) is way easier than compressing half NGE into a single film.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:02 pm

Merkaba: Well, 2.0 had TONS of negative criticism as well (whether or not people saw the film), but I think that's unfortunately the nature of fandoms in general--and this Eva reboot in particular. There's always going to be the supporters, the naysayers, and the people in between.
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Postby Darkwing » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:08 pm

Don't take this too seriously, because I didn't when making it up. Here's what I get from 2.0 after 3.0.

If your told to kill someone you care about, do it.

You shouldn't be pissed off about the above. Trying to leave that situation is running away.

Never try to save anyone you care about either. It'll cause bad things to happen, and everyone will hate you.

If you do nothing, it makes things worse.

If you do something it makes things much worse.

Anno could probably get paid if he were to kick the audience in the balls.

Oh, fans can be passionate about things to the point of insanity, but we already knew that.
I'm not sure what I feel about Eva anymore, but I'm pretty sure I don't actually enjoy the series anymore.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:09 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:the problem isn't Ha being pointless/useless, actually Q still uses some premises of Ha, it's Q which is so "revolutionary" that it hardly seems to be the continuation of Ha.
thatisthepoint.jpg

Q is the new material done justice, and because it has discarded so much of Ha, it has rendered as pointless irrelevances all the bad-fanfic bits that got added to it, Cassy Willfore Mari Makinami excepted -- and she makes more sense in the new regime than the old.
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:16 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Q is the new material done justice

If you call "justice" turning Misato into an evil bitch, fixating on the idea that Shinji will inevitably half-destroy the world 10 seconds after boarding an Eva even if he wanted to do the opposite, making up silly plot devices because they have to sell action figures of underage girls.... then we have two very different concepts of "justice".
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby JoeD80 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:59 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:This will become the new "the dog ate my homework" excuse.

Yeah, it happened... off-screen. Who knows, maybe they were kinda planning to animate that stuff, maybe...

I think there were a couple of clues in that preview that those scenes wouldn't exactly appear. There were all the "keep out" and "no entry" subtitles; and the narration was in the past tense (the fortress that has been disposed; Eva-06 that has descended into Dogma; etc.) I need to watch my Blu-Ray again...

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:there's no "betrayal" from Kaworu, nor Shinji forgets all his issues as soon as he meets him.

Wasn't referring to the betrayal...I'm referring to the part at the end of episode 24 where Kaworu tells Shinji he's the one who should survive and not him. He does pretty much the same thing in this film by taking the death collar.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:09 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:If you call "justice" turning Misato into an evil bitch, fixating on the idea that Shinji will inevitably half-destroy the world 10 seconds after boarding an Eva.
Was she just supposed to say "You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!" after all that? We are in post-EoE territory without any touchy-feely interlude now.

With the new setting, characters can change, not always for the gentler, and it's OK, there's a span of years to justify it. Back on topic, it also means that there was no need to do much -- and certainly no need for whole cloth rewrites -- in Ha.
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Postby FluffyBunny » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:15 pm

View Original PostDarkwing wrote:If you do nothing, it makes things worse.

If you do something it makes things much worse.

That kind of situation happens quite often in real life.. no? Perhaps that's the direction where the story is headed.

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Postby Abicion » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:18 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:What have we told you about the reaction images?

Now that I've gotten that out...

View Original PostJayfive wrote:themastermranno.jpg :P

For as much as the Anno trolololol thing gets thrown around in 3.0 discussions, I seriously doubt most of the timeskip-related stuff were even his ideas. I think he just said fuck it after 2.0 and just gave the same incompetent chuckleheads who came up with Operation Let's Put Asuka in EVA-03 (Anno was actually AGAINST that idea when the new kids came up with it during 2.0's production, fyi) free reign to do whatever insane shit they wanted. There was an interview from about a year ago when someone was asking Anno when 3.0 would be finished and even he was like "I don't care, there are other projects I'm more interested working on, leave me alone okay geez."

He's barely involved in the series at this point.

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Postby JoeD80 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:29 pm

View Original PostAbicion wrote:I think he just said fuck it after 2.0 and just gave the same incompetent chuckleheads

Different writing staff. Check the credits:

2.0: Hideaki Anno, Yoji Enokido, Akio Satsukawa, Shinji Higuchi, Ryotaro Yoshikawa, Yoshiki Sakurai

3.0: Hideaki Anno, Yoji Enokido, Kazuya Tsurumaki, Mahiro Maeda


View Original PostAbicion wrote:He's barely involved in the series at this point.

I guess that's why he's credited as the planner, creator, writer, director, executive producer, storyboard artist, and designer, because he's totally doing nothing...

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Postby FluffyBunny » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:38 pm

View Original PostJoeD80 wrote:I guess that's why he's credited as the planner, creator, writer, director, executive producer, storyboard artist, and designer, because he's totally doing nothing...

It can go either way, I guess. It's possible Mr. Anno may be directly involved in everything, and it's also possible he might be just overseeing the production "process" (=business). We would never know unless we hear from an insider.

*edit*
On topic: I do hope that the story is going as Mr. Anno intended. The idea that Mr. Anno is just giving other folks free reign (and cashing in) is a little difficult to swallow.

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Postby JoeD80 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:46 pm

There will be plenty of insider stuff when the CRC book comes out for 3.0. But why one would think the credits aren't accurate is beyond me.

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Postby Xard » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:34 pm

Going by 2.0 CRC's Anno is calling all the final shots. There's larger influence from others because that's his choice too, not because he doesn't care.

Remember Anno said that if he was left to his own devices and the same cast Rebuild could not help going down the road original series did. This is why Mari unlike rest of Eva cast was not based on Anno himself at all and why he trusted on Tsurumaki etc. to define her initial character.


Eva is still his baby and pride and as such he has final word on everything. I think CRC interviews made that fairly clear: he's like Gendo sitting on head of the table checking out what his underlings are planning and discussing but in the end he has the final word on it all.


In original NGE the staff discussions, other writers, storyboarders etc. would have their influence on what ended up on screen but as a final touch Anno would always go through on his own one more time through the script. Director of series always checks out the storyboards by episode directors and does whatever alterations he wants but this sort of final minute callback of script after staff discussion of it is pretty rare.


As far as interview material about Rebuild can be trusted Anno is doing the same, only this time he gives more room for others. Which is, funnily enough, still a creative choice that can be traced back to him as as going full Kubrick micromanager would be.


There's old saying about film and success: if film is success the gratitude and merit goes to whole staff and cast. If film is a failure it is director who assumes the full responsibility.


NME is no exception to this anymore than original NGE was (this is why Anno shaved his head after EoTV - not because he thought ending was bad but because that was his way to carry the responsibility for not living up for what staff and viewers wanted and expected - even if the typical GAINAX production breakdown was fault of staff in general)

View Original PostAbicion wrote:
SPOILER: Show
Image

Image

Image

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kjzKQPU0xM



Boring, worthless sour graping for the most part that has gone on since 2.0 - I mean seriously, people still bitching about Vatican Treaty like it is the wost fucking thing ever? Complaining about it being plot device? Dude(s), half of the things in Eva are nothing more. If one takes the "it's a plot device" angle seriously enough you can run pretty much any series to ground with it, including original Eva.

Touji being pilot of Eva-03 was a plot device to begin with that - strictly speaking - goes against odds.


Out of all complaints one could throw at 2.0 I don't get why it's the most retarded ones people (mostly) keep bringing up. Most viewers of Ha were clearly happy with it as it was but the (astonishingly vocal, then again this is Eva) minority hater squad has acted like a bereaved widow for years and tearing apart everything about the film for reasons that tend to fall under latter in range from "understandable" to "buttmad as if Anno had just molested your daughter". There is not liking a film and finding things to criticize about it and then there's the RUINED FOREVER THAT IS STUPID THIS IS STUPID TOO EVERYTHING IS STUPID emotional meltdown which is what I usually get to witness. Criticize character animation as not as smooth and, uhh, cinematic as often in film projects (eg. Okiura's Letter to Momo for recent example of painfully detailed "character acting" through animation)? Okay, fine, I can understand that. Spam bullshit on /a/ about Rebuild having "shit animation"? Yeah, go cock a pistol in your mouth or alternatively get some perspective not so deeply coloured by feelings of emotional betrayal.


Well, I have no interest in assessin fan butthurt about film I haven't seen yet more than that but some of the complaints about 2.0 are either so pants on heads retarded or based on audience expectations film had no intent or need to address getting those brought up in the same context as 3.0 just deepens my impressions of sour graping like only fans can.

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:I'll keep for myself what I think about wall of text analyses of a film which we still haven't even watched.


If you're going to criticize people for discussing and speculating on film not yet seen don't be a hypocrite about it and leave the subforum
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Postby Nonoriri » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:50 pm

Okiura is more of a perfectionist than Anno could ever dream of being. (^ ^)

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Postby Xard » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:03 pm

View Original PostNonoriri wrote:Okiura is more of a perfectionist than Anno could ever dream of being. (^ ^)


Indeed - wasn't Momo another 7 HAND DRAWN YEARS project, come to think of it?


Too bad that beyond sakuga and vividly portrayed setting Momo was at most a pleasant feel good film with surprising script issues and overlong ending. Still, the way Okiura can make the characters act and express themselves subtly through animation is as astonishing as always. I think that's the aspect I enjoyed the most about Momo. Too bad this just made it Hosoda film not as good as Hosoda films are (or alternatively: Miyazaki film that replicates many of his strenghts but adds faults his output doesn't usually have)


I just hope we don't need to wait another 10+ years for his next film, even if Momo was bit of a disappointment.


Nonoriri, what do you think of animation in 3.0? The footage I've seen so far pleases my aesthetic eye a lot and esp. in terms of character animation (and char. redesign) it feels far more striking than the mushy, much more generic 2.0
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Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Nonoriri » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:19 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:Indeed - wasn't Momo another 7 HAND DRAWN YEARS project, come to think of it?


Too bad that beyond sakuga and vividly portrayed setting Momo was at most a pleasant feel good film with surprising script issues and overlong ending. Still, the way Okiura can make the characters act and express themselves subtly through animation is as astonishing as always. I think that's the aspect I enjoyed the most about Momo. Too bad this just made it Hosoda film not as good as Hosoda films are (or alternatively: Miyazaki film that replicates many of his strenghts but adds faults his output doesn't usually have)


I just hope we don't need to wait another 10+ years for his next film, even if Momo was bit of a disappointment.


Nonoriri, what do you think of animation in 3.0? The footage I've seen so far pleases my aesthetic eye a lot and esp. in terms of character animation (and char. redesign) it feels far more striking than the mushy, much more generic 2.0


Yeah momo was another one of those labored projects, and it definetly shows. I didn't have too many problems with it, it's a fairly straightforward typical narrative with some fun elements and really striking character acting.

As for how I feel about 3.0, the animation in the 6 minute intro thing is solid, the CG is not so offensive to my sensibilities but the close up of Unit 02 is just not very good in my opinion. (;__; Poor Unit 02, the old champion of mecha sakuga is reduced to this iffy looking thing) Elsewhere it was discussed that the whole thing is a bit off in terms of direction, the long tracking shot and the quick cuts and to character reactions and the cut aways are a bit jarring but I don't mind it much. The commercial with the end battle footage looks nice, as I suspected Honda and company interpret Sadamoto's designs in a more appealing way than they had been done in 1.0 and 2.0 without straying too far off from what was established there (perhaps to some fault) But I will need to watch the BD before I entertain any real reactions. I'm looking forward to identifying what cuts Inoue and Okiura did in particular.

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Postby Xard » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:33 pm

View Original PostNonoriri wrote:Yeah momo was another one of those labored projects, and it definetly shows. I didn't have too many problems with it, it's a fairly straightforward typical narrative with some fun elements and really striking character acting.


Don't get me wrong, I don't mean Momo was a bad film. It was pretty nice/decent, it just didn't live up to my expections I was having after some initial reviews from Japan (like Schilling's for Japan Times that strongly argued it was better than Hosoda's newest) and the fact that it was, well, Okiura's first film in forever. I think some of the drama parts were more or less hamfisted and the film should've ended four times over by the time end credits roll came (too bad they had to leave resolution to bridge thing till the very end so :hohum: )

I saw the film in theatre and the general reaction in audience seemed a bit "meh" to it. I seemed to be more impressed than the most but then again in the group I came with I was the only one who obsessively focused on enjoying how Okiura makes the characters move and act to point I didn't mind the story much :lol:

View Original PostNonoriri wrote:As for how I feel about 3.0, the animation in the 6 minute intro thing is solid, the CG is not so offensive to my sensibilities but the close up of Unit 02 is just not very good in my opinion. (;__; Poor Unit 02, the old champion of mecha sakuga is reduced to this iffy looking thing)


Which closeup are you thinking about in particular? I'm fine with how CG looks in it for most part and, well, given the kinetic camera movement + radical unit-02 maneuvering style they went for it really seemed to land the category "only reasonable to do in CG" category.

Then again I'm nowadays generally in favour of CGing mechas as rule because esp. in tv animations the gains by far overwhelm the negatives. When I get good mecha sakuga that's sweet bonus but really, more of a luxury than anything.


View Original PostNonoriri wrote: Elsewhere it was discussed that the whole thing is a bit off in terms of direction, the long tracking shot and the quick cuts and to character reactions and the cut aways are a bit jarring but I don't mind it much.


I had this reaction when I first saw the youtube stream but second viewing (of high quality rip) changed my opinion quite bit. It felt pretty purposefully put together for most part and the Angel fight was nowhere near as confusing as I initially thought it was and instead made sense.

The long tracking shot spinning around Eva-02 in the beginning feels a bit excessive, yeah, but that wasn't too offending either.

View Original PostNonoriri wrote:I'm looking forward to identifying what cuts Inoue and Okiura did in particular.


Same.
ran1: Oh gosh this sentence gave me an internet boner. You're so tsundere.
Mugwump: Goddamn it, Xard! Take me in your arms, you magnificent sex god bastard!
And don't forget to wear the Ran mask.
Eva Yojimbo: You really are the Otaku equivalent of a Catholic and Jew rolled up into one giant dakimakura of guilt.
Gob Hobblin: Sanctimonious, subtly racist, vaguely misogynist, somehow says something while at the same time saying...nothing, really, at all....

Nice, Xard. That's nice.

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Postby Nonoriri » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:41 pm

I may respond in PM as I think we're going a bit off topic here.


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